whence came lavender

Posted by: Henk69

whence came lavender - 11/08/10 12:49 AM

On a german board someone asked how porcelain mille fleur booted bantams were created.
I know how I would create them, but how WERE they created?

Brumbaugh (1972) used porcelain millefleur as a source of the lavender gene.

So when did the lavender gene pop up and in which breed and pattern?
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: whence came lavender - 11/08/10 03:28 AM

According to Wikipedia:
The lavender gene was first discovered in the Porcelain variety of Belgian Bearded d'Uccle bantams in 1972, and verified in 1980 (Crawford 1990, p. 139-140). Porcelain colored d'Uccle bantams were around as early as early as 1909 (La Basse-Coeur du Nord 2008), though the Porcelain variety was not recognized by the APA until 1964 (belgianduccle.org). Whether from the Porcelain d'Uccle or other, unknown sources, the lavender color has been introduced to a number of new chicken breeds over the years, including the Polish and the Silkie.
Posted by: Hen-Gen

Re: whence came lavender - 11/08/10 07:28 AM

Thats imformative. I'd always imagined the Lavender Araucana was the source.
(Though never convinced by the folklore of South American chickens, the Spanish Armada and ship wrecks off Orkney)
Posted by: Bushman

Re: whence came lavender - 11/08/10 08:00 AM

This is just further evidence that South American araucana stock had long since been corrupted by interbreeding with European chickens prior to their ever being exported to the U.S., Europe, or anywhere else. The O gene being dominant can be introduced to the gene pool any kind of chicken. So how could anyone determine conclusively what was or is an "original" blue egg chicken?
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/08/10 08:18 PM

The question is .. Is lavender a mutation of blue? In former times they were called "blue mille fleur" in Germany, so there was a believe the blue results in Porcelain. Could Porcelain be bred true in former times, or was it an incompletely dominant "blue"?
Posted by: Sonoran Silkies

Re: whence came lavender - 11/08/10 10:50 PM

Blue mille fleur is not the same as porcelain. Blue does not dilute gold, and the hue of lavender diluted gold to is not really the same as that of gold diluted by Di or ig. I suppose you could use of of these in addition to blue to make something similar to porcelain, but I do not think it would look the same.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/09/10 12:45 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcap
The question is .. Is lavender a mutation of blue? In former times they were called "blue mille fleur" in Germany, so there was a believe the blue results in Porcelain. Could Porcelain be bred true in former times, or was it an incompletely dominant "blue"?


Lavender is not another allele of the Andalusian Blue gene/locus... wink
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/09/10 08:12 AM

But maybe a mutation/polymorphism? Of what? Of melanophilin on Chromosome 7?
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/09/10 11:05 AM

I don't recall that the Blue gene is pinpointed to anything.
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 11/09/10 05:09 PM

I did tried to research the timeline /history of the Lavender gene many years back, but didn't get very far, & had problems deciphering the different variety names in Europe (eg, 'porcelain' can have the meaning of 'millefleur' colour/pattern, 'self blue' can mean lavender, etc).

From a previous post:

Quote:
Lavenders were sometimes called Reynold’s Blue in Europe, after Dr E. Reynold, Switzerland. Dr Reynold determined the following:
  • the Lavender trait is different to Blue (Bl)
  • it is recessive,
  • it dilutes both black/gold &
  • the Porcelaine variety has the gene.

He suggested the trait to be given a name other than “Blue”, so as to avoid confusion with Andalusian Blue (he didn’t suggest Reynold’s Blue, lol).

The above information is from an article reprinted from the American Bantam Association 1940 yearbook. A final word from Dr Reynold:
"It has been well known for a long time".


From memory, the Belgian d'Uccle breed was developed around the turn of the 20th century (early 1900's?), ie not a very old breed. Maybe lavender was in d'Anvers (the source of lav in Belgian Bearded Bantams)?

I was chasing the line of inquiry that maybe the Blue Belgian Game had the lavender gene (from memory, described as 'self blue' in phenotype), but couldn't determine from text if this was due to the Bl - blue gene without lacing genotype (ie no Pg/Ml in genotype?).

