Brahma project

Posted by: Big Medicine

Brahma project - 03/19/09 01:41 PM

Several years ago I posted on this site about an accidental crossing of silver laced cochin and white cornish. This produced a single pullet. She was much more cornish in type,double laced like a dark cornish, but black and white, pea combed, and feather legged. I had inquired as to the possibility of producing a single laced, silver laced Brahma type bird from this cross. Dr.Ron Okimoto replied with much helpful infomation. The jist of which was numbers,patience,and persistance. So many years later,this is the current state of this project.
(Actually I believe my original post was on Brian Reeders old Onagadori site. edit 1-03-2010)
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 01:42 PM

Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 01:51 PM

Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 01:55 PM

Posted by: Manok

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 02:19 PM

Very beautiful! That's something to be proud of!

Can you tell some more about how many generations it took, how many chicks you hatched, with which genes you had the most problems, etc.?
Posted by: Rhea Dean Carter

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 02:50 PM

Very nice silver laced Brahmas. Perhaps others in the U.S. will show an interest in them and get them admitted to the Standard of Perfection.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 03:09 PM

Probably 15-20 generations. The early years working with just this pullet, her parent stock, and resulting crosses,I worked on type,comb,leg feathers,and color.Vulture hocks and clean lacing were early obstacles.The Cornish blood was show stock(short legged bowling balls),I had a hard time getting any height. About 8 years ago I introduced a light Brahma male, which improved size,and type, but totally blew up the color for a while, and then again 4 years ago.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 03:19 PM

I hatch about 125-150 chicks annually the past few years, less earlier. Here is one of last of the old gals (before the introduction of the Brahma blood.
Posted by: Manok

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 05:08 PM

That's a lot of work!

Did you tackle all issues at once? I mean, if you had for instance some offspring with a good comb but bad leg color, and others that had good legs but not a good comb... did you keep all, or make a choice which trait to do first?
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 10:40 PM

I guess I just took it as it came. Whatever seemed to come together,I'd try to hang on to that trait,and work on the rest. But yes, compromises were made. The old hen for example, excellent head,good full breast,pretty decent color,and on the minus side, vulture hocks,short cornish stance. At the same time most of my birds were taller,and clean hocked. but needed some of the good points from her.
Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 03/19/09 10:49 PM

very impressive and very inspiring.

did you aim for CB and PB or for something where both males and females came from the one breeding.

what colour was the original brahma you introduced?

how difficult was it to get a pure white rather than the mahogany making it dirty or even red?

if i lived in a cold climate they would be the birds that i would make. a cross between the 2 breeds i work with already (in bantam though) making the need for only one breed.

how do they dress out and how fast do they grow? what are they like to eat?

k
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/20/09 02:04 AM

Thank you,

All single breeding pen so far.

Light

Early on I got a fair amount of off colored birds. I just did not use them on this project. I keep a second pen of gold laced birds birds of the same blood minus the last Brahma infusion. Rarely I will still get a hint of color on the wing of a cockerel. Seemingly always a big,tall rangey,heavy browed,very upright standing bird with a seriously mean expression. My daughter refers to them as dinosaur birds, very primitive looking, strongly reminiscent of Asil,or Malay.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: Brahma project - 03/20/09 10:28 AM

Beautiful! Very sharp birds. smile
Posted by: D. Honour

Re: Brahma project - 03/20/09 12:52 PM

Do you still have the gold laced too?Any pictures of the gold laced? Those silver laced are nice.Silver laced Cochin breeders would be wise to use these back into Cochins ,and breed back the single combs.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/20/09 05:25 PM

Yes, I still keep some "gold laced", although several of last years hatch are colored more like some Barnvelders I've seen. Single laced on the breast and double laced on the back. The lacing needs considerable work to clean up. Partridge will pop up every so often in this bunch. These birds are not nearly so typey as my silvers, as they did not recieve the last Brahma "infussion".
As you can see by the male in this pen I've got a whole other project started.( I don't mean the old english bantum in first shot.)
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/20/09 05:28 PM

Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/20/09 05:30 PM

Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/20/09 05:33 PM

Posted by: Foehn

Re: Brahma project - 03/21/09 11:23 AM

Just love that blue/red rooster in background of last photo. Makes me envious. We have been trying to get Blue laced/red wyandottes for about 4 years now. Have a very promising rooster, but the colour on the girls continues to be a problem.
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 03/21/09 06:14 PM

Those look amazing! It seems like the blue laced red/gold and blue laced silver would look cool too. I am just surpised at how good of type they have, that rooster is something else.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/21/09 06:21 PM

Giving credit where it is due, I would like to acknowledge the breeders whose bloodlines where instrumental in the development of these birds.
Roland Doer -Silver Laced Cochin
the late Lewis Strait - White Cornish
the late Bill Bowman - Light Brahma
Bill Mayer -Light Brahma
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/23/09 01:52 AM

moo,
I believe what helped the type, is that I did not stray too far from the Brahma family tree. The original pullet looked somewhat like a short, stout,primitive Brahma. Hence the idea. The most common school of thought has the Brahma origin as a cross of Cochin and Malay. You will also find Malay in the parent stock of Cornish as well. So what I did ,in essence, was accidently simulate the origin of Brahmas, using a shorter, stockier cousin. Plus, the luxery of having modern Brahmas to cross to helped immensely.
Posted by: KS Waterfowl

Re: Brahma project - 03/23/09 03:34 PM

WOW WOW WOW!!! These are awesome looking birds. I have been trying to breed largefowl dark brahmas for the last few years but only hatched a minimal amount of offspring and then about midwinter, I lost my male. I now have two dark hens and a light/dark cross hen with no male to breed them with. I have tossed around the idea of using a silverlaced wyandotte male because I know where one is located that would be easy to get to. I asked a couple of brahma breeders about a male, but they don't have anything not in a breeding pen for the year. (Which I understand considering what they eat.) Here in Indiana there are a few breeders of brahmas, but since Mr. Bowman passed away his birds as well as other largefowl brahmas have been hard to locate. Some of my original stock came from a Kolzac (sp? I believe) but I've not seen him since then, I just happened to be in the right place at the right time for those. I've also thought about using a lt. male but I already have the light/dark cross and didn't want to have a whole bunch of those running around here.
You have beautiful birds you should be very proud of them. Wish there were some of those around some of the indiana shows.
Jason
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 03/24/09 05:39 PM

Since you have gotten gold birds from them and I think you said something about partridge, that would be a good side project. When I had dark brahmas a few years back I tried to make partridge brahmas by using a partridge rock cock on dark brahma hens and I got a trio of chicks, I sold the pair to a friend that wanted to work with them and gave the other hen to a friend that wanted her for a pet. The pair got killed and the other hen was bred with a gold laced cochin x dark cornish cross and had some amazing chicks that look like a partridge brahma.
Blue laced red would look awesome too.
Posted by: Sonoran Silkies

Re: Brahma project - 03/24/09 09:46 PM

They are STUNNING!!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 12:06 AM

Hi,

I am new to this forum. A friend recommended that I reply to this thread as I have been working on a very similar project. Big Medicine, your silver-laced birds look amazing. You have done an awesome job establishing a nice Brahma type. I would very much like to buy some eggs from you when you have some available.

Below are pictures of my birds, all are about eight months old at the time of the photo except for the angry looking little cockerel who I think is about 5 months old.

I am very excited to find another breeder working on such a similar color variety of LF Brahma. When I started my project – almost ten years ago – my goal was to create one of my favorite color patterns in one of my favorite breeds. Now I am very close to having large fowl buff-laced Brahmas. When I began this project there were no heavy breed buff-laced birds to be found, so I started from scratch with buff and dark brahmas, golden laced cochins, golden-laced wyandottes, a blue Wyandotte/dark Brahma cross, white laced red Cornish, and a dominant white buff columbian Ameraucana hen. From the beginning I created and maintained two relatively unrelated lines so that I’d always have an outcross if I needed it. Unfortunately these lines no longer carry the blue gene – which they should – so the lacing looks a bit dirty. Big Medicine, when you have some blue or splash laced golds or reds I’d be interested in obtaining some from you to reintroduce the blue gene.

Thanks for lifting my spirits Big Medicine, and I hope everyone else enjoys the pictures.

All the best,

Dan

[img]http://home.centurytel.net/pfxs/[/img]
Posted by: Jrsygntbrdr1

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 12:11 AM

Dan, I can't see any pictures?!

I can't WAIT to see these!
Posted by: Rhea Dean Carter

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 12:51 AM

Dan, the link you've inserted into your message doesn't work. When I click on it, it give an Untitled Document error.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 01:15 AM

Sorry Folks,
I've had some trouble posting my pictures. I think (I'm hoping) I've posted them now. These pictures are all of very young birds - approximately 5 to 8 months old. Like Big Medicine I do produce a few golden-laced birds as well, but have no pictures of them to share at the moment.
Dan

Posted by: Tim J.

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 04:12 AM

Dan P,
I appreciate your work and dedication to your project. You and Bigmedicine have done some truly amazing work. Some people believe we should only focus upon what is in the standard now. I disagree and congratulate you both. The work you have shown is very commendable especially with the current shortfall of dedicated breeders in the poultry hobby.
Thank you
Tim
Posted by: Manok

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 10:50 AM

Dan, these are also very nice! Well done! This gives inspiration to all other people who are working for years on a new breed or color. (Which probably means at least half the people in this forum.)

Are your birds heterozygous or homozygous for dominant white?

