white australorp

Posted by: jonnydot

white australorp - 12/05/11 09:19 PM

what is the breeding sequence to obtain white australorps using a splash
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: white australorp - 12/08/11 06:03 AM

Welcome to the coop.

Some splash birds can give birds nearing white, but I think you should not expect it in each single case. So if you want pristine white true breeding whites, you have to have at least one bird who has gene/s for white plumage.
Posted by: Marina

Re: white australorp - 12/08/11 07:25 PM

Shame that you are not in NZ as a pure White Australorp cockerel (not an albino) just popped up in an exhibition breeder's flock of Black Australorps in Ashburton. He has bred a small flock of them now and if mated to a Black Australorp, 50% of the offspring are white, the other 50% are black. He recently was looking for someone to continue breeding them. The legs of the white birds are slate and their eyes are dark.

I would be interested to know how this works from a genetic perspective and what kind of white would be involved.

I have tried over a period of 4 or 5 seasons to breed White Orpingtons from Splash and although at some stage white legs just popped up I was never able to get rid of the last few dark feathers so ditched the project.
Posted by: Poultch

Re: white australorp - 12/08/11 10:39 PM

Originally Posted By: Marina
I would be interested to know how this works from a genetic perspective and what kind of white would be involved.



Sounds like recessive white, especially if the rooster has gone back over female relatives (mother, sister)
Posted by: Marina

Re: white australorp - 12/10/11 02:06 AM

Thank you, Poultch. Of course the rooster has gone back over his female relatives as this breeder has a closed flock. It has now become clear to me how it works.
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/26/12 01:31 AM

Thanks guy's sorry to have been so long away I have been doing more research but little has come from it, this is what I have worked out ...Black cock over splash gives me blue,take a blue cock from this hatch and put him over the splash (mother) this will give me white ? is this correct? will this be a recessive white? and can I expect any other colours from this breeding sequence? and if I do this with 2 pens and cross the white offspring from each pen IE;-white over white will this give me 40% Black.,20% Blue 20% Splash 20% White...many thanks again Jon
Posted by: Henk69

Re: white australorp - 05/26/12 10:17 AM

No. Splash is the whitest color in play here.
You wont ever get a black bird from a splash parent.
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: white australorp - 05/26/12 04:25 PM

Jonnydot, theoretically there is always a possibility to get a recessive white(unless tested and ruled out), but it has NOTHING TO DO with the fact of mating blue with splash. You can get recessive white only if both parents have genes for recessive white and it is totally independent from blue or splash. Where do you have those numbers from?
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/27/12 01:37 AM

Wieslaw please read this thread and let me know what you think?I have almost no working knowledge og genetics so any help would be great !!
backyardpoultry topic
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/27/12 01:43 AM

ARE all splash's recessive white ?
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/27/12 02:08 AM

To try to uncomplicate things my understanding is "if the Australorp chicks (which should be all blue from a black /splash mateing) are bred back to their sires I should get white" or have I misunderstood?
Posted by: SilverSilkie

Re: white australorp - 05/27/12 02:16 AM

Originally Posted By: jonnydot
ARE all splash's recessive white ?


Splash have a double doses "Bl/Bl" of the Dominant Blue gene wich dilute only black-pigment into "dirty white" (=Splash)

Recessive white is an other gene "c/c" (=colorless), this gene block the production of both pigments black and red.

So Splash and recessive white are 2 different expressions of the working of 2 different genes.
Posted by: SilverSilkie

Re: white australorp - 05/27/12 02:22 AM

Originally Posted By: jonnydot
To try to uncomplicate things my understanding is "if the Australorp chicks (which should be all blue from a black /splash mateing) are bred back to their sires I should get white" or have I misunderstood?


an theoretical example on unicolor Black (which need extra melanizers to be completely black in the phenotype) :
E/E bl+/bl+ = Black phenotype or no dilution of black-pigment
E/E Bl/bl+ = Blue phenotype or 1 doses dilution of black-pigment
E/E Bl/Bl = Splash phenotype or 2 doses dilution of black-pigment

I think you are confused by the other used term for "Splash" which is "dirty white" but have genetically nothing to do with "white" as recessive white "c/c" (=colorless) or Dominant White "I/I" (=Inhibitor).
Posted by: Marina

Re: white australorp - 05/27/12 01:51 PM

jonnydot - I've just had a read through this thread you are referring to - they're mainly guessing. You'll get reliable info here on this forum.

I'm not an expert but I know that Blue over Splash will give you 50% Splash and 50% Blue offspring. The Blue will be a lighter shade than that in offspring from a Black x Blue mating (which gives you 50% black and 50% blue offspring). Splash and Black breed true, Blue doesn't.
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: white australorp - 05/27/12 06:30 PM

Quote:
ARE all splash's recessive white ?


