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#103787 - 05/19/12 03:11 AM Historical question
Wieslaw Offline
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Does anybody have a clue, when and where the first mention of sex-linked barring(B) took place? I mean the look of the birds, and not necessarily how it works. How old is it actually? Any old pictures/paintings? Where to look? Redcap?

Thanks in advance.

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#103790 - 05/19/12 01:43 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
SilverSilkie Offline
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I suppose those that know it are already dead !!

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#103794 - 05/20/12 12:46 AM Re: Historical question [Re: SilverSilkie]
Henk69 Offline
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Archaeopteryx already had it:


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#103795 - 05/20/12 01:03 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Henk69]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Was probably a heavy Saterdaynight to make this combination ;-)

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#103797 - 05/20/12 01:32 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Henk69
Archaeopteryx already had it:



LOL. A really, really good one. Have you hatched an Archaeopteryx??? While we are at Archaeopteryx, what is the consensus now? I read several times , that it was a hoax.


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#103802 - 05/20/12 10:20 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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No, that is claimed by creationists, etc...

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#103804 - 05/20/12 12:38 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Henk69]
Bushman Offline
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It is an extinct species, just like thousands of others. Can someone explain how cold blooded reptiles can somehow metamorphise into warm blooded birds?
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#103805 - 05/20/12 01:32 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Bushman]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Nature works in mysterious ways, mostly very slowly over 1000s and 1000s of years, but always find a way.

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#103806 - 05/20/12 06:45 PM Re: Historical question [Re: SilverSilkie]
Bushman Offline
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Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
Nature works in mysterious ways, mostly very slowly over 1000s and 1000s of years, but always find a way.


Everyone has a certain faith in something I guess. I choose mine based on eyewitness historical accounts.
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#103808 - 05/21/12 12:12 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Bushman]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bushman
Originally Posted By: SilverSilkie
Nature works in mysterious ways, mostly very slowly over 1000s and 1000s of years, but always find a way.


Everyone has a certain faith in something I guess. I choose mine based on eyewitness historical accounts.


Sure, just there were at that time not yet historical eyewitness !

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#103811 - 05/21/12 03:54 AM Re: Historical question [Re: SilverSilkie]
Wieslaw Offline
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I hope the owner of this 'Archaeopteryx' will keep it and propagate it. Maybe it will get teeth with time.

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#103812 - 05/21/12 03:54 AM Re: Historical question [Re: SilverSilkie]
Henk69 Offline
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The consensus is that Archaeopteryx is not a direct ancestor of modern birds, but a side branch.
I would welcome a discussion about evolution/creationism, but they always get unpleasant, and I do not own this board.
So I will close this topic if that happens... wink
Of course Wieslaw's question is not the problem and will keep an open thread.

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#103813 - 05/21/12 09:30 AM Re: Historical question [Re: SilverSilkie]
CJR Offline
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Recent DISCOVERY magazine had an article that some new evidence indicates that some "dinosaurs" were indeed warm blooded. There are things, seen and not ever seen, that we KNOW (to date). We live and we can still learn if we want to......you takes your choice...CJR

Sorry, your last post was not up when I sent this one---take it away, if you want to--I agree, the thread can never have closure......


Edited by CJR (05/21/12 09:32 AM)

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#107542 - 12/29/12 10:49 AM Re: Historical question [Re: CJR]
Wieslaw Offline
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Next historical question. According to some written American sources, the first Cochin chickens imported to US had no leg feathering or a very sparse one. Where did they get their abundant leg feathers from then? What about the English ones?

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#107544 - 12/29/12 12:18 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
jonnydot Offline
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Not conclusive as yet but getting there RE:- Warm blooded.... http://dinosaurs.wikia.com/wiki/Troodon

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#107546 - 12/29/12 12:33 PM Re: Historical question [Re: jonnydot]
jonnydot Offline
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#107548 - 12/29/12 02:38 PM Re: Historical question [Re: jonnydot]
Wieslaw Offline
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Hi Jonny, yes I have seen those sites, but there is no answer to my question there. According to the pictures of the birds presented to Queen Victoria, their legs were featherless. And American sources also mention featherless legs. So where did all those feathers come from? There was second/later importation of birds from Shanghai later, but I cannot find a reliable description, what did the birds look like.