What are the differences in the way the overall colors look between heterozygous and homozygous ones?
Posted by: Hen-Gen

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 01:08 PM

Stunning work and, as has been said, also inspirational. Congratulations!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 01:24 PM

TimJ, thanks for the words of encouragement. Breed development and history is a big interest of mine, so naturally I commend all those who so doggedly uphold breed standards. We should all grateful to them. But so to our hobby and poultry industry would be nothing without the likes of mavericks such as Sir John Sebright. I see breeds as fluid things and I see breed standards simply as the baffles that help 'steady' the gene pool. I guess I just happen to find tributaries to be more fun than ponds. smile

Thanks Manok. I have yet to use a rooster that produced no gold-laced offspring. But I hatch hundreds of chicks and my hatches are well over 80% buff-laced, so some of the hens are likely homozygous. I am pursuing this particular project from more of a population perspective in that I don’t put too much emphasis on creating that one perfect buff-laced specimen. In short, I don’t know which birds might be homozygous. I have thought about doing some test-matings and forcing them down the path of homozygosity for color pattern and brahma type, but since my selection concerns have also been for longevity and production traits, I have avoided the temptation to create any sort of purely aesthetic ‘selection bottleneck’ for them that might overly reduce the genetic integrity of the flock. I have always assumed that the lighter colored birds are homozygous, but I can’t say for sure. As clear as mudd, I know.

Thank you Hen Gen for your kind words.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 04:43 PM

Dan, welcome to the discussion,(and forum)
I was aware of your project from the FeatherSite Brahma page. Glad you came aboard, I have been very curious what route you had taken to achieve your results. Very nice birds by the way. Interesting, other than the Ameraucana, we used the same foundation breeds. Technically,I did not use Wyandotte in the silver laced line,but you can bet it is in the Silver Laced Cochin's background. As far as the blue/gold line,which does have direct Wyandotte blood. I should have blue this year,and splash in next years hatch. I think we should be able to work something out.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/09 10:30 PM

Dan,
I am curious as to cornish stock involved, was it the short show type. That was a p.i.a. to get around the short legs for me, but man, the heads that came with it.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 03/26/09 01:19 PM

Big Medicine,

I have to say that I was thrilled to see your silver-laced bird photos. I really would like to obtain some blue/splash gold-laced brahmas from you for my project - as well as some silver laced birds when you have some available. I have not added new blood since I began this project, and while my birds are plenty strong and are egg laying machines, this flock could benefit from some very upright, and “browy” brahma-esque blood.

I intentionally created two lines simultaneously – with the intent of crossing them down the road. One is a blend of Cochin and Ameraucana and Brahma, and the other is a blend of Brahma, Cornish, and Wyandotte. The Cornish I used were a McMurray hatchery line and were long legged and looked very small. I had a lot of split wings and twisted flight feathers in this line and likely culled much of the Cornish blood out. My one line is slightly narrower in type and the other is a nice size, but is still too cochin-like for my taste. Last year I crossed the two and this produced my best birds this year. Now that I know that there are other laced Brahmas in existence, I may completely blend the two lines to create one large flock.

For some time I corresponded with a couple breeders in England and in The Netherlands that wanted to create their own buff-laced brahmas. I recommended that they cross Jubilee Indian Games with gold-laced Cochins and also cross their blue partridge brahmas with some buff-laced Wyandottes (I wish I had these to work with) and then cross the two lines. Like you, I thought that starting with the Brahma’s closest relatives made the most sense.

If you have an interest, I could pair up some gold-laced birds this year to produce some eggs for you - so you’d have more blood for your blue-laced red project. I’ll try to get some pictures.

Dan
Posted by: Black Sheep

Re: Brahma project - 03/26/09 06:30 PM

cool
Hiya, Medicine Man!

I finally found those magnificent birds you had told me about on the phone. Oh, I'm the "Goofy" Secretary of the best breed club in the world, the American Brahma Club, and we chatted a bit about your wonderful project the other night.

I am absolutely fascinated by those Silver Laced birds! I just love the heads, and as you had explained, that has to be where those ladies got their wide skulls, that are so sought after by Brahma breeders.

I look forward to seeing any other photos you may have, and if you get a chance, why not post them on our web site for the club? It's located at:
www.americanbrahmaclub.com , and it's supposed to be able to take member photos now.

As you probably know, we had to move our Website from its original MSN base, but we're learning as we go.

Thanks again for the photos and for working so diligently on this project. Please make a habit of documenting each and every aberration and defect, as well as the almost-perfect specimens you raise. The more paperwork, the easier it will be to get this gorgeous variety accepted in the Standard!

Plus, if you decide you'd like to show these birds at a sanctioned show, they are eligible to receive awards as high as Best of Variety. Ask for a copy of the show report, as this is evidence that they were shown and were not disqualified for any General Defects, as outlined in the Standard.

Give me a yell when you can, and please feel free to e-mail me with any more photos. My e-mail address is: henshaven@localnet.com.

Thanks!

Yours in the fancy,
Sandy
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/28/09 03:26 PM

Dan,
I would like to see your gold laced birds. I do not have any experience with dominant white,does it have effect on the tone of gold, or only the black lacing. I would be glad to help, providing blood for your project. I too find relief in finding a kindred spirit who has undertaken a project so similar to mine. What would crossing really good SQ buff Brahma into your lines at this point do ? Besides messing with your lacing for a few generations,decreasing egg production, and slower maturity. I see this in my blue/gold lines future to improve type and clean up the lacing.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 03/29/09 12:42 AM

Big Medicine,

I would love to find some massive SQ Brahmas – ideally both blue partridge and buff columbian. I’d breed the two together and then use the F1 with some of my buff-laced birds. I don’t show, but my eye does like big, tall, massive birds with an owly brow. I admit to being cautious about breeding to a show standard that might compromise these birds’ utility. The SQ feathering is actually way too soft for the windy hill I live on. It doesn’t so much hold heat as act like a wind sail in this neck of the woods. smile

I don’t worry about messing up the laced pattern – or getting set back a few years – as I am way further ahead on this project than I imagined I would be by now. My main focus really has been on dual-purpose utility. That may seem a bit weird considering I’m playing with one of the most ornamental fowl patterns in the fancy. I just think that our livestock were meant to be more Rolls Royce (expressions of self and ‘beautility’) and less McDonalds (over billions served). I digress.

Dominant white does reduce the gold. I have some gold-laced cockerels that are brilliant deep mahogany (which would work well for you), but some that are much paler than the typical gold-laced standard. I’ve had buff-laced pullets that started feathering up almost pure white that ended up near perfect buff-laced birds. Some of my buff-laced cockerels have deep red shoulders, and some have an even ‘buff columbian’ toned buff throughout. As I’ve mentioned - for this particular project - I am trying to shoehorn a ‘Rolls Royce’ into a ‘Farmall’ sort of lifestyle. So, my selection process is a bit like trying to fill my shopping cart with a nice healthy balance of Mozart and meat and potatoes! smile

BTW, have you explored the ALBC’s buckeye project at all? It presents a great hands-on way to select for utility. I will find an URL for you if you want it.

I will try to get you some photos of my gold-laced birds. I wasn’t able to hatch until late in the summer – and this winter has been the worst in 15 years - so this spring’s youngsters are still looking pretty unkempt this spring. However, I purposely breed some of my oldest birds (three years old) in order to select for longevity, so some of the old gold-laced girls that have made ‘the cut’ (by shear will to live) are still around and looking better than many of last fall’s hatch at this point in the season.

Dan
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 04/05/09 02:50 PM

This is a 9 month old golden laced Brahma pullet that I am retaining for my buff laced project. She is very tall, but still lacks a bit in substance.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 04/05/09 02:57 PM

These are gold laced hens that are two years old. The pictures were taken last summer. These are from my buff-laced line that drew its lacing from Wyandottes. I still have these two hens, though the weather hasn’t been cooperating for me to get a more recent photo.

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 04/05/09 03:07 PM

This hen was 2 years old at the time the photo was taken – last summer. She is from my buff laced line that drew its lacing from gold laced cochins – and it shows. One of my favorites, but unfortunately I lost this hen last fall. Luckily, I did manage to get several very nice offspring.

Posted by: Raf

Re: Brahma project - 04/07/09 01:22 AM

Fantastic thread guys.

So good to see the results of dedicated breeding.

Raf
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 04/07/09 11:54 PM

Big Medicine,

I was just reviewing the thread and realized that I hadn’t answered a couple of your questions.

I do believe that dominant white does reduce gold tones. I have not noticed this in this project so much as in my bantam hamburg/sebright/campine projects. Generally it seems to turn a rich gold bay to mealy buff. However, some of my buff-laced Brahmas have a brilliant golden buff color that I have not obtained in my other work with dominant white. The black lacing is more or less eradicated – though it would be cleaned up further with blue.

I have used both buff columbian and darks or partridge early-on for this project, and found it to be more rewarding to use the partridge. Why? I am not sure - maybe because I’d rather look at an F1 bird with mossy/stippled lacing than at an F1 bird with crescent lacing. I don’t know. The greatest issue with the buff-laced pattern has been with getting birds homozygous for melanotic. My birds seem to be homozygous for Columbian, but not necessarily for melanotic. There are clearly some gene linkage issues that my selection for comb type and feather pattern have exacerbated.

If you can find some nice SQ blue partridge Brahmas for your blue laced red line I think you might reach your goal much faster than with using SQ buffs. My gold-laced birds from buff columbians tend to have very pale buff ground color – very much like the gold-laced pullet in the recent photos I posted. As of yet I have not found any blue partridge to add to my flock.

