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#103876 - 05/27/12 02:08 AM Re: white australorp [Re: jonnydot]
jonnydot Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 298
Loc: australia
To try to uncomplicate things my understanding is "if the Australorp chicks (which should be all blue from a black /splash mateing) are bred back to their sires I should get white" or have I misunderstood?

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#103877 - 05/27/12 02:16 AM Re: white australorp [Re: jonnydot]
SilverSilkie Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By: jonnydot
ARE all splash's recessive white ?


Splash have a double doses "Bl/Bl" of the Dominant Blue gene wich dilute only black-pigment into "dirty white" (=Splash)

Recessive white is an other gene "c/c" (=colorless), this gene block the production of both pigments black and red.

So Splash and recessive white are 2 different expressions of the working of 2 different genes.

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#103879 - 05/27/12 02:22 AM Re: white australorp [Re: jonnydot]
SilverSilkie Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By: jonnydot
To try to uncomplicate things my understanding is "if the Australorp chicks (which should be all blue from a black /splash mateing) are bred back to their sires I should get white" or have I misunderstood?


an theoretical example on unicolor Black (which need extra melanizers to be completely black in the phenotype) :
E/E bl+/bl+ = Black phenotype or no dilution of black-pigment
E/E Bl/bl+ = Blue phenotype or 1 doses dilution of black-pigment
E/E Bl/Bl = Splash phenotype or 2 doses dilution of black-pigment

I think you are confused by the other used term for "Splash" which is "dirty white" but have genetically nothing to do with "white" as recessive white "c/c" (=colorless) or Dominant White "I/I" (=Inhibitor).

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#103882 - 05/27/12 01:51 PM Re: white australorp [Re: jonnydot]
Marina Offline
Chicken

Registered: 05/11/11
Posts: 91
Loc: New Zealand
jonnydot - I've just had a read through this thread you are referring to - they're mainly guessing. You'll get reliable info here on this forum.

I'm not an expert but I know that Blue over Splash will give you 50% Splash and 50% Blue offspring. The Blue will be a lighter shade than that in offspring from a Black x Blue mating (which gives you 50% black and 50% blue offspring). Splash and Black breed true, Blue doesn't.

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#103888 - 05/27/12 06:30 PM Re: white australorp [Re: jonnydot]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3768
Loc: Denmark
Quote:
ARE all splash's recessive white ?


Quote:
or have I misunderstood


Yes, you have misunderstood something. If all splash Autstralorps were recessive white, they would be white and not splash to begin with. It's a contradiction of some sort.Have you ever met a pair of people,both with brown eyes, who have got a child with blue eyes? That's because the blue eyes are recessive to brown eyes, but they both carried the (hidden)genes for blue eyes. That's because one of the grandparents on both sides had blue eyes(for example). Now the genes for blue eyes met each other in the child. Is it clearer now?

Here, recessive white and blue/splash are two separate things. A bird can carry black genes and blue genes and other genes at the same time, but if it receives 2 genes for recessive white, it will be white, no matter how many genes for other colours it has, because 2 doses of recessive white will block all other colours.

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#103891 - 05/27/12 09:34 PM Re: white australorp [Re: Wieslaw]
jonnydot Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 298
Loc: australia
OK I think I'm getting the handle on things...how does this sound?...what I need to do is get an australorp of any colour ,but it must have the recessive white gene ..cross this bird with another australorp and use this offspring to to breed back to it's sire and that should give me a percentage of white?...as now the first cross offspring will also be recessive white ?,,,alternatively I need 2 birds that carry the recessive white gene and this mating will give me a percentage of white? if this is correct would both birds that carry the recessive white gene have to be related to firm the gene up or can they be unrelated birds that both carry the recessive white gene?

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#103892 - 05/27/12 10:17 PM Re: white australorp [Re: jonnydot]
jonnydot Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 298
Loc: australia
recessive white mated with recessive =white? (and will this be dominant white?)...then white (dominant?) to white (dominant?) =white (dominant?)...lol I know what I mean !!! I think this is the expression c/c (recessive) over c/c (recessive) = l/l(dominant)or have I confused things again? cheers for every ones help!!

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#103894 - 05/28/12 12:10 AM Re: white australorp [Re: jonnydot]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: jonnydot
recessive white mated with recessive =white?

yes

Originally Posted By: jonnydot
(and will this be dominant white?)...

no

Originally Posted By: jonnydot
I think this is the expression c/c (recessive) over c/c (recessive) = l/l(dominant)or have I confused things again? cheers for every ones help!!


yes and no!!

you are alluding to epistasis which is when one gene's allele/s overides the affect of another gene's allele/s, this is not dominance per se. Dominance is when one allele of that same gene is dominant over another allele in its expression, like C+ is dominant over c

like all the others have said Jonny, recessive white and blue are 2 separate genes, and their mode of inheritance and expression are different, same with dominant white.
think of it (the chook genome) like a stretch of road: dominant white, recessive white and blue are all points along the road, different positions therefore different genes.

since they are different genes, it doesn;t mean that a bird can't have recessive white, dominant white and blue at the same time (or any of the 3 combined).

but you only need recessive white as the Australorp standard requires slate legs and bay eye, if you threw dominant white into the mix you may well turn the eye colour orangey, recessive white alone will suffice and is ideal

so to find a bird with recessive white you need to do some test mating, if you find a bird thats completely white mate it to a black chook and if any of the offspring are white (they may have some black flecks with possibly gold bleeding through in the top part of hackle) you know that the parent bird is dominant white, which is what you dont want,
you need to find a white bird that will give only black or black with barring offspring when crossed to a true breeding black bird.
the other way to know if a bird is recessive white if it pops up from a black pen with only black parents, therefore since you know that recessive white is recessive then it lay unnoticed in the parent birds.


Edited by Poultch (05/28/12 12:12 AM)

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#103897 - 05/28/12 03:35 AM Re: white australorp [Re: Poultch]
jonnydot Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 298
Loc: australia
thanks for that info !! I will endeavor to find a couple of recessive white birds !!

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#103898 - 05/28/12 07:08 AM Re: white australorp [Re: jonnydot]
jonnydot Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 298
Loc: australia
FOUND THIS.....Black Australorp- Click to Enlarge

Black

E/E Ml/Ml bl+/bl+ W+/W+ p+/p+ r+/r+
Solid Black, white skin, slate legs, single comb may have id+ dermal melanin

Blue

E/E Ml/Ml Bl/bl+ Pg/Pg W+/W+ p+/p+ r+/r+
Blue Laced Blue, white skin, slate legs, single comb may have id+ dermal melanin

Splash

E/E Ml/Ml Bl/Bl Pg/Pg W+/W+ p+/p+ r+/r+
Blue Splash, white skin, slate legs, single comb may have id+ dermal melanin

White

E/E Ml/Ml c/c W+/W+ p+/p+ r+/r+
Solid White (Recessive White), white skin, slate legs, single comb may have id+ dermal melanin

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