What I really want to know is, whether there was a deliberate outcross to e.g. Brahma or something at some point ? Any mention of that?

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#107551 - 12/30/12 12:18 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
987654321 Offline
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I have read that both Brahamas and Cochins/Shanghis were given to Queen Victoria in 1852, so I'm confused as to which breed she actually got or did she indeed receive both breeds? The picture really does not resemble either, more Malay looking to me than anything. I remember reading that the Shanghis were crossed with a Malay type and imported into the US in the 1840's and then onto the UK to Queen Victoria in the 1850's. I've also read several times that they were infact Shanghis and that they were wrongly named as Cochins but the name stuck. This seems to be backed up by the book called "The Asiatics" Publish by the Reliable Poultry Journal Publishing Company which I managed to track down here http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/115444#page/9/mode/1up

My earliest Poultry Standards book that I have from 1877 has them with feathered legs, no pictures unfortunatley :(, but the 1910 American Standards of Perfection does.

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#107552 - 12/30/12 12:39 AM Re: Historical question [Re: 987654321]
987654321 Offline
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Upon reading another one of my books called Races of Domestic Poultry by Edward Brown F.L.S., dated 1906, to me it seems there were two different types of fowl bought in, it reports "The first birds seen in England were purchased from a ship in the West Indies Docks in 1845, and they were distinctly different from anything known at that time, they became popular. We have never been able to trace that birds of that type are common even in the Shanghi district. It would appear that the earliest Cochins were largely buff in plumage, although by no means even in colour, as is now the case, many of them being much darker." It goes on to say "The first recorded importation, as already stated, took place in 1845, though it is said that about two or three years before specimens of the breed had been seen by officers of both the British Army and Navy in China". Could it just be a historical boo boo and the Malay like birds were infact not the ones given to Queen Victoria?

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#107553 - 12/30/12 04:35 AM Re: Historical question [Re: 987654321]
KazJaps Offline
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Brian Reeder's website on Asiatics (using archives - wayback machine):
Asiatics - contents page

Unfortunately the Cochin, Brahma, Langshan links are not working, but the Historical Asiatics Articles link is working, where some old descriptions are given on the Asiatics.

Basically, the Asiatic imports were a mixed bunch, with both clean legged & feather-legged seen. Exhibition breeders selected for full feathered & feather legged traits, not utility traits.

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#107560 - 12/30/12 10:21 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Mike_H Offline
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Dominiques have sex linked barring and are recognized as America’s first chicken breed. In a discussion about the history of Dominiques the American livestock breeds conservancy says that such barred chickens where were somewhat common in the eastern United States as early as 1750. I don't know about European or Asian stocks.

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#107566 - 12/31/12 05:59 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Mike_H]
Henk69 Offline
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You are looking for the origin of the barring?

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#107572 - 12/31/12 07:00 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Hi Henk, it was I who was looking for the earliest mention of the barring. Thanks Mike H!!

Thanks guys for the information about the cochins and their leg feathering. I've made a blunder on the Polish forum by claiming, that they got if from Brahmas, now I will be forced to rectify it.

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#107586 - 12/31/12 07:00 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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Hopefully the DNA testing of B will continue, maybe help with tracing the origins of barred breeds, eg as quoted previously:

The B1 allele was found in breeds /lines like:
-Barred Plymouth Rock,
-broiler lines,
-Coucou de Rennes,
-Coucou du Vercors.

The B2 allele was found in breeds / lines like:
-White Leghorn, commercial
-White Leghorn, line 13
-White Leghorn, Obese strain
-Järhöns

The trouble is that some of these old European breeds (Coucou de Rennes, Coucou du Vercors, Malines, Scots Grey, etc) may have had some Barred Plymouth Rock blood infused into some lines at later stages (when numbers dwindled), eg especially with the Marans. So it is hard to know which came first. It would be interesting to see what B allele Crele OEG have.