Take Care All,
Dan
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 04/08/09 01:55 AM

Have been having computer problems, sorry I have been slow responding.

Very nice lacing on the dark birds, nice "Brahma tilt" on top line.

I have 2 pullets in the blue/gold pen that I kept because of type that are more pencilled with a dark laced edge. They may well produce something not too far from a blue partridge. I will try to get a picture.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 04/18/09 01:51 AM

Just brought off my first hatch this week. Got 30- 35 silver, and 50-60 blue/gold pen chicks. I was suprised by a few clean legged chicks from the blue/gold pen.
Dan,did you want some b/g eggs this year, or wait for splash.
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 04/19/09 07:03 PM

Just wondering on your blue gold chicks, did you notice any pattern or anything as far as leg feathering and color or comb?
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 04/20/09 11:41 PM

Moo,
To tell you the truth, have not handled the chicks that much yet. From hatcher to brooder, a then Marek's innoculations. Did notice while giving shots a few combs that look non pea, cushion maybe (which is what the male has). Will try to pay attention when I move them to the big brooder (in the coop) in a couple weeks. If I have the main computer working I will try to get some photos posted.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 04/23/09 10:54 AM

Sorry I have been so long in posting a reply. This time of year it is next to impossible to get indoors and sit down at the computer.

Big Medicine, I will hold out for some eggs from some splash laced gold birds, if that is an option. I lost my blue gene once already because I lost track of it behind the dominant white. If I could start with splash birds it would really simplify things. Thanks for thinking of me.

Dan
Posted by: Choc

Re: Brahma project - 05/04/09 10:27 PM

Big Medicine, Dan P, WoW!!!! How have I only just seen this thread???

Well done, your projects and dedication make me very excited and inspired about my own projects. Sometimes you need a boost and this is just the ticket. No doubt there have been some trying times along the way. One of my projects was wiped out back to square 1 last year after a friend unfortunately lost 2 males. A stoat put me back a year with a different project, and a dog attack at my firend's house nearly put paid to another (fortunately there was another male separate).

These photos are a great credit to you both. Wonderful to see!!
Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 05/07/09 12:08 AM

WOW..just WOW..you guys are so cool..a small time guy like me can only dream about doing what you do..keep the good work on..
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 05/14/09 02:29 AM

Choc,
Thank you, your post brings up a concern of mine. The concentration of all my birds in one place, in one coop in fact. Hopefully I will produce enough quality birds this year to get some folks started in them, insurance against some potential catastrophic event.

Nicamarvin, as stated above I am a one coop operation here. I don't think it is a matter of size, although additional coop space would be fantastic. In my case I think persistance or maybe bullheadedness is the key factor.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 05/18/09 02:52 PM

Choc, thank you! I am glad this thread gave you a boost – it has certainly reignited my interest. Like Big Medicine I too have been a bit concerned of late that I am making a mistake in having ‘all my eggs in one basket.’ At my partner’s insistence I did finally build another coop to split the flock in two as a partial insurance measure against a catastrophe. I think Big Medicine has the right idea about getting these birds in the hands of other breeders. I am hatching many eggs this spring with that very intent.

Nicamarvin, I’m a dreamer. My head is always about ten years ahead of my hands - and my pocketbook. It is the dream that keeps this project going for me. So, keep dreaming – a little bullheadedness helps a lot too! <wink>

Big Medicine, prior to stumbling upon this thread I always kept a large flock with two separate lines as a safeguard against inbreeding depression – I hatch a few hundred chicks each year and cull to about fifty breeders (many unavoidably lacking in type because I am trying to maintain such a large gene pool). As I mentioned earlier, I am quite relieved to discover this thread as your birds are an additional ‘genetic’ insurance policy for my flock. You have freed me up to cull a bit more ruthlessly and enjoy my flock a bit more. Like choc and nicamarvin, I too find your birds to be an inspiration – particularly those typey silver-laced birds (they approach in type those laced Brahmas that are in my head but not yet in my coop.) Good job!

Dan
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 05/18/09 03:04 PM

I was just wondering about Brahmas. Since it seems that they have tons of colors in Holland do they have laced or is this just an 'American' project?
Posted by: Sigi

Re: Brahma project - 05/19/09 02:39 PM

I just pointed the Dutch Brahmaclub on this subject last month.
We don't have lots of colours and absolutely not the laced ones, they are wonderfull! So an American Project and I'm sure there are breeders who will ask for eggs lol
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 05/19/09 04:08 PM

By lots of colors I mean variations like partridge, blue buff columbian, and all that. We mainly have the 3 popular colors here-light, dark, and buff.
Posted by: Sigi

Re: Brahma project - 05/20/09 01:22 AM

OK I understand, here are also non standard colours.
In the standard are: white black columbian (new name), white blue columbian, buff black columbian, buff blue columbian, partridge, silver pencilled, blue silver pencilled, birchen and black accepted in large.
There are as non standard on large: even coloured blue, black mottled, blue mottled, cuckoo, white.
Black, black mottled, blue, blue mottled and cuckoo are made here years ago. The blacks were neglected by the standard commission so they went to Germany and Belgium where they were accepted. We don't do acceptances anymore because we're a kind of notorious because most new colours are made here and The Dinosaur Establishment doesn't like us for that, lol.
I meant, we've no nice patterns like laced.

Bantams as extra blue partridge. On the last acceptence they also were ok with lavender partridge. Those come from Switserland originally. Bad birds here, no distinct multiple lacing anymore.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: Brahma project - 05/20/09 08:03 AM

Nevertheless those isabel/lavender partridges are beautiful!
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 05/21/09 01:20 AM

I recieved correspondance asking to post pictures of my birds on a German website. They were well recieved, apparently similar birds were shown at the 2006 Erfurt show.

On a website from down under that Ruff linked to this thread, a judge stated he saw as good as laced Brahmas at the Brahma show at Yass in June of 2008.

If anyone can confirm, or better yet has pictures, I would love to see how mine compare.
Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 05/21/09 06:42 AM

i wouldn't bet on the aussie ones too much as i have not yet seen any photos of them. your level would be in the uk and europe.

it is hard to judge birds by photos alone.

this is a massive crossbred brahma from a friends place, earlier this year in england. and he is only a chicken. he was taller than the magnificent cochins i saw there.



k
Posted by: Sigi

Re: Brahma project - 05/21/09 07:21 AM

On the Europe Show in Leipzig 2007 were silver and gold laced large cochins shown. I can check out Erfurt 2006 perhaps we've still a catalogue.
I don't know anything about laced Brahma's in Europe. We're active in the Dutch Brahma club.
Berend Beekhuis of the Dutch club, perhaps you know that name? was pointed on this thread.


The lavender partridges don't have good lacings.
Seems people have just as much difficulties in 'seeing' the lacings as in blue partridge and therefore don't make the good discisions when selecting. At least, in Holland. They also suffered from the 'lavender' feather growth inhibitor. Feather stubs on the shoulders were covered by the hackle, the judge didn't see it, lol
The first ones we saw also in Leipzig, original Swiss animals, but that's bantams. They had pretty good lacings.

The aussie cock above looks like a dinosaur.
Crossbred with what?
Posted by: Henk69

Re: Brahma project - 05/21/09 09:37 AM

The aussies do have material:


from:
http://forum.backyardpoultry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7974974&p=260096#p260096
Posted by: Sigi

Re: Brahma project - 05/21/09 01:18 PM

These have the same cloudy appearence as my silver laced x cuckoo cross. But I guess they don't hve cuckoo.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 05/22/09 02:10 PM

Beatifull Cochins, and condition. Look at the width of feather on the cushion. Definite smokey look to the lacing. A shot of one of my girls.(Easier than flipping to the first page to compare lacing}
Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 05/22/09 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ruffEnuff:

this is a massive crossbred brahma from a friends place, earlier this year in england. and he is only a chicken. he was taller than the magnificent cochins i saw there.

k
How tall you think he is??over 70 cm?? I think they look very massive because they have such small head..they are very beatuful birds
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 05/22/09 03:48 PM

Those are awesome looking cochins indeed. I’d say they are blue laced as my blue laced red Sebrights have similar smokey lacing. The Blbl chicks have dark charcoal down and as adults look like ‘smokey’ gold sebrights – not very pretty actually. The splashes from this line have been a shade darker than lavender – but I still haven’t produced any decently laced splashes.

Another beautiful silver-laced brahma Big Medicine. Be sure to put me on the list for some eggs from them as well! smile My buff-laced breeding pens are winding down and for the first time in years I am setting up a pen of my best gold-laced birds – the rooster of which is a very deep mahogany red. So perhaps I will produce something useful to your blue-laced red project.

When I first started my buff-laced project I created many colors - blue buff columbian, white buff columbian, blue partridge, and gold laced. Ultimately all these colors were used to create my buff-laced birds. I worked on reds for a while as well, but parted with them and have since never seen or heard of them. I have an interesting old picture of these brahma crosses around here I’ll post if I can find it.

