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Why some (Asiatic) partridge hens have NO wingtriangle ?


Why other (Asiatic) partridge hens DO have wingtriangle ?

brown/partridge and duckwing hens do not have the wing triangle. Columbian like restrictors can produce a wing triangle on them though.

and the pattern-gene have nothing todo with it ?

2 young cockerels both from eb/eb parents with het. Co, Ml and Pg.

Are the phenotypes different because of 1 and 2 doses of Ml ?

This one was born with a Columbian chick pattern

and turn out as a "Silver Quail" with Co/!, Ml/! (wingtriangle) and most possible no Pg.

This one was born with as a complete black chick !!

and turn out to be a "Black Partridge" with Co/!, Ml/Ml (wingtriangle) and most possible no Pg.

Your last pic seems to confirm my theory that one dose of Co is hypostatic to homozygous melanizers cha/cha and maybe Ml too.

Looks to be that the expression of one dose of Co is "partially" masked by the double doses of melanizers but Co still comes to the surface in moments during the growing process !
But you seem to confirm that black heads are caused by "cha/cha", yes ?

An other remarkable thing is that the Columbia restriction not seem to work all the time (both have a transversale dark line on the wing). I saw photos in Sigrids book on which where to see several transversale lines so the Silkie look as a zebra !

I am not completely sure yet about the sexe but this chick (+- 2 months) should be a female (she have a vault) but she have a similar phenotype as the young cockerel above (+- 3 months) and so the same genotype (eb/eb S/- Co/co+! Ml/Ml? pg+/pg+) .


-Or she have an exceptional pattern for a female !?
-Or he have an exceptional vaulted skull for a male !?

An other strange thing is this chick

She is a "Blue Silver Partridge", every black is diluted except the crest-feathers !

Why the single dose Bl/bl+ have no effect on the (cha/cha) black crest ?

PS she have also the Co restrictor because she have a wingtriangle !

The "moorkop" (moorhead) actually is a blue patterned chicken with the blue fading away towards the tail.

I not understand "moorkop" are blue patterned ??

This one have nothing blue but have a "moorhead" !

I mean for instance the moorkop owlbeard. It shows that the blue is much darker on the melanized head than on the tail.

Ah ok. Do I see it correct, is the "moorkop" epistatic ?
I wonder, If I cross such a hen (Blue Silver Partridge with moorkop) with a similar rooster could this result in as good as white (Silver Splash) Silkie with a moorkop ?

Does anyone have an idea what genotype have the (Nederlandse Uilebaard Moorkop) "white moorhead owlbeard" ?
Can this be double doses Blue (Bl/Bl) with cha/cha ?

Next to "black" crest they are also with "gray" crest and with "light" crest on these "Blue Silver Partridge"

When the "black" crest should be caused by the charcoal-gene "cha/cha" than the "gray" crest should be "Cha+/cha" and the "light" crest should be "Cha+/Cha+" .
But than the charcoal-gene could not be a recessive gene but must be a Dominant gene => Black crest "Cha/Cha", gray crest "Cha/cha+ and light crest cha+/cha+, no ?

recently saw some hatch down photos of chicks which for all money I would have said Co restriction/involment, eb and but they feathered out fully black, Ml was involved along with other pheom enhancers

Charcoal:
There may be more alleles at this locus.
In my findings it behaves as an incomplete recessive. One dose has little effect on males, but is often noticable on females (back of the neck)
So one could defend it as a dominant gene too I guess, especially in a permitting genotype (e^b etc...)
In scientific literature it is mentioned as both dominant and recessive, but they may refer to different alleles.

The moorkop is a lightly spangled phenotype (getoept).
Columbian-like restrictors and melanizers in play.

I read already about possible more alleles on the cha-locus but with your extra clarifications it start to make more sence to me.

For the "white moorhead owlbeard" what e-allel it should have, I suppose "eb" even the spangled-tails are "ER" DbPgMl !

I not breed Hamburgs or Owlbeard but Silkies and these "Blue Silver Partridges" should be "eb" with charcoal. I have it on a young rooster and on a young hen in pure (intending as blackhead).