Quote:
or have I misunderstood


Yes, you have misunderstood something. If all splash Autstralorps were recessive white, they would be white and not splash to begin with. It's a contradiction of some sort.Have you ever met a pair of people,both with brown eyes, who have got a child with blue eyes? That's because the blue eyes are recessive to brown eyes, but they both carried the (hidden)genes for blue eyes. That's because one of the grandparents on both sides had blue eyes(for example). Now the genes for blue eyes met each other in the child. Is it clearer now?

Here, recessive white and blue/splash are two separate things. A bird can carry black genes and blue genes and other genes at the same time, but if it receives 2 genes for recessive white, it will be white, no matter how many genes for other colours it has, because 2 doses of recessive white will block all other colours.
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/27/12 09:34 PM

OK I think I'm getting the handle on things...how does this sound?...what I need to do is get an australorp of any colour ,but it must have the recessive white gene ..cross this bird with another australorp and use this offspring to to breed back to it's sire and that should give me a percentage of white?...as now the first cross offspring will also be recessive white ?,,,alternatively I need 2 birds that carry the recessive white gene and this mating will give me a percentage of white? if this is correct would both birds that carry the recessive white gene have to be related to firm the gene up or can they be unrelated birds that both carry the recessive white gene?
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/27/12 10:17 PM

recessive white mated with recessive =white? (and will this be dominant white?)...then white (dominant?) to white (dominant?) =white (dominant?)...lol I know what I mean !!! I think this is the expression c/c (recessive) over c/c (recessive) = l/l(dominant)or have I confused things again? cheers for every ones help!!
Posted by: Poultch

Re: white australorp - 05/28/12 12:10 AM

Originally Posted By: jonnydot
recessive white mated with recessive =white?

yes

Originally Posted By: jonnydot
(and will this be dominant white?)...

no

Originally Posted By: jonnydot
I think this is the expression c/c (recessive) over c/c (recessive) = l/l(dominant)or have I confused things again? cheers for every ones help!!


yes and no!!

you are alluding to epistasis which is when one gene's allele/s overides the affect of another gene's allele/s, this is not dominance per se. Dominance is when one allele of that same gene is dominant over another allele in its expression, like C+ is dominant over c

like all the others have said Jonny, recessive white and blue are 2 separate genes, and their mode of inheritance and expression are different, same with dominant white.
think of it (the chook genome) like a stretch of road: dominant white, recessive white and blue are all points along the road, different positions therefore different genes.

since they are different genes, it doesn;t mean that a bird can't have recessive white, dominant white and blue at the same time (or any of the 3 combined).

but you only need recessive white as the Australorp standard requires slate legs and bay eye, if you threw dominant white into the mix you may well turn the eye colour orangey, recessive white alone will suffice and is ideal

so to find a bird with recessive white you need to do some test mating, if you find a bird thats completely white mate it to a black chook and if any of the offspring are white (they may have some black flecks with possibly gold bleeding through in the top part of hackle) you know that the parent bird is dominant white, which is what you dont want,
you need to find a white bird that will give only black or black with barring offspring when crossed to a true breeding black bird.
the other way to know if a bird is recessive white if it pops up from a black pen with only black parents, therefore since you know that recessive white is recessive then it lay unnoticed in the parent birds.
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/28/12 03:35 AM

thanks for that info !! I will endeavor to find a couple of recessive white birds !!
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/28/12 07:08 AM

FOUND THIS.....Black Australorp- Click to Enlarge

Black

E/E Ml/Ml bl+/bl+ W+/W+ p+/p+ r+/r+
Solid Black, white skin, slate legs, single comb may have id+ dermal melanin

Blue

E/E Ml/Ml Bl/bl+ Pg/Pg W+/W+ p+/p+ r+/r+
Blue Laced Blue, white skin, slate legs, single comb may have id+ dermal melanin

Splash

E/E Ml/Ml Bl/Bl Pg/Pg W+/W+ p+/p+ r+/r+
Blue Splash, white skin, slate legs, single comb may have id+ dermal melanin

White

E/E Ml/Ml c/c W+/W+ p+/p+ r+/r+
Solid White (Recessive White), white skin, slate legs, single comb may have id+ dermal melanin
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/28/12 07:15 AM

Doe's the "id+ dermal melanin" mean they could possibly have yellow legs ?
Posted by: jonnydot

Re: white australorp - 05/28/12 09:04 AM

E/e+ (Extended Black), , c/c (Recessive White), , Ml/Ml (Melanotic), does this mean the bird will be black but with wild type leakage ,which I think in Australorps is gold?'''parentage is E/E Ml/Ml c/c..and c/c Ml/Ml used an online genetic calculator
Posted by: Henk69

Re: white australorp - 05/29/12 12:41 AM

Australorp have white soles. That would indicate Id.