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#103553 - 04/27/12 02:46 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: SilverSilkie]
Henk69 Online   content
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Autosomal red is not chromosome linked to wheaten, but there is always the risk of autosomal red in a cross... wink

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#103555 - 04/27/12 02:57 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: Henk69]
SilverSilkie Online   content
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I read this :

"there are two different forms of pheomelanin; one sex-linked occurring on the z-chromosome called the s-locus and the other autosomal called the Ap-locus (Ap for autosomal pheomelanin as opposed to S for sex-linked pheomelanin)".

and :

e+ - Duckwing, the pattern and melanic distribution of the red junglefowl, i.e., salmon breasted, stippled back hen and black breasted red rooster.

eb - Brown, The male is nearly identical to the e male and the female is similar to the e hen, but with no salmon breast, the breast rather being identical to the back.

eWh - Wheaten, The male is again nearly identical to the e male, and the hen is solid salmon, the entire body like the breast on the e hen.


In this text I should believe that "salmon red" is inextricably related to e+ and eWh birds, no ?

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#103561 - 04/27/12 03:26 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: SilverSilkie]
Henk69 Online   content
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the salmon red is not the same as autosomal red. One dose of columbian completely removes unenhanced salmon red. Autosomal red typically breaks through one dose of columbian.
Autosomal red can enhance the salmon red.
So in a way e+ and wheaten help to express autosomal red.

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#103562 - 04/27/12 03:34 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: Henk69]
SilverSilkie Online   content
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In other words their are not two different forms of pheomelanin (sex-linked and autosomal) but 3 => salmon red !

This becomes a little confusing reading different explanations !
-What exactely is the "salmon red" ?
-Is it the same on e+ (concentrated on hens chest) as on eWh (distributed on hens entire body) ?
-Is it visible on the e+ and eWh roosters when these are based S/S ?

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#103563 - 04/27/12 03:41 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: SilverSilkie]
SilverSilkie Online   content
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From kippenencyclopedie.nl a Silver wheaten rooster :

On his shoulders is this salmone red or autosomale red ?

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#103564 - 04/27/12 03:45 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: SilverSilkie]
Henk69 Online   content
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Backwards
-the autosomal red would be covered by the black parts of the roosters. Maybe it would be able to break through in khaki or splash dilutions.

-Yes, in het wheaten the red is pushed to the edges of the breast and onto the shoulders/wings.

-see explanation below

Genetically there are as many red genes as the numbers of enzymes/proteins (etc) needed to make or handle the red pigment.
A few of these genes are only noted because a mutation knocked them out or put them in overdrive.
There is a mechanism that pheomelanin is automatically produced as eumelanin is blocked, but that is a different topic.

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#103565 - 04/27/12 03:47 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: Henk69]
Henk69 Online   content
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I don't think salmon red is on roosters shoulders.

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#103566 - 04/27/12 04:01 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: Henk69]
SilverSilkie Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Henk69
I don't think salmon red is on roosters shoulders.


When it is not salmon red on this rooster shoulders than it should be sex-linked red or autosomal red or offcourse one of the many red genes as the numbers of enzymes/proteins (etc) needed to make or handle the red pigment, as you explained above.

wink a silver breeder is a "tsjokelair" sick

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#103567 - 04/27/12 04:35 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: SilverSilkie]
Henk69 Online   content
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The synthesis of red pigment should be the same in all types of red features. The reason that the shoulderfeathers of the male become red is because the cells are programmed to do that, probably under influence of the male hormones.

Thinking out loud:

If the sex linked red (silver/gold) protein step is limiting in the male's shoulder cells, the silver male gets white shoulders.

The female chicken needs more groundcolor to hide while brooding.
Higher levels of red expression were favored, etc...

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#103578 - 04/27/12 06:25 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2178
Loc: Australia
SilverSilkie,
you have a great variation in phenotypes, so obviously not talking about homozygous lines. Plus, incompletely dominant mutations are renown for showing variability in expression. So I don't think it means much at all the variability in the amount of phaeomelanin on the wings.

Both eb and e+ have dark undercolour, & if you have het. eumelanin restrictors with silkies, this undercolour is more visible than normal feathered birds (simply due to the hookless feather structure sitting more open, not tight against the body). That's all I was saying.

This is eb/eb hen without eumelanin restrictors:

An old photo of a Partridge Silkie hen I had (no eumelanin restrictors)


A couple of silkies (probably eb based) - het. for eumelanin restrictors (crossing lines):




The following roo going by chick down in his offspring was probably Db, not Co:




Your chicks don't look typical eb Db, but maybe Co in there (more eumelanin in chick down)?

A e+/e+ silkie crossbred pullet I had:


Read PB&G about e+ & eWh salmon pigment in hens. Apparently its a different phaeomelanin pigment compound to the other phaeomelanin pigment in chickens (ie that's one way to tell the difference - chemical tests).

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