Dan
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 05/22/09 06:11 PM

Dan

How broody are your birds? Out of 8 in the silver lace pen 6 are trying to set. I started keeping eggs a month earlier this year because of it, I'm glad I did.
The gold laced hens only 3 have gone broody out of 11. Many of these birds are out of a large, typey, well laced single combed hen that layed well into the fall her first year without going broody, before moulting, well later than her broodmates. She is one of the 3 broody gold laced now.
I have broken up the blue laced pen, and giving serious thought about doing the same with the silver laced. Not getting many eggs, plus I feel
better when they get out in the yard and pasture.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 05/24/09 12:39 PM

Big Medicine,

I only have a couple older girls just starting to go broody now (out of about forty). I think over the years I have been inadvertently selecting against broodiness because - oddly enough - I burn wood to heat the house. You see, I can not hatch eggs until after the heating season because my incubators are set up in the basement and during the heating season the temperatures in the basement fluctuate by 20 degrees. This means that I am not setting eggs until June and any hen that by this time has stopped laying and gone broody doesn’t leave decedents. Serendipitously, I think that this has also resulted in birds with very good egg production, but if there is some link between broodiness and SQ brahma type, than my flock and/or my management of it needs to be adjusted. I raise llamas, so the woven wire I use for their pastures works very well to isolate small flocks of breeder brahmas. I too prefer to have them out on the range. I think my hatches are much better when they are out eating bugs and greens too. The truly odd thing about my buff-laced brahma flock is that they range very, very far and don’t return to roost until almost an hour later than all the other breeds I keep - some wandering in just at dark. How I selected for this I do not know. I am guessing that the local raccoon population will start applying a little selection pressure of its own in the opposite direction should this trend continue. smile

Dan
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 05/24/09 12:46 PM

Here is that old picture of my brahma flock from back in the early days of my project.

Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 05/24/09 03:03 PM

wowl the black tailed red look awsome...I think joachim or somebody else here was working in a red brahma...they look way cool..


Quote:
Originally posted by Dan P.:
Big Medicine,

I only have a couple older girls just starting to go broody now (out of about forty). I think over the years I have been inadvertently selecting against broodiness. I think that this has also resulted in birds with very good egg production,
Dan
I think you are doing a breed a BIG favor, as very large breeds tend to be very broody and not lay much eggs, add that to the feeding bill and you´ll get a very expencive chicken, not to good with the poor masses and to you, but if you remove the broodiness out of them you will not only have more eggs to hatch from a same bird and the oportunity to see genetics even closer you will also have a show looking utility bird wich is always less expencive on all of us pockets...nice work keep ip up..
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 05/25/09 05:13 AM

Thanks for sharing those pics. When I had brahmas I thought about making reds using cochins and buckeyes with buff brahmas. Having blue buff columbian here in the US would be cool. The white buff columbians would be cool too, they would look great being better marked in the hackle.

So did those birds come from your buff laced project or did you make those then do the buff laced project?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 05/28/09 12:08 AM

Nicamarvin, thank you for your input. This project has taken on a mind of its own and over the years I waver between beauty and utility. I do want a bird that will stand the test of time and that is inclined to go out on the range and fend for itself, or that can produce abundant eggs and an appetizing carcass, but I want that all wrapped up in a package that inspires me each and every time I enter the coop. Interestingly, throughout this process, the flock is gradually shifting into focus and the exceptional individual therein doesn’t hold the fascination it once did. Thanks again.

Moo, the reds where not a part of the buff-laced project – but all the rest were developed with that intent. I have always loved red birds – and BTW I used buckeyes, red cochins, and partridge brahmas. My intent with the reds and the buff-laced was to develop Brahmas in colors that no closely related breed had standardized. My next project is cream spangled, but that is all hush, hush at this point. smile


Dan
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 05/28/09 05:12 AM

Cool. Did you sell them or eat them? In other words are those colors still around?
Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 06/02/09 03:36 PM

just keep doing what you´r doing..you are doing it right as you birds look show type and have that utitilty trait..
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 06/02/09 09:37 PM

Re-reading this post is making me want to work with brahmas. Maybe I could do barred, then crele then maybe try to introduce the dun gene to them and have lots of fun then. Hmm, now I am going to have to start planning on how to make them.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 06/03/09 12:34 PM

Moo, I think Roger Potter has some barred brahmas. I no longer have his contact information though. My reds are no longer in existence to my knowledge. I believe the party that I gave them to lost interest in them and ate them shortly afterwards.

Nicamarvin, thanks for the encouraging words. It is important to me that these birds don’t end up simply being ornamentals with no utilitarian value. I do wonder whether I can have it all in one flock. It seems at times that the two types are mutually exclusive.

Dan
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 06/03/09 03:46 PM

I will have to try to find his contact information. If not it doesnt seem like it would be that hard to make them. Maybe a buff brahma cock on barred rock/cochin hens then take a son and mate it to a columbian? It seems like it might be a good start, I am just not 100% sure on what the columbian would do to barring. After I get the type somewhat down then maybe cross to a nice barred rock to improve barring.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 06/04/09 12:41 AM

Been a while since I've posted, much ground to cover.

First off, it's not like I intentionally selected for broodiness. Just happens my woodburner is on the first floor, and the incubator is in basement. Wonder what Darwin would have made of that?

Dan, very interesting photo montage. I wish I would have had the foresight to document all the color phases that have occurred during these projects. Everything from spangeled, double laced, partridge, to a really nice golden duckwing cockerel, and alot in between.

Had a first yesterday, had a chick killed by hail. These guys have only been going out in the run for 5 days. Most have not even ventured out yet,4 didn't find their way back in, in time, 3 just wet, a nice big silver laced must have caught one in the head.

Got a pretty good reality check a few days ago. Here I was feeling pretty good about these birds, like maybe I had accomplished something. That was until I went to the Southern Ohio Poultry Show, and got an eye full of how truelly massive a Brahma can get. You could've played chess on their backs.(or checkers in my case) I still have a ways to go.
Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 06/05/09 03:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by big medicine:
Wonder what Darwin would have made of that?
Quote:
Originally posted by big medicine:
Got a pretty good reality check a few days ago. Here I was feeling pretty good about these birds, like maybe I had accomplished something. That was until I went to the Southern Ohio Poultry Show, and got an eye full of how truelly massive a Brahma can get. You could've played chess on their backs.(or checkers in my case) I still have a ways to go.
hey don´t be down ok..it seems that some brahma are biger and heavier than BJG...but thats not the norm and your birds look big too so you are good, and if you want biger brahman(european type, joachim roosters reach 32inches) just buy a big pair from that ohio pultry show...anyways you are doing a very good job..
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 06/11/09 06:16 PM

Big Medicine,

I too got a reality check this past week when I decided to weigh my birds. My biggest hen is 9 pounds at four years old. That is the good news. My biggest cockerels from last fall weighed the same, and the pullets weighed in at around seven. So, I am in the same boat as you. I do hope you brought home some big birds from that Ohio show!

BTW, how soon do you make your first cull? A few years back I started culling at day one for ‘buff laced’ chick down coloration (deep gold swirled faces with pale yellow bodies), feathered legs down to the center toe, and pea combs. This year my chicks are surprisingly uniform – and my gold-laced chicks are absolutely perfect – but several of my buff laced chicks are clear yellow with no gold on the face (which I have not seen for a many years). I thought I might toe-punch them and hang onto them to see what they grow into rather than cull them this year.

Also, looking through my flock I noticed that one non-breeder pullet that has snow white lacing, hackle, and tail without so much as a hint of black flecking. Her base color is also deeply red, so I am thinking perhaps she is not homozygous dominant white, but is actually carrying blue. Perhaps I haven’t lost my blue gene after all! She isn’t much to look at (and is very small), but I may throw her in with my black laced red male and hope for a couple blue laced chicks. Time will tell.

Dan
Posted by: Jrsygntbrdr1

Re: Brahma project - 06/13/09 11:22 PM

Quote:


Got a pretty good reality check a few days ago. Here I was feeling pretty good about these birds, like maybe I had accomplished something. That was until I went to the Southern Ohio Poultry Show, and got an eye full of how truelly massive a Brahma can get. You could've played chess on their backs.(or checkers in my case) I still have a ways to go. [/QB]
Was just wanting to state, that breeders who have those massive Brahmas breed for the size and standard. You are using production birds in order to maintain the egg production. The massive Brahmas that you saw will undoubtedly have eggs few and far between.
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 06/13/09 11:39 PM

It would be nice if yall could introduce some columbian brahmas like light or buff from a show breeder to try to bring up size while maintaining color and egg production. Maybe take a couple hens and put them with a nice show rooster then take the best overall birds from that (type, color, size, egg production) and mate those back to a show bird one more time. After that breed those bigger birds into your flock and you should be set, It would speed it up a couple generations as far as type.
Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 06/13/09 11:43 PM

Yes, I do agree with you. His line of chickens are more productive and have that utility trait, but I must say that they are very good looking and have nice size too.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 06/16/09 08:07 PM

Dan,
as far as culls, as soon as a undesireable trait is apparent, I make that bird available for someone else to feed. These are always cosmetic faults, In the blue laced pen , lack of good leg feathering , I hold on a little longer for comb .

Comb has not been an issue in the siver lace line in quite a while, still see a sign of vulture hock occasionally, lack of proper color in either line

I did not buy any birds at the Southern Ohio show. After talking to the breeder, as Jrsygntbrdr1 states, the rate of lay of these behemoths makes me question the trade off.