Hen-Gen, from memory, I recall reading an article of how the Lavender Araucana was developed in the UK (ie outcrossed -lav introduced to Araucana), but can't find the article at the moment (thought it was at the Araucana Poultry Club of Great Britain website, but couldn't find it). Lavender Araucana bantams were developed in Australia by crossing Araucana with Lavender d'Anvers.

I did try emailing Dr Hans Schipper (a poultry historian) years ago, but at the time he didn't know offhand the circa of when the Lavender mutation appeared in history. I did look at the poultry history sections of various books, but couldn't determine from these when lav arrived.

So, of little help wink
Posted by: Marvin

Re: whence came lavender - 11/09/10 05:57 PM

Originally Posted By: Sonoran Silkies
Blue does not dilute gold


I Beg to differ Ma'am

Originally Posted By: Bushman
Was it a secret that Bl lightens phaeomelanin? I have noticed that in my wheaten and blue wheaten bantams for the last 30 or so years.


Originally Posted By: Marvin
[quote=Sigi]ER/Bl only no ig or S/s+ just gold diluted by one dose of blue





Originally Posted By: Marvin
Lemon Splash OEGs notise that they are diluted even more
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 05:45 AM

Marvin,

Note that they are birchen based, which also flattens gold groundcolor a bit (imo).
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 10:37 AM

Originally Posted By: Henk
Note that they are birchen based, which also flattens gold groundcolor a bit (imo).


Hmmm, I'm working with a theory, that it can be totally opposite. I have posted some pictures on November 02. in this thread.

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88862&page=8

If it is assumed , that there is no Mh in them, what can be the cause of the darkening of the gold in the hackles?(any potential 'red enhancers' were already in e+ birds)
Posted by: Sonoran Silkies

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 10:50 AM

Originally Posted By: Marvin
Originally Posted By: Sonoran Silkies
Blue does not dilute gold


I Beg to differ Ma'am

Originally Posted By: Bushman
Was it a secret that Bl lightens phaeomelanin? I have noticed that in my wheaten and blue wheaten bantams for the last 30 or so years.


Originally Posted By: Marvin
[quote=Sigi]ER/Bl only no ig or S/s+ just gold diluted by one dose of blue





Originally Posted By: Marvin
Lemon Splash OEGs notise that they are diluted even more
How is it determined that there is no other dilution present? And in either case, the dilution is not nearly as much as lavender dilution. How do you account for
or
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 11:10 AM

Blue will not make the red/gold any darker (optically), that's for sure.
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 11:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Redcap
But maybe a mutation/polymorphism? Of what? Of melanophilin on Chromosome 7?


Does anyone know, whether blue and lavender are a derivate of melanophilin on Chromosome 7??

It is a little bit confusing, what I can find in WWW.
Blue in dogs, cats and mice (I have to guess, that it fit to blue chickens aswell) is due to melanophilin. (Or is the blue of coated animals rather comparable to lavender?)
And lavender in chickens, is also effected by a SNP of melanophilin. So is there a mutual origin??
Posted by: Bushman

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 11:30 AM

Sonoran Silkies asked: "How is it determined there is no other dilution factor present?"
My reply to that would be: Thirty some years of experience breeding wheaten and blue wheaten. When you cross the two varieties you get about half of each. The red in the blue wheaten siblings is always at least a shade or two lighter than in the wheatens - both male and female. It is most noticeable in the hackles. The same empirical evidence was noted when mating Blue Laced Red Wyandottes with Golden Laced though the difference was not as pronounced. The red was a deeper shade in the Golden Laced siblings. The two pictures used to make your point are comparing apples with oranges.
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 12:07 PM

Redcap, there is an information about it in this thread(October 29, posted by Black Feahter)

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88951&page=3

Chromosome 7
- Lav : MLPH (melanophilin)
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 01:57 PM

Lav is comparable to blue in dogs, leaden (not the D-locus) in mice; so mammalian D-genes differ... wink
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 01:58 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcap
But maybe a mutation/polymorphism? Of what? Of melanophilin on Chromosome 7?


Yes, i know, but blue is also called simultanously with melanophilin. So what says us that?? Is blue also on chromosome 7??
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 02:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Redcap
Originally Posted By: Redcap
But maybe a mutation/polymorphism? Of what? Of melanophilin on Chromosome 7?