You can see the Columbian-like restrictors have much more effect on the rooster than on the hen.


When these 2 are crossed I should become +-25% Splash (with all the Silver and Columbian restrictors it should be as good as "white") with keeping the (intense) blackhead !

Is my reasoning correct ?

I got the blackhead effect with heterozygous blues. I don't think that splash would improve the contrast.

I could find a little webpage on this subject (it's in Dutch)
click
Here is mentioned blue undercolor and crossings with white black-crested Polands.

What is the genetic-code for these white black-crested Polands ?

http://www.polishbreedersclub.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=118503470

A strange explanation about crossing a Black white-crested Poland Rooster to 2 white black-crested unknown breed hens.

The F1 offspring are Blue (so the hens should be Splash) but they also produced Black offspring !!!

They must be heterozygous blue.

So you say the white black-crested are Bl/Bl (Splashes) along with there other (hidden) color-genes ?

For the interested.

FROM BRIAN READER :
"The black crested whites were made from lakenvelder and other columbian birds over polish. It seems that the Black cresteds then are most likely columbians with eumelanin intensifiers, perhaps charcoal or ebony. They are not clean because there is much heterozygosity and yousee ER, eb, Co, char, S ans s+ at least segregating in these birds. They may have Pg and Ml, owing to their polish heritage, because even if they were made with white polish, the whole group of polish seem to be segregating for most of the traits seen in polish. Dominant white only shows black as spots or ticks and recessive white covers the black altogether in most cases".

No

Ok

Co is incompletely dominant with e+ and eb hens. There is remnant stippling on the back of both hens.
eg:
e+ Co/co+:

Co/co+ expresses more with males.

Then there is Db that gives similar phenotype in hens.
Don't know about Di - might do similar?

Then the quail pattern (eumelanised and with eumelanin restrictor), can produce similar phenotypes (hets. - eg quail cross columbian -tends to be incompletely dominant in adult phenotypes).

Plus, silkie feathers with dark undercolour - tends to show through more to surface.

On the shown photo it's visible the Co/co+ hide the Salmon red chest of the hen but it not causes a wingtriangle !

How the dark (Silkie) undercolor can be changed to light undercolor ?
By adding "Ml" ?

wheaten?

Yes sure wheaten (but I want to stay in Silkies => eb/eb).
Would "Ml" possible cause lighter undercolor on eb/eb ?

The reason I not want to bring in wheaten is I breed only Silver-based Silkies and I fear with bringing in wheaten I would bring in the Salmon-red (autosomale pheomelanin or autosomale red whatever it is called !) so wheaten is not an option for me.

Autosomal red is not chromosome linked to wheaten, but there is always the risk of autosomal red in a cross...

I read this :

"there are two different forms of pheomelanin; one sex-linked occurring on the z-chromosome called the s-locus and the other autosomal called the Ap-locus (Ap for autosomal pheomelanin as opposed to S for sex-linked pheomelanin)".

and :

e+ - Duckwing, the pattern and melanic distribution of the red junglefowl, i.e., salmon breasted, stippled back hen and black breasted red rooster.

eb - Brown, The male is nearly identical to the e male and the female is similar to the e hen, but with no salmon breast, the breast rather being identical to the back.

eWh - Wheaten, The male is again nearly identical to the e male, and the hen is solid salmon, the entire body like the breast on the e hen.

In this text I should believe that "salmon red" is inextricably related to e+ and eWh birds, no ?

the salmon red is not the same as autosomal red. One dose of columbian completely removes unenhanced salmon red. Autosomal red typically breaks through one dose of columbian.
Autosomal red can enhance the salmon red.
So in a way e+ and wheaten help to express autosomal red.

In other words their are not two different forms of pheomelanin (sex-linked and autosomal) but 3 => salmon red !

This becomes a little confusing reading different explanations !
-What exactely is the "salmon red" ?
-Is it the same on e+ (concentrated on hens chest) as on eWh (distributed on hens entire body) ?
-Is it visible on the e+ and eWh roosters when these are based S/S ?

