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#103600 - 04/28/12 12:09 AM Early death and DIS in Serama
GSC Offline
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Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 752
Loc: United Kingdom
Does anyone have any insight on this subject?

Sigi, I saw a post of your a couple of years old saying you were going to autopsy some DIS to look at the leg length? Did you ever do it?
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#103602 - 04/28/12 12:30 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: GSC]
Henk69 Offline
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 2982
Loc: Netherlands
Dead in sleep?

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#103605 - 04/28/12 01:15 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: Henk69]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1026
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By: Henk69
Dead in sleep?


Who ? Sigi ? cry

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#103618 - 04/29/12 01:08 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: SilverSilkie]
Henk69 Offline
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Registered: 02/13/06
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Loc: Netherlands
No, she is covering the barnevelder battle these days (tuinvee.nl) wink

Death in shell?

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#103624 - 04/29/12 02:29 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: Henk69]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1026
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By: Henk69
No, she is covering the barnevelder battle these days (tuinvee.nl) wink


Fascinating crazy

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#103625 - 04/29/12 06:30 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: Henk69]
GSC Offline
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Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 752
Loc: United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Henk69
Death in shell?

You don't use this expression?

Dead-in-Shell - This is the most common problem among incubation complications. Death in the shell results when a chick starts to breathe but dies before it can escape from the egg. The chick doesn't have to pip the shell to start breathing, it will begin to breathe air in the air sac. Death in the shell can be caused by several things such as wrong temperature, wrong humidity, wrong turning, and of course infectious disease.

Many slightly different meanings but I think most people use it to describe a chick that was alive at day 18 but fails to hatch (or pip).
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I'm 61 and have 6 dogs, one cat and 5 grandkids plus an au pair

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#103626 - 04/29/12 07:10 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: GSC]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3388
Loc: Denmark
Death in shell can also be caused by several genetic factors,not only environmental causes.
(including many semi-lethals, if I remember correctly also naked necks, ear tuft, and so on)

Check also these:

http://www.pjbs.org/ijps/fin1588.pdf
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/126/4_Suppl/1303S.full.pdf

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#103627 - 04/29/12 07:32 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: Wieslaw]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1026
Loc: Belgium
I agree as also the vault on male Silkie chicks, until last year in my breedings !

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#103629 - 04/29/12 08:01 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: SilverSilkie]
KazJaps Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2189
Loc: Australia
Creeper gene.
Depends, as there was great variation in all the research results noted in PB&G with creeper studies. Some homozygotes died in early development stages, others closer to hatch.

I never witnessed a homozygous creeper DIS in my Japs (ie chick with obvious extreme limb deformity). Maybe these died very early on with mine?


Edited by KazJaps (04/29/12 08:08 AM)

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#103631 - 04/29/12 08:52 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: KazJaps]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1026
Loc: Belgium
I intended death just before hatching (chick completely formed). This happened for 2 years with about 50% of the fertilized eggs. When I opened the eggs I always saw a vault and I was convinced it were hens. Until this year I saw my first 3 male chicks with a vault and I readed a little article (if I remember well it was of Sigi) describing the being lethal of a vault on male Silkies.

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#103654 - 04/30/12 03:39 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: SilverSilkie]
Jocelyn Offline
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Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1467
Loc: Canada
I think also that there is something genetic going on with the seramas. I had 5 birds from eggs in the mail, so this is very small numbers to draw conclusions from. There were three hens, and the hatch rate from their eggs was a little over 50 percent, most dead just before hatch. I did try to get eggs in the mail for several years for an outcross, but when this didn't happen, I bred a hen to a rapa nuis and another to a quetro. These were the smallest large fowls I had. The interesting thing was that the hatch rate went up to 90 percent or so, from the same hens. I spent several years mating sons to mothers or aunts and daughters to fathers or uncles, and am now at the 15/16th stage or BC3. The hatch rate is still good, but occassionally I get a bird whose eggs hatch poorly. Most individuals still have the 90 percent or so hatch rate. To me, this says something genetic held down the hatch rate in the original stocks. I got eggs in the mail this spring, so it will be interesting the see what the hatch rate is when I go to use that chick.(there is only 1). The original hens are from 2005, so showing their age some, but still healthy and strong. It would be nice if the chick I got from the mailed eggs is male, as I would love to try a male with these hens and see what he carries. Since he's 6 days old, it's a day dream right now, grin.

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#103655 - 04/30/12 06:41 AM Re: Early death and DIS in Serama [Re: Jocelyn]
GSC Offline
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Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 752
Loc: United Kingdom
It is a very interesting subject. I do wonder if it isn't to do with what I call 'the unseemly haste' to bring down the size. I feel any species where we try to make changes involving basic structure in very few generations is likely to encounter problems.

When we have the situation where the tiniest birds are bred to show but it is common knowledge that we can't breed from birds that size I have to question what we are doing.
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