Jrsygntbrdr1,
actually , the parent stock of my birds are from show lines, with the exception of the BLRW. The Brahma blood I used is known as a good laying line for show stock.

moo, that is probabley the route I will attempt.
Posted by: Jrsygntbrdr1

Re: Brahma project - 06/16/09 11:43 PM

Quote:

Jrsygntbrdr1, actually, the parent stock of my birds are from show lines, with the exception of the BLRW. The Brahma blood I used is known as a good laying line for show stock.
I had a feeling one of the Cornish was at least from show bloodlines. You don't get that massive head from just any hatchery.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 07/26/09 08:13 PM

Kind of took inventory of my young stock today. They are all running together. So this morning before I let them out, I sorted out all the silver laced pullets (about 60) put them in the outside run. Looked them over pretty good, took some pictures, then ran them out in the yard. Repeated the process with red pullets(30+-),red cockerels(25+-),and silver laced cockerels(40+-)which left about 20 little silver laced that I left inside.

At this age (mostly april and may hatches) I am happy with my silver laced pullets, very consistent, uniform in color and type, in as much as they show at this age.

Now the silver males always concern me at this age. They pretty uniformly look like crap, black necked, gangly, Icabod Crane looking goofs. Makes me wonder if I have unintentionally developed a pullet breeding line. It always looks like a lost cause, till they grow out.

The red chicks are all over the place. Combs range from pea, to rose, to small flat cushion, even a single comb. Some of the cushion combs have a break about 3/4 way up, a small line of feather and then the remaining 1/4 of comb.

Leg feathering varied greatly in the red chicks as well. As stated earlier, there were some compleatly clean legged chicks, most feathered down the outer toe, and a few had their middle toe feathered. Does not appear to be any trend between comb and leg feathering, or color for that matter.

Color wise, again all over the place, about have to post the photos, (which I can`t untill I get the big computer running). One thing I found interesting was 4 red columbian type chicks,3 male, 1 female, all blue phase, none black.

I`m happy with the sex ratio, more pullets than cockerels.

On a side note, I traded some young silver laced for a couple splash blue columbian Brahma pullets this weekend. I figure if I do get some huge lights to increase size on my silver laced, I might as well make it interesting.
Posted by: Black Clownfish

Re: Brahma project - 07/26/09 10:51 PM

Dan P and big medicine you guys have amazing birds! It's crazy how people just come out of nowhere with such awesome colors. I've never really liked brahams but that lacing sure adds some pizzaz.
Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 07/27/09 06:03 PM

yeah...keep the good work guys...we are all interested in your work... laugh
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 07/29/09 01:55 AM

I think I found a back way to post pictures on the old laptop. The Silver Laced pullets
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 07/29/09 01:59 AM



Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 07/29/09 02:11 AM

A group shot of some of the red pullets



Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 07/29/09 02:40 AM

Red cockerels





Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 07/29/09 03:15 AM

The homely boys

Posted by: Jim Parker

Re: Brahma project - 07/30/09 05:38 PM

if you would ever want to part with stock, please let me know.

Parker
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 07/30/09 10:58 PM

My hat is off to you Big Medicine. I love to see such large numbers and so much uniformity therein. Well done indeed. Next year I must buy some eggs of your silvers and your BLR's.

I do not have so many growing chicks this year. I culled heavily for combs, chick down all the way to the middle toe, and correct chick down color pattern at day one. I culled out all vulture hocks a month or so later and ultimately that didn’t leave me with nearly enough to grow up. My fingers are crossed to say the least.

It is wise of you to raise up so many birds and then make your selection. I couldn’t do that this year. It always seems that there are few mysteries that shed a bit of light on what’s lurking in your gene pool and a few ‘Eureka’s!’ that send you marching off in yet another direction – and that is where the fun is. I hatched a couple hundred chicks but now have about a half of that to finish growing. I won't learn as much about my gene pool this year - but I will undoubtedly learn a lot about the repercussions of culling to heavily! LOL.

I never did hatch any blue laced birds, so please do keep me in mind when you have a one to sell. I did pair up some black laced gold/red birds with you in mind and I do have a few promising chicks to show you (swap with you if they turn out and you are interested). I’ll have to get my camera out to the barn again. Below is a picture of a few of my current buff laced chicks. I listed a buff laced brahma cockerel on Eggbid today. I am at the point where I have more turning out than not, so it must be time for me to start passing them on. I have mixed feelings about “turning them loose”, but I guess it is time to get these birds out into the hand of other breeders.

Dan

Posted by: Jim Parker

Re: Brahma project - 07/31/09 01:59 AM

Dan,
I hope you keep me in mind for some of those buffs, they are awesome!!
Jim Parker
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 08/01/09 12:10 AM

Below are a few pictures of my current gold laced brahma chicks. They are about six to eight weeks old now - not a great time to be takng pictures of them. I am guessing these three are the proverbial ugly ducklings - but time will tell.



Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 08/01/09 09:40 AM

i have been inspired by this discussion and have just hathced my first indian dark X light brahma. but now i see i must do a cross to a jubilee indian too.

i understand the need for heavy culling and the dangers of it. i hope all goes well for you.

in mine i am just interested in seeing the improvement in size of the progeny. when a couple of my indian X malay pullets grow through perhaps i will cross my brahama to them. i was watching the brahma chase a young indian malay cross ckl today and as impressive as the bahma looked, he looked small compare to the malay cross.....i hope they make good table birds as i too have to cull hard.

k
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 08/03/09 04:34 PM

ruff,
Is that a dark over a light hen? Punch that into Henks' calculater, and check the colors possible when you mate the chicks back together.(If you have not done so already)
Posted by: Tim J.

Re: Brahma project - 08/05/09 04:24 AM

Dan P. & Big Medicine,
Again congratulations on your work. It is a pleasure to see such breeding especially today with current situation in our country. Anyway, a question as you were breeding your different varieties how many generations did you wait until you used or kept a male back to breed from? F1-F2 or so on. I ask as I am currently having my own breeding of a rare breed and variety and I made a cross and am in generation 3. I am not sure whether I should keep a male yet or keep breeding the male line pure in regard to taking the current pure sire( or uncle) back to his pullets and keep a cockeral back to the hens.
I appreciate your help.
Tim
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 08/06/09 04:24 PM

Tim,

I kept the best from my first crop of backcross males (3/4 brahma) and combined them with the best F2 hens (1/2 brahma) from an unrelated cross. I generally retained a cockerel from each of these ‘F3’ matings and bred them to two either full-blood partridge or buff brahma hens. I backcrossed to full-blood brahmas another time or two, but generally that is what I did. Most of the color/pattern genes I am dealing with are dominant – and I hatch a lot of chicks – so this approach worked out quite well for me. If I were dealing with a recessive color like Lavender I’d rely heavily on test mating.

Considering the state of the economy there could be no better time to infuse a bit of utility into our beauties. And considering the state of our culture when was the utility of beauty ever so apparent. <wink>

Dan
Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 08/07/09 03:24 PM

WOW....I know I am asking too much, but Dan P do you keep weight records on all of them? do you weight the chicks at hatch? and keep a weekly record on them?...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 08/07/09 07:09 PM

Nicamarvin,

I don’t keep many weight records _ weigh my adults though. I use a hands on grading system like the one used by the American Livestock Breed Conservancy for the buckeye project.

Here are a couple links to those PDF’s:
http://www.albc-usa.org/documents/ALBCchicken_assessment-1.pdf
or
http://www.albc-usa.org/documents/ALBCchicken_assessment-2.pdf

Dan
Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 08/09/09 11:13 AM

big medicine it was a light ckl over a dark indian. i am expecting the same colour results as i would for a sussex.

looking at dans photos i had better put a jubilee to the brahma too, i love those white laced birds.

what i am doing is half hearted as i have so many projects going. if a few pullets survive then good. so far i have found out that the brahma blood line i am putting in need a lot more care than everything else....the hawks have wiped out my first lot. perhaps it has something to do with their lovely quiet personality...must be dominant to the personality of my indian game and the shamo. even my pekins must have evolved with more hawk sense.

oh well the season has not quite started yet. see how we go and i will make sure i have heaps of photos.

k
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 08/09/09 02:44 PM

Looks great so far guys!

Tim, this is Michael, Nora's 'other kid'. We were at Johns and I think I saw some of your project birds, are they black and red with a flat comb?
Posted by: Tim J.

Re: Brahma project - 08/11/09 05:07 AM

Michael,
Hello. I wondered if "Moo" was you. Yes those were some of the projects. Were the Sumatra bantam males still there?

Dan,
Thanks for the input I will look for a male this year. I am at the 3/4 stage also. I am dealing with the partridge pattern.
Thanks
Tim
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 08/28/09 04:09 PM

Dan, we discussed earlier blue partridge, I thought I had the potential material to produce something close. Would these help you ? Need some work on the foot feathers on the cockerel.

Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 08/28/09 04:16 PM

Some of the young blue laced.

Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 08/28/09 04:18 PM

More of a blue laced buff color.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 08/28/09 04:24 PM

Not a very good shot, but I think this guy gives a little hint of a shot of sporting blood deep in his backround.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 08/28/09 04:44 PM

If any body is interested in taking on some of the off color side projects let me know. Blue partridge(more or less),blue buff columbian(only cockerels),new blood for existing partridge projects,
My computers have crapped out again, I am typing this from the Library, so don't expect immediate replies.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 08/28/09 11:45 PM

Hey Big Medicine,

That is a very impressive group of blue-laced birds!

I purchased a big partridge rooster of German decent this summer because I couldn’t find a blue partridge. I intend to breed him to my oldest, biggest, typiest buff laced girl this fall. She is a bit on the homely side – looks a bit like a Toulouse Goose actually – but I haven’t used her that much, so it would produce some large typey outcross birds for next seasons breeding pens.