Yes, i know, but blue is also called simultanously with melanophilin. So what says us that?? Is blue also on chromosome 7??


By who? smile
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/10/10 02:58 PM

By my "Big Brother".
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/11/10 01:20 AM

Which one to pick?
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/11/10 03:04 AM

According blue dog coat ...

In mice melanophilin is found on Chromosome 1
http://www.hiiret.fi/eng/breeding/varieties/blue.html
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 11/11/10 05:36 AM

You know that lav & Bl are not alleles, otherwise the following would not be possible:

lav/lav, Bl/Bl

I haven't come across any linkages for the Bl locus (to give an indication of what chromosome). lav is 32.5 map units to rosecomb, & rosecomb is 0.4 cM to creeper -Cp (so lav similar distance -approx 33cM to Cp).


Yes, in various species, the homolog genes can be found on different chromosomes. Eg, the sex chromosomes in avian species have a different evolution to sex chromosomes in mammals. The brown (b) mutation (TYRP1 locus) in dogs is on an autosomal chromosome, but the brown (br^b) mutation (TYRP1 locus) in quails is on the Z chromosome (ie sex linked). The choc gene in chickens - sex-linked also. Bleu (lavender) quails were crossed with lav chickens and produced lavender phenotype (ie probably MLPH homologs). So, probably wiser to look to more closely related species (especially avian). Similar chicken blue phenotype mutation & incomplete dominant inheritance are in ducks. Two blue mutations in Turkeys, one recessive (sl - Recessive Slate), one incomplete dominant (D - Dominant Slate). But I don't know if any of these have been DNA sequenced.

Blue/grey phenotype mutations are sometimes found on the PMEL17 (or SILV) locus (I - Dominant White locus), eg I^S - Smoky in chickens, Z silver (silver dapple) in horses, M (Merle) in dogs, etc. Dc (Dilute - Charolais) in cattle is another one on PMEL17, & is the odd one out in that it dilutes both eumelanin (to grey) & phaeomelanin (to orange) with one dose (incompletely dominant gene). But, we know Bl is not on the PMEL17 (I) locus also (can have Bl/Bl I/I in a single bird).

I suppose you can't rule out translocations, but usually there are similarities with homologs, eg similar inheritance mode, similar bio-chemistry, etc. The lav mutation is very different to Bl on both accounts. MLPH mutations in other species have more similarities to lav in chickens, than lav has to Bl.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/11/10 09:48 AM

Gene symbols (ABCDE system) are not analogous/homologous between species.
Why would chromosome numbers be? wink
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/11/10 11:16 AM

Err ... there is a difference between analogy (phenotyp) and homology (genotyp) ... and there are many analogies between species ... and ooh wonder there are analogies in the abbreviations for the alleles of the colours ... but what do I know in comparison with You ...?!

In fact I and obviously noone else here don't know on which chromosome blue can be found and which carrier protein (melanophilin has been excluded in the last postings) does play a role, finally.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/11/10 11:36 AM

I think you know a lot, judging by your recent posts, but there are some stubborn personal truths out there smile. I thought I saw one there... wink
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/11/10 11:52 AM

I just want to understand the origin of the mutation of lavender ... and so far I don't ...


I just know that there are many neurophysiological homologies between species ... so I expect that there will be others ... inside the DNA ...
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/2007/1954058.htm
http://avianbrain.org/nomen/Chicken_Atlas.html
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/11/10 01:39 PM

If you want you can elaborate. Doesn't need to be about chickens...
Posted by: Black Feather

Re: whence came lavender - 11/12/10 03:01 AM

Hello,

It has been said in previous posts, but I can summarize :

Lavender is a mutation in the gene called Melanophilin (MLPH), on the chicken chromosome 7.

The MLPH protein plays a role in the transport of melanosome (containing melanins) from melanocyte to keratinocyte. A mutations in the gene coding for MLPH can lead to impaired transfer of melanin (as patches of pigment instead of regular distribution).

Many mutations in MLPH gene have been characterized in other species : dog, mink, cat, mouse, rat, human, quail. They are all dilutions of melanins (from black to blue-grey, from red to buff or cream), sometimes called blue in these species.