From kippenencyclopedie.nl a Silver wheaten rooster :

On his shoulders is this salmone red or autosomale red ?

Backwards
-the autosomal red would be covered by the black parts of the roosters. Maybe it would be able to break through in khaki or splash dilutions.

-Yes, in het wheaten the red is pushed to the edges of the breast and onto the shoulders/wings.

-see explanation below

Genetically there are as many red genes as the numbers of enzymes/proteins (etc) needed to make or handle the red pigment.
A few of these genes are only noted because a mutation knocked them out or put them in overdrive.
There is a mechanism that pheomelanin is automatically produced as eumelanin is blocked, but that is a different topic.

I don't think salmon red is on roosters shoulders.

When it is not salmon red on this rooster shoulders than it should be sex-linked red or autosomal red or offcourse one of the many red genes as the numbers of enzymes/proteins (etc) needed to make or handle the red pigment, as you explained above.

a silver breeder is a "tsjokelair"

The synthesis of red pigment should be the same in all types of red features. The reason that the shoulderfeathers of the male become red is because the cells are programmed to do that, probably under influence of the male hormones.

Thinking out loud:

If the sex linked red (silver/gold) protein step is limiting in the male's shoulder cells, the silver male gets white shoulders.

The female chicken needs more groundcolor to hide while brooding.
Higher levels of red expression were favored, etc...

SilverSilkie,
you have a great variation in phenotypes, so obviously not talking about homozygous lines. Plus, incompletely dominant mutations are renown for showing variability in expression. So I don't think it means much at all the variability in the amount of phaeomelanin on the wings.

Both eb and e+ have dark undercolour, & if you have het. eumelanin restrictors with silkies, this undercolour is more visible than normal feathered birds (simply due to the hookless feather structure sitting more open, not tight against the body). That's all I was saying.

This is eb/eb hen without eumelanin restrictors:

An old photo of a Partridge Silkie hen I had (no eumelanin restrictors)


A couple of silkies (probably eb based) - het. for eumelanin restrictors (crossing lines):




The following roo going by chick down in his offspring was probably Db, not Co:




Your chicks don't look typical eb Db, but maybe Co in there (more eumelanin in chick down)?

A e+/e+ silkie crossbred pullet I had:


Read PB&G about e+ & eWh salmon pigment in hens. Apparently its a different phaeomelanin pigment compound to the other phaeomelanin pigment in chickens (ie that's one way to tell the difference - chemical tests).

I can make nothing from that second picture...

My couple of decades old photo of a Partridge Silkie hen? All I have of her
She has no eumelanin restriction from side view, & no visible salmon breast.

Either that or nothing .

That is officially the most fuzzy picture ever posted
What is that in front of her, a poppy?

Think it could be your eyesight & not my teenage photography skills

And I could be underestimating a bit on how many decades ago?

Was thinking maybe daffodils or jonquils in the rose garden (& a bit of cardboard stuck on the photo?). Kind of a mystery isn't it.

Salmon red breast is visible both on s+/s+ and S/S roosters if they are e+/e+ Hf/Hf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-3urKFP_7I


Here are videos with henny wheatens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXDOBDut1eI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEp4efBJydM&feature=related

From PB&G, page 116:

Thank you all for the information. All becomes more clear in the theory. The problem stay the practice. As little breeder I not have a little labo-test room. I (and many others with me) must do it on visual in our poultry. Seems to be a fact that many written information contradict each other or at least can be called confusing, as Henk commented on the photo of the Silver wheaten rooster "I don't think salmon red is on roosters shoulders" and he probably is right.

Maybe after completely understanding this page http://kippenjungle.nl/chickengenetics/theory.html I will be able to combine both.

Interesting. So I guess the synthesis pathways are not 100% identical...

What I quoted from PB&G just means is that the female salmon pigment in e+ & wheaten hens is a different phaeomelanin pigment as found in males (& probably different to female neck phaeomelanin pigment too). So with this information, there is no reason to jump to the assumption that red wing bow pigment in that particular rooster is the same as female salmon pigment?