Actually, from your flock I’d be more interested in a blue laced buff cockerel than in blue partridge. In them you have already done the work of combining the pattern gene with columbian and adding melanotic and blue gene (plus such a bird would not carry mahogany – a bonus for me).

I love the bird in the third photo down (the blue laced red cockerel). WOW! As I mentioned earlier, I paired up a few gold (deep red) laced birds this year with you in mind, but the reddest cockerel from this breeding looks to be hetero for pea comb and still has a completely black neck. I should have hatched more from this group. I have selected against autosomal red as it makes my buff laced cocks look too red-shouldered, and I have selected against mahogany as my goal is buff laced, not white laced red. Just the same, I am certain I still have both genes floating around in my flock that would work for you.

Dan
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 08/29/09 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by big medicine:
Not a very good shot, but I think this guy gives a little hint of a shot of sporting blood deep in his backround.
Wow, he looks more oriental like a Malay or something. They are coming along great!
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 09/17/09 04:18 AM

A pair of the the young blue laced birds
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 09/20/09 05:25 PM

Big Medicine,
What a beautiful pair of blue laced reds! I can't wait to see them at maturity.
Dan
Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 09/20/09 10:54 PM

well here is the start of my project, inspired by this discussion. a light brahma x dark indian game:



i am also doing a cross to a jubileee indian game then perhaps i will work to white laced reds who knows?
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 09/21/09 01:54 PM

Hey Ruff,
interesting, cleaner field of white than I would have expected. Does your Brahma male have a clean white saddle?

A little looser feather and more Brahma type than I remember in my early crosses.

Also a little better leg feathering than my early crosses,especially the Wyandotte imput in the blue laced project,which tended toward cleaner legs. Is your male vulture hocked?

Looks to have pretty decent width of skull.

Can you feel the Cornish blood in her breast when you handle her? That was very apparent, along with the short legs early on in mine. You look to have avoided the short leg issue.

Over all a good looking bird. more Brahma-ish than I started with.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 10/07/09 05:53 PM

Recent photo of one of the blue partridge cockerels

Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 10/10/09 01:29 AM

Big Medicine,

I am guessing your cockerels must be faster to feather than mine. Mine all still look like six pound chicks without tails - and that blue partridge boy you posted looks like a full blown brahma already! How old is he?

Please keep posting pics. I have a gorgeous collection of buff laced pullets this fall, but my cockerels are rather disappointing still. But, I am always saying that in the autumn.

Thanks for pushing forward,
Dan
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 10/10/09 01:27 PM

Dan,
there is quite a difference between my red and silver birds. The red males develop much quicker than the silvers,

The blue partridge cockerel in the photos could have been hatched as early as mid April. Still need work on the footfeathering. Are you aware of any breeders in the U.S. working on blue partridge Brahma large fowl. I would like to find a breeder who could utilize his potential. I may list him on eggbid, or take him to Columbus next month.

Your buff laced sound a lot like my silver laced. The pullets have looked good from the start, while the cockerels have looked like a waste of feed. Just in the past week or so I will come around the corner and see a cockerel in the yard and think "ya well maybe", which believe me is a step up from the impression they had been giving.

Just remember patience is a virtue.
big medicine
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 10/13/09 03:17 PM

Friend of mine picked up the blue partridge cockerel Sunday, will be going into a pen of (black) partridge Brahma hens. This is the same guy who has the blue light Brahma large fowl, that I got the splash pullets from. He is also working on black Brahma large fowl.

big medicine
Posted by: Rhea Dean Carter

Re: Brahma project - 10/13/09 04:49 PM

A friend of mine in Illinois had partridge and blue partridge Brahmas from German imports. Unfortunately, minks got into the barn and killed all of them. She did, however, sell hatching eggs on eggbid.com, so hopefully someone out there has some of her bloodline.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 10/20/09 12:02 PM

Is the buff brahma phenotype affected by the presence or absence of the pattern gene, Pg?

Conversely, if I add a double dose of Co to the partridge genotype would it be in anyway distinguishable from buff columbian?

Thanks,
Dan
Posted by: Henk69

Re: Brahma project - 10/20/09 03:58 PM

Co/Co plus Pg/Pg would be either buff columbian or very maybe pencilled like the partridge but with blacktailed/buff columbian males (braungebändert).
Posted by: Jrsygntbrdr1

Re: Brahma project - 10/25/09 09:02 PM

I'm sure you've mentioned this before big medicine, but since introducing the Cornish, have the egg-laying abilities decreased? Any fertility issues?

I realize the Cornish was added fairly early on in the project, but was just curious.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 10/27/09 01:17 AM

Well, kind of hard to say. Starting with the silver laced Cochins, as I did. If a hen had good type, and kept good clean lacing, she stayed in the breeding pen, regardless of age. Several of these ol gals lasted well past their best laying years, skewing the percieved rate of lay for the group, but helping to cement proper lacing in the line. It was this line that was accidentally crossed with white Cornish resulting in the start of this "project", so I don't really have a good starting point of reference.

As for fertility, I don't remember that ever being an issue. But it does make me wonder. Early on I was dealing with the short Cornish leg issue. I was trying to breed away from it, but until I introduced the Brahma blood it would still show up occasionally. I don't remember a high incidence of dead chicks before hatch that I read of with Cornish, or Japs.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 11/12/09 05:01 PM

Well folks the silver laced cockerels are finally starting to come around. Will try to get some updated photos posted.

Now for the big question. I will be for the first time offering breeding stock to serious breeders and serious hobbyist who wish to continue with the development of these birds. I would like for them to get popular enough to eventually be accepted by the APA. The question is what in your opinion would be a resonable asking price for a start of these birds?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 11/13/09 01:04 PM

Big Medicine,

I suggest putting some on Eggbid and letting the market determine their price. I tried to only sell my variety to people who seemed passionate about continuing my project and taking it to the next level. The objectives with my brahma projects are twofold: one is to reestablish utility in the breed and the other is too impart novel colors that set them apart from closely related breeds and hopefully renew a bit of interest in them. The issue for my buff laced variety is that the only other breeds that have a buff laced variety are polish and sebrights - so many of my birds are already being used to develop buff laced wyandottes and cochins here in the US. Wyandotte and Cochin breeders embrace new color varieties whereas brahma breeders have resisted all change - save for removing nearly all utility from the breed. Hopefully by the time buff laced cochins and wyandottes arrive on the scene my buff laced brahmas will be the dual purpose beauties I envision and my silver spangled brahmas will be well on their way to joining them. I suggest selling only the best you can afford to part with and pricing them high enough to discourage all but the most dedicated breeders at this point. Conversely, I have given away some of my best birds to people in the hopes of igniting their passion for poultry. Good luck!

Dan
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 11/20/09 03:21 PM

Some recent group shots.
Some of the silver laced cockerels, finally starting to show some promise, pullets in back pen.

Cluster of silver laced pullets.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 11/20/09 03:25 PM

Blue laced cockerels


Blue laced pullets with buff pullet I held back for Dan in front


Black laced pullets
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 11/21/09 12:07 AM

Striking uniformity in those pics Big Medicine! That flock is something of which to be very proud.

I feel like I ought to build another coop and buy some birds from you just to safeguard them for the future. smile

Good Job!
Dan
Posted by: Moo

Re: Brahma project - 11/21/09 04:49 AM

Ooo, the black laced red's are stunning also. Personally I like brahmas with the type that the black laced red's have,they dont look too cochin and look more...useful and dual purpose instead of just fluffy show birds. Great job!
Posted by: Sonoran Silkies

Re: Brahma project - 11/21/09 09:12 AM

Very pretty birds!

Henk, you said:
Quote:
Co/Co plus Pg/Pg would be either buff columbian or very maybe pencilled like the partridge but with blacktailed/buff columbian males (braungebändert).
Would Co/co Pg/pg have the same effect?
Posted by: Tim J.

Re: Brahma project - 11/23/09 03:22 AM

Big Medicine,
I again compliment you on your efforts to produce some truly outstanding fowl. Anyone who has bred largefowl knows the challenge it is produce a qulity bird. Let alone trying to produce an outstanding representation of the breed in type in another color variety. Drawing from the pictures I like the clarity of the lacing of your birds. I have not bred these vareties so do not know the very fine points. I will private message you in regard to your breeding if that is ok.
Thanks
Tim
Posted by: Wilt

Re: Brahma project - 11/23/09 08:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by moo:
Ooo, the black laced red's are stunning also. Personally I like brahmas with the type that the black laced red's have,they dont look too cochin and look more...useful and dual purpose instead of just fluffy show birds. Great job!
And there's me trying to get mine to look like Cochins and not single combed, laced, brahmas!!! confused confused




Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 11/23/09 09:19 AM

but wow they do look good tim.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 11/24/09 03:00 AM

Well I just put a trio on Eggbid, but could not get the pictures to take. So now we will see how it goes.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 01/03/10 06:49 PM

I just realized I mispoke at the start of this thread, when I stated that I had originally posted on this site at the conception of this project. I believe in fact it was on Brian Reeders old Onagadori site that Dr. Okimoto responded to my inquiry. Just wanted to correct that.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 01/15/10 01:05 AM

What visual cues might indicate that a laced brahma is heterozygous for columbian and homozygous for melanotic? And what if Co was absent altogether in the presence of eb, Ml, and Pg?

Dan
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 01/15/10 02:28 AM

Playing with Henk's calculator, absence of CO gets you double laced, if I figured right.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Brahma project - 01/15/10 10:49 PM

Henk's calculator, good thinking! Perhaps then the hetero Co birds will show some stippling?