But the Blue locus in chicken is different. It is not a mutation of MLPH (Lav), nor PMEL17 (I). There is an indication that the phenotype called 'Silver' in Quail (gene MITF) is homologous to chicken Blue phenotype :

Silver Quail

About similarities between species, it's worth to note that the mutation corresponding to type III Griscelli syndrom in human is identical to the mutation observed in chicken lavender (same change in DNA and in the MLPH protein).

I don't think we know precisely the geographic or breed origin of lavender phenotype (as we don't know when appeared most of the variations in chicken).
Posted by: Sigi

Re: whence came lavender - 11/12/10 05:16 AM

Okay now my contribution, in ordinairy people language, for what I understood of this:
lav is different from other dilutions because it prevents the pigment to enter into the keratine because it got stuck in the filaments, a spaghetti kind of structures which push the pigment to the dendrites where the bridge is between pigment production cell and the keratine (feather stuff) cell.
Because of this traffic que, the pigment enters the feather in a weird way, not evenly, therefore the little transverse bars you can see in lavender feathers. Best seen in hackle.

The other diluters.
Black diluters: dun colour,choc, blue, are not correctly melanized pigment granules due something which prevents the pigment granules to colour totally into black. This has to do with a proteine and a so called 'oxidation' (tyrosynase is obtructed or something like that, in the absence of cysteine).
The amount of pigment (number of granules) is in these dilutions the same as when there was no oxidation. Its the colour of the granule which changed, not the amount of pigment.
In lavender its the amount of pigment granules which is unaltered in colour (black, red) itself, which makes the lighter colour to our eyes.
For red dilutions the same oxidation thing happens except for silver which prevents pheomelanine to enter the feather in the S/s+ version, and therefore the yellow colour, which should be similar to the way lavender prevents red/gold to enter the feather.

The difference with other animals compared to chickens, is that in other animals a dilution of the coat is caused by a 'lavender-like' action (in some species called agouti), and not because of the change of colour of the pigment granule itself.
This is comparitive genetics and for what I understood there are different names for the same things. There is no agreement in how to call things in different animals, so there might be different names for the same actions.

How about this 'simple wisdom'? Please correct me.
I prefer normal stupid-people explanations above complicated language.


PS. sex linked imperfect albinism seems to be the same as the 'lavender-like' action.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/12/10 01:14 PM

I have doubts about the amount being unaltered in these diluters.
Splash and khaki are too light imo.
Posted by: Sigi

Re: whence came lavender - 11/12/10 03:33 PM

Those are not fluids, lavender is a fluid...
Posted by: Sonoran Silkies

Re: whence came lavender - 11/12/10 06:15 PM

I am interested, but barely following the discussion; way too technical. Which of course means I want to learn the technical aspects and have a better understanding. Any recommended resources?
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/13/10 03:57 AM

Originally Posted By: Sigi
Those are not fluids, lavender is a fluid...


You lost me there.
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 11/15/10 09:16 AM

Thank you Black_Feather smile

Very interesting research. Handy are those Quail x chicken hybrid experiments (now Silver x Blue).

As the Silver Quail journal paper mentioned that the MITF gene has been sequenced in Gallus, I imagine it won't be long before the chicken Bl allele is DNA sequenced - tested for a MITF mutation?

Thanks again.
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/16/10 11:10 AM

Originally Posted By: Black Feather
Hello,

It has been said in previous posts, but I can summarize :

Lavender is a mutation in the gene called Melanophilin (MLPH), on the chicken chromosome 7.

The MLPH protein plays a role in the transport of melanosome (containing melanins) from melanocyte to keratinocyte. A mutations in the gene coding for MLPH can lead to impaired transfer of melanin (as patches of pigment instead of regular distribution).

Many mutations in MLPH gene have been characterized in other species : dog, mink, cat, mouse, rat, human, quail. They are all dilutions of melanins (from black to blue-grey, from red to buff or cream), sometimes called blue in these species.

But the Blue locus in chicken is different. It is not a mutation of MLPH (Lav), nor PMEL17 (I). There is an indication that the phenotype called 'Silver' in Quail (gene MITF) is homologous to chicken Blue phenotype :

Silver Quail

About similarities between species, it's worth to note that the mutation corresponding to type III Griscelli syndrom in human is identical to the mutation observed in chicken lavender (same change in DNA and in the MLPH protein).

