What color is this?

Posted by: BjarneS

What color is this? - 10/30/13 05:21 PM

Martin Silverud the creator of the Fiftyfive flowery leghorn,also created a couple of other breeds .One is named Queen Silvia and have the same pattern as Brakel (autosomal bared?).Anyway there is this recesive color gene that ocure in the breed I was woundering what it might be?



Posted by: Norwegian

Re: What color is this? - 10/31/13 10:23 AM

Nice color! Kjempefin farge! :-)
Posted by: BjarneS

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 07:47 AM

No ideas what it might be? Smokey have been sugested.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 08:26 AM

lavender?
Posted by: Norwegian

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 09:37 AM

Isn't it too brownish to be lavender?
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 09:48 AM

Bjarne, Smoky was a mutation on I (dominant white) which never left the institution where it appeared (as far as it is known). If there was no dominant white birds involved, reappearance of Smoky is unlikely.
Posted by: Hen-Gen

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 11:36 AM

Dun?
Posted by: BjarneS

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 12:23 PM

No white birds involved since 1976 at least..

To give some background to these bird and the reason why I am asking about them.Recently a group of people interested in the breeds created by Martin Silverudd and other older utility strains of breeds like white leghorn and RIR.Created a club to preserve them.The Queen Silvia was down to a very low number and the different color varieties where all mixed together .
The original created colors where gold autosomal bared (QS gold) silver autosomal bared and gold autosomal bared +sexlinked bared (QS gold bared)like a Cambar.
These people working with this project do not have so much knowledge about color genetics and believed that these pale birds where the autosexing QS gold bared .Realizing that it was probably wrong I have tried (without success) to find a photo of a Cambar to see how the color looks like as adults .I have not found any photos but I have found Punnett article with a description of the bird:it looked very much like a Campine.
Also almost all of the breeding stock are silver.Is it likely to find both of these sexlinked traits traits (silver and sexlinked baring) on the same Z chromosome?
Here is a link to the clubs homepage http://kulturhons.cybersite.nu/1-Queen-Silvia
Posted by: Henk69

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 12:46 PM

Hens only have one Z chromosome, so yes.
Posted by: BjarneS

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 12:52 PM

But it reqires a cross over doesn´t it
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 03:18 PM

Cross-over can only happen in roosters, but it is an easy thing to do, as silver and barring are very far appart.
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 11:41 PM

Yes, it doesn't look like Smoky (different shade of grey), but could be another mutation of the I Dominant White locus.

Yes, there is no close linkage between B - sex-linked barring & S - Silver (segregate independently).

They don't seem to have sex-linked barring B, like the original Queen Silvias (were there ever any original Queen Silvia varieties without B? - otherwise b+ - probably poor or no autosexing traits).

You can tell birds without B, eg, at the website (link provided) some solid eumelanin in the tails, etc (should have eumelanin/white bars), & the gold version on the website should have black/gold bars (autosomal barring), gold/white bars (sex-linked barring on phaeomelanin), and black/white bars (sex-linked barring on eumelanin), if B present. Plus B/B males are usually paler, & B/- & B/B easy to see on chick down.

As to the eumelanin diluted hens, I would test cross with one of the Gold autosomal barred roosters - b+/b+ (that would not be carrying the recessive diluter), see if a sex-linked mutation (eg an allele of the B locus), plus breed the F1 together & see if any traits like lav where both eumelanin & gold phaeomelanin (s+/s+ or s+/-) are diluted.
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: What color is this? - 11/01/13 11:53 PM

The following paper has some Cambar photos:

Genetic studies in Poultry. VIII. On a case of sex-linkage within a breed.
R. C. Punnett and M. S. Pease
1930. Jour. Gen. 22: 395-397
full paper

*The feather closeups of the barred hen seem to have faint whitish bars within some of the black autosomal bars, plus the feather undercolour seems to be affected too.
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: What color is this? - 11/02/13 10:56 AM

In case somebody did not pay enough attention while reading the document provided by Kazjaps, I quote:

Quote:
It will be noticed that the gold in the feather, where present, is paler than in the pure Campine. This is especially noticeable in the gold neck hackles, and is doubtless due to some inhibitory influence exerted by the sex-linked barring factor on the formation of this pigment.


It is exactly what I said in one of the old threads on legbars. I love to say "I told you" (especially to my wife smile )
Posted by: BjarneS

Re: What color is this? - 11/09/13 09:56 AM



After talking some more with the breeder and doing some reading I am woundering if these birds might be bared sexlinked dilute (Bsd) combined with silver.It is acting as dominant trait.The above roster produced the previous pictured pale hens and regular silvers when bred to regular silver hens .Here as hatchlings.


Next photos is what the same rooster produced when bred back to his pale daughters.There where also the paler type in the above photo among the ofspring

Posted by: Kaalnek

Re: What color is this? - 11/09/13 10:42 AM

I've had Bsd and to me they don't even come close.. there was very strong tendency to have a lot of white at the base of feathers on all Bsd, even on the 'darkest' birds. The birds are too dark, and the tails are way solid to be Bsd. Even that rooster does not look Bsd to me- too much color in tail.

Those birds below were bred by me, they were on black(don't know if E or ER)and nothing else. Notice how much white each feather on the hen has. Tail almost half white etc.








Personally, the birds in the first post look to have autosomal barring pattern. I suppose if you really want to settle this, breed that rooster to a black hen. If it's Bsd, it should be extremely obvious.
Posted by: BjarneS

Re: What color is this? - 11/13/13 11:58 AM

Thank you Kaalneck .Hard to find good info and photos of Carlifonia grey with and many doesn´t even seams to have Bsd.
Posted by: Berend

Re: What color is this? - 12/18/13 03:32 AM

Could it be pearlgrey S or lavender s+ (pearlgrey isabel.)
Just like mine (pencilled), see the pics.





Posted by: Henk69

Re: What color is this? - 12/18/13 09:16 AM

parelgrijs = lavender
wink
Posted by: BjarneS

Re: What color is this? - 12/20/13 09:57 AM

Finaly managed to find a photo of a Cambar ,it was in a egg for sale listing .The text say that the seller have been working for three years to recreate the Cambar looking at the roster the project seams only half finshed ,but I think the hens have Cambar fenotype ..not very pretty
Posted by: Sigiagain

Re: What color is this? - 12/29/13 05:39 PM

Guess the first photos is not dun or lavender but white barred silver. Check out this pdf page 8 bottom pics the rooster.
Posted by: Sigiagain

Re: What color is this? - 12/29/13 05:40 PM

Adding the pdf would be helpful:
http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/11E04A05.pdf
Posted by: Henk69

Re: What color is this? - 12/30/13 02:03 AM

Sigs, you are back! wink
Posted by: BjarneS

Re: What color is this? - 01/01/14 07:36 AM

Thanks Sigi!
Posted by: Smooth Mule

Re: What color is this? - 01/01/14 01:06 PM

Missed you Sigrid!
(sorry it's off topic)