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#112488 - 03/23/14 04:48 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Theropod]
Redcap Online   content
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#112489 - 03/23/14 05:28 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Theropod Offline
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I can access them through interlibrary loan. Some I have seen before. I find it difficult to believe the dissertation (last) allowed enough time to work out genetics through experimental crosses.

I have not been able to find comparable concerning American Dominiques.

The thyroid business is interesting as a school-mate was exploring the role of the thyroid hormones (T3 and T4) on barring in clown fish. Exposure occurred during larval development analogous to embryonic development in birds. Impacts on barring seemed to be the result of meristic (vertebrate number) changes and relative tissue maturation rates.

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#112490 - 03/24/14 01:20 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Theropod]
Redcap Online   content
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The first study in Poultry Science compares feather, body growth and performance of a offspring of a show strain which was selected either after performance only or for exhibition traits only. The result was that the exhibition strain lost performance.
This study raises up also the need of breeding in cock breeder strain and pullet breeder strains to improve phenotype and (probably) performance.

Originally Posted By: Redcap
May I hijack the thread for an other question?
Could it be, that the historical Dominique chicken were B & Pg based?
The Schilling birds, dated to 1915, show a kind of "concentric barring".
http://www.huehner-info.de/forum/showthr...l=1#post1064281
Quote:
On the other hand, any who have had the pleasure of seeing good specimens can appreciate the erratic pattern of the Dominique’s barring. One particular trait that is lost in many of the modern strains is the "eye" that is to be seen at the end of each feather. The shape of the bars and the rounded end of the feather causes this. One could almost call the final bar – "lacing". If you are unsure of this pattern, look closely at A.O. Schilling’s artwork in the black and white Standard of Perfection.

http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Why_American_Dominiques.html


How can the described "eye" be understood genetically?
As mooney, like in Pheasant Fowl or Redcaps?
https://archive.org/stream/poultrybookcomp00tegegoog#page/n218/mode/2up
See Fig. 2 & 8
This leads me again to the question, are they based on the Hamburg family (Hamburgs, OEPF or Redcaps)?
Mooney and rose combed ancestors seems to be obviously.
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#112491 - 03/24/14 02:27 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Htul Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Thanks a lot guys. ey was also introduced by Morejohn. While we are at the subject, what about eWh?(So that we have them all here)


KImball (1960) Genetics of wheaten plumage in the fowl Poultry Science 39 (3): 768-774.

However, he fails to recognise this as an allele in the E series

The very difficult to obtain: Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. E Hollander. "A further study of the E pattern
locus in the fowl." Iowa State Journal of Science. 40 (1965): 51-64

however, tests this directly to demonstrate that eWh is indeed an allele at the E locus.

Maybe worth a short sticky to describe each of the E locus alleles and who the first was to describe each of them (and associated reference)?

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#112492 - 03/24/14 02:02 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Htul]
Wieslaw Offline
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Henk is the Master of the stickies.

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#112493 - 03/24/14 04:19 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Online   content
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Regarding the Dominiques ancestors or genetic:

I just found right now, that it was postulated, that Hamburgs or rose combed Leghorn were ancestors of the Dominique.
In the 18th century they were rather called Pheasants and were of great heterogeneity in the plumage pattern (see Feather pattern of the Hamburg Family in the Poultry Book)
http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Origin_of_the_Dominiques.html
So I would suppose that the Pheasant Fowl (today they have breast lacing, Redcaps have not) of that Time were the ancestors.
The different local strains of Pheasant Fowls and Lancashire Mooneys (hen-feathered) were unified as Hamburgs in the 19th century, only the the Yorkshire Pheasants left over as Old English Pheasant Fowl and the Derbyshire Redcaps as distinct breed to the Hamburgs.
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924003073248#page/n537/mode/2up
But there were also so called Dominique Leghorn, so maybe that's the way they come up
https://archive.org/stream/questofleghornbo00ayre#page/30/mode/2up/search/dominique
In the middle of 19th century they were described as Hawk coloured, blue speckled, dung hill fowl, commonly called Dominiques or Dominicas.
http://books.google.de/books?id=qlk2AQAA...que&f=false
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924003159427#page/n35/mode/2up/search/dominique
http://books.google.de/books?id=4aY9AAAA...que&f=false
http://books.google.de/books?id=LKPbAAAA...led&f=false
http://books.google.de/books?id=TjZOAAAA...ill&f=false
So in the meanwhile, I realized it isn't easy to trace back the ancestor in detail, but there is still the question.
Could it be that the Dominiques were spangled-barred to Schillings time??
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#112494 - 03/24/14 05:35 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Theropod Offline
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Registered: 12/23/13
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Loc: Missouri, USA
My gut feeling is the American Dominique started off as a composite of many different backgrounds and owing to location and timing, American / Old English Games were part of that hence the use of dunghill. Other breeds like Scots Grey may also be involved. The sex-linked barring could have been derived from a variety of lines. To get a real handle, genetic analysis would need to be run on tissue / feather samples from American Dominiques at the time of the breeds recognition. The breed after that very likely suffered infusion of other breeds just as the Barred Plymouth Rock supposedly did following the split of the two.

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#112495 - 03/24/14 09:48 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Theropod]
KazJaps Offline
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To me, the Schilling Dominique images actually show alot of feathers with white tips. As I don't think this is due to mottling mo gene, I also don't think feathers ending in a narrow band of eumelanin is indicative of Pg.

Cote's findings through test breeding:

Exhibition Barred Plymouth Rock: E/E Ml-Pg/ml+-pg+ Co/co+ Id w/w

This doesn't suggests that Pg has an effect on barring edge phenotype in Dominique, Barred Plymouth Rock, etc.

There usually needs to be phaeomelanin for Pg to express on feather pattern (eg non E or ER Co based, Db based, etc, female non E or ER or eWh, concentric pencilling etc).

Pg is usually hypostatic on E or ER based solid eumelanin varieties, & also in Smyth's eb solid black line (had Pg-Ml too). Smyth actually lists Pg as a partial eumelaniser, in his 1976 Melanin paper.

Except in the presence of Bl, laced blue - Pg-Ml. And my experience with B Bl/bl+ Pg-Ml is that with males, the top dark blue areas (wing bows, neck hackles, etc) are cleanly barred (dark blue & white -even spacing) but the body is predominantly laced blue, dark blue/black edge with faint blue barring centres (not clean white bars, mostly dark blue & light grey-white bars).

So I can't see Pg giving a thin pigmented bar tip, then large white bar in solid eumelanin based Dominiques, Barred Rocks, Cuckoo etc phenotypes. It's that large white band that's not indicative of Pg (Pg being a eumelaniser).

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#112497 - 03/25/14 12:12 AM Re: Historical question [Re: KazJaps]
Theropod Offline
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Registered: 12/23/13
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Loc: Missouri, USA
KazJaps, I am trying to follow you with respect to Pg. Is it not possible that Pg could re-enforce barring promoted by the sex-linked barring gene? Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin as I understand it use the some of the same pathways in their production.


Edited by Theropod (03/25/14 12:12 AM)

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#112498 - 03/25/14 02:14 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Theropod]
Redcap Online   content
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That are mooney feathers. I just thought that spangling could be the reason for the extensive white bands, as in Wybars the lacing.
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