I don't think we know precisely the geographic or breed origin of lavender phenotype (as we don't know when appeared most of the variations in chicken).


Here You can get the whole paper
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2156-11-15.pdf
Very interesting to see the "silver" quail-chicken hybrids!
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 11/17/10 06:36 AM

The following paper has the bleu (lavender) quail x lavender chicken hybrid photos:

Testing Homology of Loci for Two Plumage Colors, 'lavender' and 'recessive white', With Chicken and Japanese Quail Hybrids:
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/93/1/73.full.pdf
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: whence came lavender - 11/19/10 04:10 PM

According to this article:

http://www.leghorn.nl/artikelen/Isabel%20patrijs-UK.pdf

lavender leghorns(isabel) popped up spontaneously in Germany in seventies in a flock of gold flitter browns.The same mutation again or a different one(rhetorical)?
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/20/10 03:07 AM

Those leghorns have a very untypical shade of lavender imo.
Since leghorns are synonimous with dom.white, you can guess what I am thinking.
Posted by: Hen-Gen

Re: whence came lavender - 11/20/10 05:37 AM

I can't Henk. Please articulate your thinking.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/20/10 09:20 AM

There is another purebreeding "blue" out there.
It is unknown what effect it has on pheomelanin.
Posted by: Sonoran Silkies

Re: whence came lavender - 11/20/10 11:24 AM

Smoky
Posted by: Hen-Gen

Re: whence came lavender - 11/20/10 11:42 AM

Now I understand. An allele of dominant white. Has it been identified in any breed other than Silkies? Are you theorising that because Leghorns have I then this could mutate to smokey more easily than could i+?
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 01:50 AM

The following - Smoky I^S:


Photo originally from R. Okimoto. I think Ron tested I^S effects on phaeomelanin? I.e., my impression was that I^S was similar to Bl - no/little effect on phaeomelanin. He had some concerns with the release of I^S to exhibition/backyard breeders, as he thought I^S might replace Bl (eg, easier to breed true-breeding Blue Reds, etc with I^S/I^S instead of Bl/bl+).

But that doesn't mean that a similar mutation on the I (PMEL17 ) Dominant White locus couldn't produce dilution of both phaeomelanin & eumelanin.
--------------

Before reading your post Henk (re Leghorns), I also thought the first Leghorn rooster looked unusual for lavender (very patchy in shades of lavender), but just put it down to my poor blurry eyesight smile . Good to know its not just me wink

The Leghorn rooster in the middle of the document has wing patches - ie a trait common of lav/lav, but could be different lines.
I suppose another possibility is another spontaneous mutation on the lav locus, a mutation very similar to lav.

The Brahma look typical lav/lav.

Are the Dutch Isabel Patridge Leghorns related to the German Leghorn lines?:
Noordshow 2009 Isabelpatrijs
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 02:33 AM

Yes, they are related. And the wing patches are a strong argument for lavender.
As to pheomelanin dilution of smoky. 2 doses of dom.white also are inhibiting expression of pheo, but not to the degree of lavender.

Hen-Gen,
Smoky is a revertant of the dom.white mutation. So something changed in the dom.white allele to counteract its own effect.
To arise from the wildtype i+ allele, would be a 2 step process.
Posted by: Hen-Gen

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 03:21 AM

Originally Posted By: Henk69


Hen-Gen,
Smoky is a revertant of the dom.white mutation. So something changed in the dom.white allele to counteract its own effect.
To arise from the wildtype i+ allele, would be a 2 step process.


Thankyou for that information. It is news to me that the smokey allele had been characterised to that extent. It certainly makes your earlier statement entirely logical.
Posted by: Hen-Gen

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 03:25 AM

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
He had some concerns with the release of I^S to exhibition/backyard breeders, as he thought I^S might replace Bl (eg, easier to breed true-breeding Blue Reds, etc with I^S/I^S instead of Bl/bl+).




