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#103811 - 05/21/12 03:54 AM Re: Historical question [Re: SilverSilkie]
Wieslaw Offline
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3831
Loc: Denmark
I hope the owner of this 'Archaeopteryx' will keep it and propagate it. Maybe it will get teeth with time.

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#103812 - 05/21/12 03:54 AM Re: Historical question [Re: SilverSilkie]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3228
Loc: Netherlands
The consensus is that Archaeopteryx is not a direct ancestor of modern birds, but a side branch.
I would welcome a discussion about evolution/creationism, but they always get unpleasant, and I do not own this board.
So I will close this topic if that happens... wink
Of course Wieslaw's question is not the problem and will keep an open thread.

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#103813 - 05/21/12 09:30 AM Re: Historical question [Re: SilverSilkie]
CJR Offline
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8501
Loc: Montana
Recent DISCOVERY magazine had an article that some new evidence indicates that some "dinosaurs" were indeed warm blooded. There are things, seen and not ever seen, that we KNOW (to date). We live and we can still learn if we want to......you takes your choice...CJR

Sorry, your last post was not up when I sent this one---take it away, if you want to--I agree, the thread can never have closure......


Edited by CJR (05/21/12 09:32 AM)

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#107542 - 12/29/12 10:49 AM Re: Historical question [Re: CJR]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3831
Loc: Denmark
Next historical question. According to some written American sources, the first Cochin chickens imported to US had no leg feathering or a very sparse one. Where did they get their abundant leg feathers from then? What about the English ones?

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#107544 - 12/29/12 12:18 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
jonnydot Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 298
Loc: australia
Not conclusive as yet but getting there RE:- Warm blooded.... http://dinosaurs.wikia.com/wiki/Troodon

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#107546 - 12/29/12 12:33 PM Re: Historical question [Re: jonnydot]
jonnydot Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 298
Loc: australia

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#107548 - 12/29/12 02:38 PM Re: Historical question [Re: jonnydot]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3831
Loc: Denmark
Hi Jonny, yes I have seen those sites, but there is no answer to my question there. According to the pictures of the birds presented to Queen Victoria, their legs were featherless. And American sources also mention featherless legs. So where did all those feathers come from? There was second/later importation of birds from Shanghai later, but I cannot find a reliable description, what did the birds look like.

What I really want to know is, whether there was a deliberate outcross to e.g. Brahma or something at some point ? Any mention of that?

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#107551 - 12/30/12 12:18 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
987654321 Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 36
Loc: Australia
I have read that both Brahamas and Cochins/Shanghis were given to Queen Victoria in 1852, so I'm confused as to which breed she actually got or did she indeed receive both breeds? The picture really does not resemble either, more Malay looking to me than anything. I remember reading that the Shanghis were crossed with a Malay type and imported into the US in the 1840's and then onto the UK to Queen Victoria in the 1850's. I've also read several times that they were infact Shanghis and that they were wrongly named as Cochins but the name stuck. This seems to be backed up by the book called "The Asiatics" Publish by the Reliable Poultry Journal Publishing Company which I managed to track down here http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/115444#page/9/mode/1up

My earliest Poultry Standards book that I have from 1877 has them with feathered legs, no pictures unfortunatley :(, but the 1910 American Standards of Perfection does.

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#107552 - 12/30/12 12:39 AM Re: Historical question [Re: 987654321]
987654321 Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/15/12
Posts: 36
Loc: Australia
Upon reading another one of my books called Races of Domestic Poultry by Edward Brown F.L.S., dated 1906, to me it seems there were two different types of fowl bought in, it reports "The first birds seen in England were purchased from a ship in the West Indies Docks in 1845, and they were distinctly different from anything known at that time, they became popular. We have never been able to trace that birds of that type are common even in the Shanghi district. It would appear that the earliest Cochins were largely buff in plumage, although by no means even in colour, as is now the case, many of them being much darker." It goes on to say "The first recorded importation, as already stated, took place in 1845, though it is said that about two or three years before specimens of the breed had been seen by officers of both the British Army and Navy in China". Could it just be a historical boo boo and the Malay like birds were infact not the ones given to Queen Victoria?

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#107553 - 12/30/12 04:35 AM Re: Historical question [Re: 987654321]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Brian Reeder's website on Asiatics (using archives - wayback machine):
Asiatics - contents page

Unfortunately the Cochin, Brahma, Langshan links are not working, but the Historical Asiatics Articles link is working, where some old descriptions are given on the Asiatics.

Basically, the Asiatic imports were a mixed bunch, with both clean legged & feather-legged seen. Exhibition breeders selected for full feathered & feather legged traits, not utility traits.

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