Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#102548 - 02/29/12 01:33 PM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Wieslaw]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 657
Loc: New Zealand
Htul,
I would question whether or not that hen is actually eWh/eb. This alone in my experience is a game changer.
I've seen wheaton segregate in NZ wyandotte stocks (gold lace, never silver lace) and also in barnies.
And to that point I am almost certain a lot of the Aussie barnies are wheaton based (from some hatch downs and desriptions mostly from BYP) also. In NZ at least there is a bit of interchangablity of barnies and gold laced most likely because of the standard which requires heavily laced chested males (UK standard) which encorporates the need for Co.

I've got heaps of eWh/eb splits (or at least have had) can take some pics of examples of some of them for you Htul, but this hen is eb/eWh Pg/? ml?/ml, Co/co+ and she hatched out with much more dorsal eumelanin markings (much more obvious than the one you posted).
There is another hen here that has faint but detectable single lacing on chest, she shares a same genotype as the hen above, but is most definately Ml/ml?


Edited by Poultch (02/29/12 01:36 PM)

Top
#102555 - 02/29/12 10:47 PM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Poultch]
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 490
Loc: Australia
Wieslaw: re: the Indian game and crossing to other breeds: this is a pullet from somebody who crossed light sussex rooster with Indian Game hen:



again, taken from yet another discussion thread at the same local Australian poultry forum.

There is actually a bit of similarity in terms of degree of eumelanisation over the wings as in the hen that Poultch has linked to (although the hackle in the IG cross hen is much darker).

Poultch: I think this is a valid point: I actually very recently came across some blue partridge wyandotte pics at BYP (on that occassion from the UK) that look to me to either be eWh or eWh/eb hets.

Yes, I have seen the same in Aussie barnies too - and would not be too surprised if the same did (occasionally?) occur in GLW (I wonder why you've never observed it in SLW?).

However, for that particular hen, I suspect she actually is eb/eWh: and my rationale for thinking this is the following pic (from one of the links I posted earlier):



- at the top of her right shoulder, she seems to have dark undercolour that would seem inconsistent with eWh/eWh

Top
#102557 - 03/01/12 02:02 AM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Htul]
Henk69 Online   content
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3004
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Htul
...at the same local forum, another breeder mentions crossing a SLW to a columbian wyandotte (so, offspring would be eb/eb instead of eb/ewh) and mentions that they are 'broken laced'. Henk, if this is correct - you may need to adjust the calculator!)

broken laced or black tipped like in the picture above?
I asked a dutch breeder what you get when you cross single laced to columbia wyandotte. Incomplete single laced he answered.

Quote:
Wieslaw: Smyth, in Crawford's PB&G hypothesises that Pg on e+/e+ would theoretically be pencilled, except for the salmon breast.

A common color in Serama. But often "charcoal" is present also.

Top
#102558 - 03/01/12 02:15 AM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Henk69]
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 490
Loc: Australia
These are a couple of the responses to the OP's question as to what SLW X LS would look like:

blackdotte :SLW X LS will give 100% chicks that will be silver with broken (incomplete ) lacing
David


Martin Holmes Will give as David says plus wrong leg colour and comb type not to mention overall type . I use Silver/laced in Dottes over Columbian Dotte(same colouring , other than under colour as Sussex) to thin out the lacing ( in 3 generations ) and clear up the black tail feathering . I can't see any problems using the sibling females for one generation only .


Though the owner of the first bird that I posted a pic of then posts to illustrate that 'broken lacing' may not always result, and can be completely absent.

Looking back over my comment - the calculator looks correct (half-laced)for eb/eb, but probably not for eb/eWh (in light of this discussion)

Top
#102559 - 03/01/12 02:20 AM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Htul]
Henk69 Online   content
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3004
Loc: Netherlands
Yes, the finetuning of wheaten hets and sorts is not built in yet.
These results do support a dominant behaviour of wheaten though... wink

Top
#102560 - 03/01/12 02:34 AM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Henk69]
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 490
Loc: Australia
....of that particular wheaten (and also in contradiction with Carefoot's wheaten that was both dominant and recessive: using that very cross of GLW X LS) wink

Top
#102562 - 03/01/12 10:29 AM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Wieslaw]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1872
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
According to a link I recently posted , Ml behaves recessive in the presence of Co. I have to find it again.
well maybe only on Wheaten...


Top
#102565 - 03/01/12 03:04 PM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Marvin]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3406
Loc: Denmark
Actually , there were 2 teams researching Blue Laced Andalusians, either of them with different opinion on the role or presense of Co in the birds. So I consider the question still open.

Top
#102566 - 03/01/12 03:15 PM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Wieslaw]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1872
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Actually , there were 2 teams researching Blue Laced Andalusians, either of them with different opinion on the role or presense of Co in the birds. So I consider the question still open.


how about laced sebrights?... whistle


Top
#102571 - 03/01/12 06:23 PM Re: Why does Co/Co Pg-Ml/pg+-ml+ ..... [Re: Marvin]
Terry Offline
Bantam

Registered: 02/19/12
Posts: 47
Loc: Qld Australia
I have accidently performed this mating in the past and then experimented a little with the progeny.
This bird is the product of a GLW X LS

Notice the light edging across the back just behind the hackle. The bird hatched with Co wheaten style down. The black edging was less noticeable a few months after this photo, but became stronger after the second adult moult.

This bird was mated back to GLW and did not produce a single offspring with lacing that I thought was worth continuing with, although the crescent edge was present in many of them. I never counted and recorded numbers of phenotypes that were produced, but none had eb down at hatch and none had Co eb type down. All second generation still appeared a variance of wheaten down but I did not photograph them and I am working for 7yr old memories.

My second 'experiment' was the reverse mating LS x GLW and produced the following :-


black crescents are clearly visible over the back area, as is dark underdown, although these birds did not have as dark underdown as a pure Co Wyandotte. The ckls from this mating had black stripes in the saddle hackle. The dark underdown and saddle markings in the ckls is why I viewed the eb gene as dominant to the eWh, although I discounted the fact that these birds all hatched with Co Wheaten down pattern.

These hens were mated back to a Columbian Wyandotte Roo. Down colour in these chicks was evenly spread between Co eb and Co eWh patterns. All birds produced were typical columbian pattern. One quarter (roughly) should have been eb/eb, Co/Co, Ml-Pg/+ but none of them had greater lacing or crescents than the F1 generation.

Now what is even more interesting is the outcome of another 'experiment' I have in my yard at present, but I do not have a photo as yet. Its what happens when a Wheaten bred Blackred Modern Game flies the fence into your pen of large hens just prior to the breeding season. Somehow he managed to serve a Large GLW hen. One chick was produced which I did not distinguish as different from the other wyandottes at hatch. But the bird now has extensive markings exactly the same as Smyth reported for Ml-Pg/+. This bird is also definitely eb/eWh. The only difference to those produced from the LS matings is that it is Co/+ instead of Co/Co.

Therefore I suspect that the birds in Smyth's diagrams were also heterozygous for Co and that is the critical difference

Top
Page 2 of 6 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  Admin @ The Coop, Henk69