My guess has been that the laced birds that are Pg/Pg, ML/Ml, Co/co birds will have thick black lacing with just a sliver of silver or gold running down the center and that the laced birds that are Pg/Pg, Ml/ml, Co/Co would have just half-moon crescents of black at the end of the feather. In any case, I pair up my buff laced birds per that potentially flawed understanding.

Any thoughts folks?

Dan
Posted by: Randy

Re: Brahma project - 02/01/10 02:49 AM

Hey guys, I just joined the forum. I have been reading these post for a while though. Just wanted to let you know I think you have wonderful projects going on. Beautiful birds.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/11/10 03:48 AM

Little update on the red birds. The best laced blue cockerels just did not develop enough size or width. They also sported cushion combs. I've selected down to two that have good pea combs, not a lot of height, but deceptively good full breast and weight. My youngest was helping the "old man" catch and sort birds a couple months ago and commented, "You can really feel the Cornish in this one," having ample experience helping her grandpa wrangle his SQ white Cornish. I concur, very noticable Cornish influence. They have lacing on the side of breast with too many solid blue feathers down the center. This shot is from last fall, shows the breast fairly well.



I guess I subscribe to the old adage "you have to build the barn before you paint it."

I also pulled an old veteran out of retirement to help put a little more size in the mix.





Thank you, Randy, for the kind words.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/11/10 04:06 AM

I also have the two splash blue columbian pullets in this pen, thinking they might help improve the shape and spread of the tale, impart a little looser feather, and possibly help clean up the lacing.



Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 04/11/10 06:39 PM

I recently rediscovered some old photos from fairly early in the project showing strong Cornish influence. The top still mostly double laced, the bottom starting single lacing. I assume they were taken after breeding season, based on the condition of the hens, and the red hens in the same pen.

Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 04/12/10 01:09 AM

I must post some photos of my first crosses. I'm not always happy to battle with my Photobucket album though.
Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 07/04/10 12:13 AM

Hello everyone, 'A very interesting forum indeed'
I am writing from NewZealand where we have a partially recreated Cochin from (Buff Rock, Buff Orpington, Chinese Langshan, and Rhode Island Red Bloodlines).
The aim of the initial breeder was by showing appreciation of the original Asiatic fowl to re-create these more utility type birds before they were transformed into there more fluffier forms. There has now been work started by a few keen breeders including myself to work further on the old asiatic forms and start work on the Brahma, the aim to keep this utility purpose.
I see this forum has not been used in a few months so i hope everyones still around, due to our seasonal differences im gathering everyone in the Northern hempisphere is busy breeding.
I am wanting to post a few pictures of whats been currently worked on i have various cochin/ indian game/ langshan X birds. If someone is able to offer advice it would be much appreciated.
On a personal note i am no genetics wizz and understand basic principles but am very eager to learn.
Congradulations to you all on your hard work.
Look forward to hearing back from you.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 07/05/10 01:22 AM

Still kicking, just not real high right now. Sitting here with ice on a surgically repaired knee. Have broken up the breeding pens, and hatched the last of this years chicks. Too young to be sure of what I have just yet. Some interesting birds starting to develope in the oldest batch of the blue laced red project chicks.







Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 07/05/10 01:26 AM

Mountain Man look forward to seeing pictures of you project.
Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 07/05/10 10:05 AM

Hey Big Medicine, your birds look neat! awesome colours.
however mine are having difficulty reaching these pages, i see that you have to load photos from a website, i am not sure how to load direct from my computer, an ideas as my photos dont exist on any website anywhere? cheers
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: Brahma project - 07/05/10 10:14 AM

You will have to use one of the image hosting sites, like for example http://photobucket.com/ or others, and paste the links to the pictures in your text. It is actually very easy to do(once you know how). Remember to upload as medium size , otherwise you will hear from the moderators.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 11/12/10 08:28 PM

Hey everybody, had a new wrinkle turn up in a cockerel out of my blue laced red pen that I was kind of liking the looks of. When he started shooting saddle feathers I was not happy with how light colored they were coming in. Then I noticed this. What do you make of this?





Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: Brahma project - 11/13/10 02:18 PM

You mean the small mottle-like spots on the saddle? I have something similar on one of my cocks(bottom of the page)

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=91924&page=4

In my case it must be some melanizer.(My cock is mottled)
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 11/14/10 04:36 AM

Yes, I should have specified this.
Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 11/14/10 11:35 AM

i would call it a positive if you are chasing as much lacing as possible.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 11/14/10 01:07 PM

What do you think is at play here ? I have never seen it in any of my birds before this.
Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 11/14/10 09:40 PM

i think it is a form of spangling. i see it in my males where i am trying to develop lacing. i look at it as promising but not there yet as in some of the genes required for lacing are heterozygous and i still have to work on homozygous. now don't ask me what genes as they are different in ckl and plt breeding lines.
Posted by: Bushman

Re: Brahma project - 11/14/10 10:27 PM

I have seen this in wheaten males, and they did not have spangling. It may very well have to do with a change in feed or some other external factor when the feathers were forming.
Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 11/15/10 10:45 AM

i think bushman you saw something different...more a fault in the feather, this is a definite collection of melanization at the feather tip.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 11/17/10 09:30 PM

So other than the lighter orange of the saddles, anyone see any draw backs to keeping this cockerel as a potential breeder. He at this point has the best width of the youngsters. Ruff did it pass on to the next generation in your pens?
Posted by: RuffEnuff

Re: Brahma project - 11/17/10 10:22 PM

i have never really tracked it. i regarded it as better than having the centre stripe black. i cull on many things and often rely on randomness to get me closer to what i am chasing. sometimes i put a rooster in a breeding pen briefly before i cull him just to ensure diversity. if the chickens survive to adulthood then it is more luck. choosing the biggest and widest birds in my opinion would be very important. i would not choose a weak sickly bird because it excelled in lacing. if i chose a lesser typed bird then the mate would have to excel in type. the randomness i hope removes my inclination to bias to the detrimentl effect of the line. i always look at taking longer to breed what i want and know the line is stronger for it.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/24/11 02:09 PM

Some recent shots of my blue laced red project birds. Still deciding which cockerels to use in this years breeding pens.

The best colored cockerel but smallish, with some of the girls.


Some of the other cockerels in the running


Some of the girls.

Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/24/11 02:12 PM

The cockerel with the spangled saddles never developed the type to be considered in the long run.
Posted by: Choc

Re: Brahma project - 03/25/11 11:36 PM

I have followed this thread with great interest over the last couple of years - you are doing a great job BM, keep up the good work! ;-)
Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 03/26/11 02:35 AM

hi all,
I posted a while back saying im working on a recreation project on the Brahma, it has been a while but i am now operational on Photobucket. I will now try to place a picture.

Those are some very inspirational birds you have there Big Medicine.

<a href="http://s872.photobucket.com/albums/ab290/Chookman/?action=view&current=DSC07769.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab290/Chookman/DSC07769.jpg" border="0" alt="Photobucket"></a>
Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 03/26/11 02:46 AM

Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 03/26/11 03:18 AM

For the record my genetics knowledge is limited. The Brahma is an unknown breed in New Zealand. My aim is to work on recreating one. As many members on this site are more familiar with actually having seen these birds in person your advice is important. Can any one offer advice in direction, and possible connections for colour based on what i have.

I am terribly interested in those birds you have above Big Medicine but im sure that will have to be well down the track.

Colours interested in are- columbian and buff columbian, silver pencilled, partridge, blue/black/splash laced.

I will now post a few more pictures of the phenotypes i have to work with, someone may have ideas on what i need further.

These are F2 birds. If anyone wants to know the F1 and subsequent parent stock for a particular bird let me know.

I am not always on here but will try keep upto date.
Cheers
MM




"These 2 girls were 3.5kgs (8 pound) at 18 weeks and laying, are currently 4kg (9 pound)at 21-22 weeks, my biggest pullets/hens".





"My favourite pullet"

Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 03/26/11 03:26 AM

3 columbian cochins in progress



Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 03/26/11 08:11 PM

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
hi there Mr.Mountain Man, that boys is het for Silver/Golden S/s+

my Only Advised to you is, just keep on line, recreating the light brahma color its a good starting point, only after you have come within acceptable standards(Body,Color)then and only then you should think of other colors...

thanks,
Posted by: Choc

Re: Brahma project - 03/26/11 11:31 PM

I would be interested in knowing the parent birds to all those pictures ;-)
Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 03/27/11 08:11 AM

Hi thanks for the interest.

Pictures 1, 6, 7 same parents
Father- Buff Blue Cochin R/ Columbian Plymouth Rock H (messy gold/silver Columbian)
Mother- Jubilee Indian game R/ Black Chinese Langshan H (dominant white black leakage)

Pictures 2&3
Father- Buff Columbian Cochin R/ Dark Brown Indian game H (Red partial black lacing on chest)
Mother- Buff Columbian Cochin

Picture 4
Father- Brother of rooster above although this one had no lacing on chest
Mother- Buff Cochin

Picture 5
Father- Buff Columbian Cochin
Mother- Buff Columbian Cochin R/ Dark Brown Indian Game H (Father to daughter mating)

Pictures 8, 9, 10
Father- Buff Blue Cochin R/ Columbian Plymouth Rock H (messy gold/silver Columbian)
Mother-From sister ‘Same parents’ or from Grandmother.

Ill try get photos of these on soon.

