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#103580 - 04/27/12 06:32 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 2973
Loc: Netherlands
I can make nothing from that second picture... wink

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#103583 - 04/27/12 06:45 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2182
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Henk69
I can make nothing from that second picture... wink


My couple of decades old photo of a Partridge Silkie hen? All I have of her wink
She has no eumelanin restriction from side view, & no visible salmon breast.

Either that or nothing smile .

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#103585 - 04/27/12 07:14 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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Posts: 2973
Loc: Netherlands
That is officially the most fuzzy picture ever posted laugh
What is that in front of her, a poppy?

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#103587 - 04/27/12 07:39 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2182
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Henk69
That is officially the most fuzzy picture ever posted laugh
What is that in front of her, a poppy?


Think it could be your eyesight & not my teenage photography skills wink
laugh laugh
And I could be underestimating a bit on how many decades ago?

Was thinking maybe daffodils or jonquils in the rose garden (& a bit of cardboard stuck on the photo?). Kind of a mystery isn't it.

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#103589 - 04/27/12 08:15 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: SilverSilkie]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
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Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
In other words their are not two different forms of pheomelanin (sex-linked and autosomal) but 3 => salmon red !

This becomes a little confusing reading different explanations !
-What exactely is the "salmon red" ?
-Is it the same on e+ (concentrated on hens chest) as on eWh (distributed on hens entire body) ?
-Is it visible on the e+ and eWh roosters when these are based S/S ?


Salmon red breast is visible both on s+/s+ and S/S roosters if they are e+/e+ Hf/Hf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-3urKFP_7I


Here are videos with henny wheatens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXDOBDut1eI


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEp4efBJydM&feature=related


Edited by Wieslaw (04/27/12 09:56 AM)

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#103596 - 04/27/12 10:17 PM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2182
Loc: Australia
From PB&G, page 116:

Quote:
Another interesting sex difference associated with the E alleles is the two apparently different pheomelanins. One is the typical red pigment of the wild-type male plumage, while the other is the brownish-salmon pigment of the e+/e+ breast feathers (Brumbaugh and Moore, 1969) and the wheaten female body feathers (Malone and Smyth, 1979). Smyth et al. (1951) reported previously that wild-type male and female pheomelanins differed in trichochrome content with the salmon-colored feathers containing only small quantities.

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#103599 - 04/27/12 11:51 PM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: KazJaps]
SilverSilkie Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1026
Loc: Belgium
Thank you all for the information. All becomes more clear in the theory. The problem stay the practice. As little breeder I not have a little labo-test room. I (and many others with me) must do it on visual in our poultry. Seems to be a fact that many written information contradict each other or at least can be called confusing, as Henk commented on the photo of the Silver wheaten rooster "I don't think salmon red is on roosters shoulders" and he probably is right.

Maybe after completely understanding this page http://kippenjungle.nl/chickengenetics/theory.html I will be able to combine both.


Edited by SilverSilkie (04/28/12 12:09 AM)

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#103601 - 04/28/12 12:19 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 2973
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
From PB&G, page 116:

Quote:
Another interesting sex difference associated with the E alleles is the two apparently different pheomelanins. One is the typical red pigment of the wild-type male plumage, while the other is the brownish-salmon pigment of the e+/e+ breast feathers (Brumbaugh and Moore, 1969) and the wheaten female body feathers (Malone and Smyth, 1979). Smyth et al. (1951) reported previously that wild-type male and female pheomelanins differed in trichochrome content with the salmon-colored feathers containing only small quantities.


Interesting. So I guess the synthesis pathways are not 100% identical...

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#103606 - 04/28/12 01:45 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: SilverSilkie]
KazJaps Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2182
Loc: Australia
What I quoted from PB&G just means is that the female salmon pigment in e+ & wheaten hens is a different phaeomelanin pigment as found in males (& probably different to female neck phaeomelanin pigment too). So with this information, there is no reason to jump to the assumption that red wing bow pigment in that particular rooster is the same as female salmon pigment?

Some Silver Wheaten lines have an extra phaeomelanin intensifier (eg as in Salmon Faverolles, etc). This is not eWh/eWh S/S or S/-, rest wild-type as other Silver Wheaten lines have clean silver roosters & medium salmon shades in hens.

There are multiple threads here at The Coop that mention that various red intensifying mutations seem to be able to cause red leakage on S - silver based birds. S is a leaky gene. This red leakage can occur on eb based birds too (where hens don't naturally have salmon pigment). So the salmon pigment compound as found in e+ & wheaten hens is a different issue.

It's more to do with the sexually dichromatic phenotypes in chickens: the placement, intensity & type of phaeomelanin with each gender, and what effect each mutation(s) (& combinations) have on these wild-type male/female phenotypes. There are many, many genes that go into the make up of these wild-type male/female plumage colour/pattern phenotypes.

P.s. - there is often no direct correlation with sex chromosome Z genes to the main differences in sexually dichromatic male/female plumage colour phenotypes, and autosomal genes also influence this as Wieslaw has indicated with Hf (an autosomal mutation that switches on aromatase in males). The homologs of chicken sex-linked s+ gene (SLC45A2 or MATP) are found on autosomal chromosomes in mice and humans (ie chicken S locus equivalent in humans & mice are autosomal in the latter two, not sex-linked). So it is quite complicated.

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#103607 - 04/28/12 02:49 AM Re: Wingtriangle or not on eb-hens ! [Re: KazJaps]
SilverSilkie Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1026
Loc: Belgium
Ok, this all makes sence but is indeed "quite" complicated.
Many physical characteristics are right before our noses but I not do enough attention to them until you point them out so clearly.

Since I try to breed "only" unpolluted Silver variants but all these different phaeomelanin pigment genes (not only the sex-linked) are yet still always present will it be possible to deactivate them all ?

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