Some Silver Wheaten lines have an extra phaeomelanin intensifier (eg as in Salmon Faverolles, etc). This is not eWh/eWh S/S or S/-, rest wild-type as other Silver Wheaten lines have clean silver roosters & medium salmon shades in hens.

There are multiple threads here at The Coop that mention that various red intensifying mutations seem to be able to cause red leakage on S - silver based birds. S is a leaky gene. This red leakage can occur on eb based birds too (where hens don't naturally have salmon pigment). So the salmon pigment compound as found in e+ & wheaten hens is a different issue.

It's more to do with the sexually dichromatic phenotypes in chickens: the placement, intensity & type of phaeomelanin with each gender, and what effect each mutation(s) (& combinations) have on these wild-type male/female phenotypes. There are many, many genes that go into the make up of these wild-type male/female plumage colour/pattern phenotypes.

P.s. - there is often no direct correlation with sex chromosome Z genes to the main differences in sexually dichromatic male/female plumage colour phenotypes, and autosomal genes also influence this as Wieslaw has indicated with Hf (an autosomal mutation that switches on aromatase in males). The homologs of chicken sex-linked s+ gene (SLC45A2 or MATP) are found on autosomal chromosomes in mice and humans (ie chicken S locus equivalent in humans & mice are autosomal in the latter two, not sex-linked). So it is quite complicated.

Ok, this all makes sence but is indeed "quite" complicated.
Many physical characteristics are right before our noses but I not do enough attention to them until you point them out so clearly.

Since I try to breed "only" unpolluted Silver variants but all these different phaeomelanin pigment genes (not only the sex-linked) are yet still always present will it be possible to deactivate them all ?

I will be possible(but most probably difficult)to deactive them but only if they are not all homozygous for those particular genes. You have to have at least one bird with a different(=red-free)allele(it applies to all those involved red genes).

Yes indeed, just before it was rather simple with only 2 phaeomelanin to count with.
I am very grateful to you all that you take so much patience and time to reveal and explain all this to us.

When we have knowledge on how to distinguish the difference between sex-linked red, autosomale red and salmon red we can act to deactive them in the way you discribe Wieslaw but what about those red-pigment producing genes we do not know, so we can not determine them, how shall we know if they are Dominant/recessive, homozygous/heterozygous to can take action against them ?

Maybe we dramatize a little, maybe these "other" producing red-pigment genes are so exceptional that we hardly ever will encounter them in our private poultries !

It would help to make the columbian homozygous.

Yes indeed BUT I talk about Silkies ! I have had roosters and hens with homozygoos Columbian-like restrictors, the result was nomore black in the hackles (so it's probably Db at work).
For that reason I went for black-pigment intensifier(s) (Ml & cha) which give in my eyes good results for the contrast BUT they are on "eb" so grayish undercolor (which get through in sight) and "eWh" is not an option for "Silvers" !
Probably a vicious circle.

Coming back to your original question: I have observed some hens that might be eb and have something that looks like a wing triangle.

Here is the first video showing the chicks looking like eb to my eyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUS6BE7KKU8

Try to observe closely the following video. You should notice some very dark brown hens(some close to black) and some of them show a very distinct wing triangle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO_jrJgjWMA&feature=related

It is also showing that eb can be present in game fowl, contrary to what I have previously read in some old threads.

PS. For those of you who are fans of ROYAL RUMBLE, something for you :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vk7aQYyXOg&feature=related

It is difficult for me to say anything on fighters, I have zero experience with them.
But I found something particular in an Italian breed :

I doubt this hen is on eb. In my opinion it would not melanize that much in presence of Db, especially on the breast.

When not eb what e-allel would you say ?



And this ones :

The dark ones resemble the german bergische Kräher, color is called "gedoppelt". I think heavy melanized birchen with Db and Ml.

Is indeed a bit forgotten (east) German breed, I not remember the name but I think they where called after a town.