How odd!
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 04:02 AM

Originally Posted By: Hen-Gen
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
He had some concerns with the release of I^S to exhibition/backyard breeders, as he thought I^S might replace Bl (eg, easier to breed true-breeding Blue Reds, etc with I^S/I^S instead of Bl/bl+).


How odd!


I suppose I should of explained it better. Ron was concerned about gene preservation, ie concerned of losing / reduced Bl gene pool.

R. Okimoto:
The Coop - Rokimoto_Smoky chickens, what breed?
Quote:
Smoky can be a true breeding gray. With red modifiers it can be a true breeding chocolate milk color. So it would be better for these color patterns than Dun is. It should also make a true breeding blue red possible.

The only problem with Smoky is that if you believe in breed preservation these color types will become obsolete using the old Blue and Dun genes that do not breed true, so I don't really advocate widespread distribution, but you can't stop progress. Once it becomes established the old breeds will be in the minority because not very many backyard breeders are going to pass up the chance to not throw away 1/2 of their progeny because they can't show them as that color.

The breeders of blue reds will be very happy because Smoky doesn't dilute red. As an allele of dominant white it dilutes black more than red. Blue laced reds could breed true etc. I guess it isn't a current worry because it will probably take 20 to 30 years before it becomes a problem. By that time they may have two standards and you will have to tell the judge the genotype of your birds with a DNA certificate of authenticity to determine what category they are in.


Further on what stock the Smoky mutation was found...

R. Okimoto:
Quote:
Smoky was a mutation found in ADOL Line 0. This is a non inbred line that does not have any intact avian leukosis subgroup E retrovirus in their genomes. It is a White Leghorn line derived from a mix of commercial sources. It is segregating blue, and recessive mottling as well as having birchin and sex-linked barring and silver.
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 04:15 AM

Here's the journal paper which includes the sequencing of I^S, I^D & I.

The Dominant white, Dun and Smoky Color Variants in Chicken Are Associated With Insertion/Deletion Polymorphisms in the PMEL17 Gene (2004)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448810/pdf/7995.pdf
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 05:53 AM

Couldn't it be a homozygous I^D/I^D?



http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_eumeldiluters
Posted by: Sonoran Silkies

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 11:41 AM

I^D/I^D is a light brown, not at all like lavender (or blue). The last two photos show a splash and a couple of blues along with khaki birds.
Posted by: Poultch

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 03:41 PM

Originally Posted By: Henk69
Those leghorns have a very untypical shade of lavender imo.

I thought this aswell

Originally Posted By: Henk69
Since leghorns are synonimous with dom.white, you can guess what I am thinking.

but since you mentioned dominant white, I thought of a paint like influence. Could these leghorns be lavender e+ paints???
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 05:08 PM

In my opinion they look e+ lav to me




Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 06:18 PM

I'll quickly go through what I find unusual about these Leghorn roosters.



1: - Very uneven shades of lavender on the tails. Usually lav/lav are a more even shade, eg:

-------------
2: - Much darker shade of lavender/blue in the wing bar (& patchy).
-------------
3: - The breast. Once again, not even shades throughout, very patchy.
-------------
4: - The outer view feather shafts seem to be mostly dark, ie not the typical light feathers as required in exhibition lav/lav birds.


They look closer to lav/lav Bl/bl+ lavender/blues, but I don't think genetically they are this.
-------------

I would put my money on another mutation allele of the lav locus (because of wing patches in some, but slightly different phenotype to lav), or lav/lav with unidentified modifiers.

Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 11/21/10 06:46 PM

P.s. - would be easy to test breed for locus.

Smoky I^S is dominant over I - Dominant White, in both chick down & adult plumage (ie, only takes one cross). But keeping in mind that another unidentified bluish mutation on the I locus may have a different inheritance mode.

Blue Bl is masked by I - Dominant White, therefore one cross of I/I bl+/bl+ to blue phenotype bird would indicate if blue or smoky (white eumelanin chick if blue Bl (maybe some blue patches in offspring)).