From the F2s i also have a black laced red cockerel ill get a photo of, and a few other odds and ends im planning on removing but will post on here and see if anyone thinks anything may be worth keeping.

Many Thanks
Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 03/27/11 09:19 AM

Here are the parent birds for the previous page.

Rooster for photo 1, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

Hen for 1, 6, 7

Rooster for 2, 3. photo 4 similar father

Hen for photo 5

Father of pic 5 and G.Father of 2, 3, 4.

G.Father of 1, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.


Bit late at night hope i have written that out well enough so it all makes sense.

Cheers for the interest sofar, all help gratefully received.

Bye for now.

Posted by: Poultch

Re: Brahma project - 03/27/11 09:39 AM

HI Mountain Man, welcome to the coop! I dont know why I missed your earlier posts.

I have to re-iterate what MM has said, that there are no Brahma in NZ, and nothing close to international standards, no Malay, the Cochin has been developed and doesn't show the Pti-B, rather Pti-L, the indian games are small, so the road is a hard one, but its do-able.
But what we do have are (some) decent sized sussex, (some) decent sized dottes (no silver pencilled/partridge varieties exist in any LF only bantam dottes), and some fairly leggy langhsans. And Pti-B is only really in the bantam pekin

I've seen MM's chooks and with the greatest respect to the quality of the photos - those 2 first pullets are big girls(of his first post- the gold based wheatons), and the cockeral (black tailed buff wheaton) in pic 4 has real promise (heaps of stature and presence, big broad head and that pre-req dewlap).
MM knows what I think as to a strategy etc but I hope some others will give him some tips.
Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 03/27/11 09:59 AM

Hi there Poultch, thanks for your kind words about the ladies they may oblige with an egg or 2 in your direction, your advice on a strategy will definately have its place.
I was on here with a few quick times last year, and as you do never got round furthering the matter till now.

Also i have since had an offer for reasonably sized wyandotte patridge roosters from the south island, with solid black chests and broken chests for the appropriate mating, do you think one of them may come in handy mated with the lighter of the 2 big pullets?. Getting the chap up will be the tricky thing tho. There are also could be some eggs from patridge plymouth rocks, and wyandotte rock cross eggs. But i was told the size of these birds is average, but colouring is good.
Cheers

Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/27/11 08:00 PM

Looking at what you have to work with, I would toy with taking the big buff girls and putting them under the red/gold and what looks like blue male with feather leggs a couple shots down the page. Work on getting as much size, pea comb, yellow leg color, and foot feathering, and type as you can get out of that line before worrying about adding feather colors much. Once you have established a fairly consistent "Brahma-ish" look, you could put a light Sussex male over some of your gold hens to bring in silver columbian color, and then breed back for type. I would concentrate on building the bird, the colors you can play with as opportunities arise.
Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 03/27/11 09:22 PM

Thanks for the advice Big M,
In regards to the blue one do you mean the one 3rd down this page? If you do hes already been turned into curry...
however i do have a son similar to him.
I fully see you point on what to concentrate on, i have had similar advice from Poultch, who also agrees on that mating with the red/gold roo. I do plan to hatch as many eggs as possible from those 2 big lasses, none of my other hens or pullets are over 3.2kg so i guess its definately important to use those 2 pullets as the main line.
Cheers
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 03/27/11 10:45 PM

I would use the male in the 5th picture in post 95367, if he's still among us.
Posted by: Mountain Man

Re: Brahma project - 03/29/11 08:17 AM

He has not made it to the pot luckily but has a bad case of rickets and limps on one leg, but is hopefully on the mend.

Thankyou for everyones advice sofar.
Posted by: cherylcohen

Re: Brahma project - 10/16/11 01:02 AM

Selling my gorgeous buff laced brahma flock
http://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=585434
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 10/20/11 12:27 AM

Hey everybody, had something a little different turn up in my blue laced red chicks this year. This cockerel is kind of a reversed red laced blue on his back, with a mostly clear red breast. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on what we may be dealing with here.


Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 10/20/11 12:30 AM

Posted by: Marvin

Re: Brahma project - 10/23/11 04:42 PM

Originally Posted By: Big Medicine
pics
Big Medicine they look like lakenvelder, meaning they look to be restricted on the body but with extra melanizers..

below is a gold lakenvelder


he looks kind of different because he is gold and your boy is red, and he is black and your boys is blue but the color color distribution is about the same, I believe he is also heterozygous for the columbian like restriction he is having, could be Co? or Db? don´t know..
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: Brahma project - 10/26/11 02:59 PM

I think your bird has somehow lost Pg and additionally it is very melanized.If it did not had blue, his neck would be totally black. Thirdly , it has red enhancers, which could possibly explain his red 'lace' on the back.
Posted by: Poultch

Re: Brahma project - 10/26/11 11:09 PM

he almost certainly wouldn't have Db, as Henk once coined it 'hackle black poison'
Wieslaw, that lace could be due to het Co.
But I aggree with red enhancers, didn't Blackdotte refer to recessive black involved with the deep red colouration and black hackles, something he believed was happening in a former poster from Austria'Joacimplod' (spelling) flock of mixed colour Brahmas?
Posted by: Henk69

Re: Brahma project - 10/27/11 09:22 AM

Joachim Diploid

http://www.krassesrudel.at/
Posted by: Poultch

Re: Brahma project - 10/29/11 08:45 PM

thanks Henk, sorry I might have forgotten to spell the name, but nothing forgetable about the birds
Posted by: Henk69

Re: Brahma project - 10/30/11 10:48 AM

Actually it was Dippold, a little pun intended.
Posted by: billy

Re: Brahma project - 12/07/11 09:23 AM

Big Medicine, do you have a web-site? I would really like to have the silver laced brahma's.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 12/07/11 11:47 PM

Billy, no I haven't set up a web site.

Right now I'm working some light Brahma blood into my silver laced trying to clean up some residual vulture hock issues. It will be a year or two before the lacing comes back proper.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 12/08/11 12:04 AM

Hey everbody, the former dark necked cockerel with the red breast we discussed last page, has been going through considerable changes as he's maturing. I'll post some before and after shots. The after shots are with a flash, kind of changed the colors some, but you get the idea. I would be curious what you all think here.




Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 12/08/11 12:05 AM




Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 12/08/11 12:16 AM

This has been a strange one, never had one look like this guy, or ever make such a drastic late change.
Posted by: Big Medicine

Re: Brahma project - 12/08/11 11:59 PM

I had been considering putting him over some splash blue columbian hens (splash blue lights). At least when he was looking more like a red columbian. Now not sure what to make of him.

All my other cockerels in these projects have historically had either single laced breasts, or the solid dark breast of double laced, or partridge patterns. Other than when columbian had recently been brought in to improve something with the project, resulting in poor partial lacing, which is not the case with the red birds.

I have limited experience with colors/patterns outside of those mentioned. I would appreciate any ideas/experience here.
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: Brahma project - 12/09/11 01:08 AM

I have also limited experience with those colours , but change from red to black breast says to me, that your cockerel might have been somehow hormonally challenged before. Just a quess.
Posted by: Henk69

Re: Brahma project - 12/09/11 07:12 AM

x2
Posted by: KazJaps

Re: Brahma project - 12/09/11 11:33 AM

My first thought when I saw him - still a young boy, and young laced stock go through dramatic changes as they mature.

I don't know if Db is involved in your bird. Mh - Mahogany might do similar strange things?

If you start getting bleached out (silvery) chick downs, then you can start suspecting Db (or Di). Co (particularly with Ml -eumelanisers) should add eumelanin to the chick down, particularly the back. And Co/Co tend to be darker downed than Co/co+. So the chick down might give some clues.

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As to Db - Dark Brown. It is very similar to Co in that you can have eumelanisation of neck hackles - just add heaps of eumelanisers.
Eg, this following rooster went through some similar changes as a youngster (particularly on the breast):




One of the most tested roosters I possessed, so I know the following as accurate:

His genotype:
e+/e+, Bl/bl+, Db/db+, co+/?, Lav+/lav, Mo+/mo, Pg/? plus eumelanisers.

p.s. -his parents were Black Mottled father and solid Blue mother (dark blue). So Db can hide in solid eumelanin birds, including with het. E/e+ or ER/e+.

When I crossed a closely inbred sister (with e+/e+ and Db like chick down) back to this blue boy, I got some unusual results in the sons (hens were drab brown though - not pretty).

Eg:


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The following boy is a much later generation, distantly related, with wheaten in there too:
As a youngster:

Older...

-definitely co+/co+ (cream chick down, not buff), but don't know about Db, & was a red enhancer introduced too. Something was putting partial phaeomelanin on the breast.

p.s. - I never once got a solid phaeomelanin neck in these d'Uccles segregating Db. They went from columbian striped right through nearly solid eumelanin (including ER/e+ or E/e+ ones). Always eumelanisers in the mix.
Posted by: er

Re: Brahma project - 03/02/12 12:49 PM

Congratulations for that color and your work Big Medicine
Posted by: Wieslaw

Re: Brahma project - 03/02/12 03:39 PM

Welcome to the coop. I have to warn you, that your name can possibly cause confusion.
Posted by: Poultch

Re: Brahma project - 03/02/12 10:01 PM

Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Welcome to the coop. I have to warn you, that your name can possibly cause confusion.

funny Wieslaw, thats why we will need to use superscripts! Just as well we dont talk much anout erminette.

and welcome to the coop er!
Posted by: er

Re: Brahma project - 03/03/12 12:58 PM

merci