As it was stated that this is a recessive mutation, test Isabel Leghorn to known lav/lav line (eg in Belgians, etc) -if all lavender offspring produced, probably lav or lav locus allele. Then I would test further & see if both phenotypes can be segregated out (& at what ratios, ie see if two alleles).
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/22/10 12:34 AM

The dutch article mentioned the same (patchy) feather quality problems as in lavender, if I recall correctly (after forgetting it at first wink ).
But the hens could be silvers. Note the dark red near the head; imo looks more like red action on a silver.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/22/10 12:38 AM

Originally Posted By: Sonoran Silkies
I^D/I^D is a light brown, not at all like lavender (or blue). ...


Disagree. I^d/I^d and lavender look a lot alike, as does platinum.
In your silkies there may be autosomal red or just groundcolor leaking through, plus Fm of course.
No offence, but silkies are bad genetic mules... wink
Posted by: Hen-Gen

Re: whence came lavender - 11/22/10 03:18 AM

I'll remember that phrase; 'genetic mules'.

Thanks, KazJaps, for the reference to the paper about the alleles at the i+ locus.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/22/10 12:10 PM

Originally Posted By: Hen-Gen
I'll remember that phrase; 'genetic mules'.


I mean this as "animals burdened with genetic experiments" not the sterile bit.
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: whence came lavender - 11/22/10 12:45 PM

Originally Posted By: Kazjaps
As it was stated that this is a recessive mutation, test Isabel Leghorn to known lav/lav line (eg in Belgians, etc) -if all lavender offspring produced, probably lav or lav locus allele


I'm not quite sure about the 'lav locus allele' part. Do you mean that 'lav/another lav allele' would still produce lavender phenotype?
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/22/10 01:54 PM

Yes, 2 defective genes do not make a functional pair. In general.
Posted by: Sonoran Silkies

Re: whence came lavender - 11/23/10 11:42 AM

Well, my khaki's (or at least some) do carry gold or golden, as I can see some leakage, but looking at fawn silver duckwing OEGBs at various shows, which should be pure silver, they are a taupe hue, not at all a bluish hue.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: whence came lavender - 11/23/10 12:58 PM

fawn silver duckwings are one dose dun. Khaki silver duckwings would be almost white.
Posted by: Sonoran Silkies

Re: whence came lavender - 11/23/10 04:10 PM

hmmm, so breeding could/would produce khakis as well? BTW, I do agree that the dun is not yet sufficiently stabilized in my birds to have eliminated all sorts of genes that could mess up phenotype. Maybe in a decade, lol.
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: whence came lavender - 04/25/11 07:30 PM

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
I was chasing the line of inquiry that maybe the Blue Belgian Game had the lavender gene (from memory, described as 'self blue' in phenotype), but couldn't determine from text if this was due to the Bl - blue gene without lacing genotype (ie no Pg/Ml in genotype?).


I found my original source of information on Blue Belgian Games (Bruges Game):

Jeffrey, F. (1977) "Bantam Breeding and Genetics", page 202 (under 'Self Blue' heading).
Quote:
Price (1957) reviewed the literature up to that time and reported as follows:

The oldest blue feather coloring of poultry is the true breeding Belgian Blue, found chiefly in Continental large fowl, but also in bantams and ducks of Belgium and Holland. This is the non-laced blue that existed for centuries in the Bruges gamefowl. This class of feather coloring is known under such names as Belgian Blue, Self Blue, Non-laced Blue, True-blue, Even-blue, Pure Blue, Pigeon Blue, Gray Blue, Tru-breeding Blue, Recessive Blue, Stay-blue, and White-blue. In England it is called Self Blue.

It is a recessive color when crossed with black....


Ref:
Price, H.H. (1957). "Blue Feathered Fowl Breeding". ABA Yearbook p. 104.

But, the only blue phenotype I've come across in Bruges Games appear to be Bl - blue, not lavender. Some have been non-laced blue (pg+-ml+), but still not lav/lav. Eg, the following Lemon Blue Bruges Game bantam:
http://users.telenet.be/jaak.rousseau/english%20version/KRIELEN/brugse_vechtkriel.htm
Posted by: Redcap

Re: whence came lavender - 09/27/17 06:51 AM

In this Book from Crew (1925) it was mentioned that Dunn (1920 - or 1922?*) wrote about the incidence of true-breeding blue.
https://books.google.de/books?id=zTl9CgA...unn&f=false

* I doubt that he mentioned this in the mice papers