I've also read that some earlier d'Anvers were quoted as being coucou (cuckoo), black, & golden (later perfected as Quails) (British published Belgian Bantams book, by Veronica Mayhew, 1999). d'Anver type bantams in Belgium/Netherlands had been known from the early 17th century, & imports of bantams from Malaya Isles & Sundra were known to occur in the later 17th century. So I don't know if the cuckoo came later from S.E. Asia, or were already in Europe.

--------------------------
In PB&G (p 45) there is mention that feather-legged chickens were known by Aldrovandi (by about 1600 A.D).


Edited by KazJaps (12/31/12 07:21 PM)
Edit Reason: added "Netherlands"

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#107696 - 01/09/13 06:57 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
987654321 Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Next historical question. According to some written American sources, the first Cochin chickens imported to US had no leg feathering or a very sparse one. Where did they get their abundant leg feathers from then? What about the English ones?


I have just purchased a book that may help with an accurate description, written in 1855, The History of The Hen Fever by Geo. P. Burnham. One man's personal account of "this extraordinary mania" from his first experience of it in 1849. Chapter 2 is titled "The Cochin-Chinas...Bubble Number One" Chapter 14 is titled "Bother'em Pootrums" (Brahams)...Bubble Number Two" Chapter 20 "Present To Queen Victoria". It lists having numerous drawings so hopefully something accurate might be in there for you?

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#107714 - 01/12/13 05:25 PM Re: Historical question [Re: 987654321]
Wieslaw Offline
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987654321, thank you for the information about the book. I will see if it is possible for me to get it.

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#107722 - 01/13/13 01:47 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Next question. I recall an old thread with a link to an external source on history of Laced Wyandottes. I cannot find it. I remember vaguely, that the text said something like that' Sebrights were used in the developement', but I recall it was mentioned as if it was LARGE FOWL! Does it ring any bell with somebody? Or have I mixed everything up?

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#107748 - 01/14/13 02:03 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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Wasn't that a piece from absent friend Sigi about single laced cochins?

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#107764 - 01/14/13 01:17 PM Re: Historical question [Re: 987654321]
Redcap Offline
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Originally Posted By: 987654321
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Next historical question. According to some written American sources, the first Cochin chickens imported to US had no leg feathering or a very sparse one. Where did they get their abundant leg feathers from then? What about the English ones?


I have just purchased a book that may help with an accurate description, written in 1855, The History of The Hen Fever by Geo. P. Burnham. One man's personal account of "this extraordinary mania" from his first experience of it in 1849. Chapter 2 is titled "The Cochin-Chinas...Bubble Number One" Chapter 14 is titled "Bother'em Pootrums" (Brahams)...Bubble Number Two" Chapter 20 "Present To Queen Victoria". It lists having numerous drawings so hopefully something accurate might be in there for you?


That's for free

http://archive.org/details/cu31924002972424
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#108868 - 03/11/13 11:20 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Wieslaw Offline
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Next question. I'm playing a detective at the moment. I have found an old Polish magazine from 1886, which mentions a chicken breed called "Wancenau". Has anybody ever heard about such a breed? Or is it a distortion of a similar word? The name looks like something from West Europe (Holland? Belgium? Germany?)

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#108869 - 03/11/13 11:29 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
SilverSilkie Offline
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No Flemish bell for this ... but :
http://tellspell.com/german/wanzenau/221116/

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#108870 - 03/11/13 11:34 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Next question. I recall an old thread with a link to an external source on history of Laced Wyandottes. I cannot find it. I remember vaguely, that the text said something like that' Sebrights were used in the developement', but I recall it was mentioned as if it was LARGE FOWL! Does it ring any bell with somebody? Or have I mixed everything up?


No Wyandotte but a Laced Cochin => build via Sebright (laced tail = ER ;-)

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#108871 - 03/11/13 12:55 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Have you tried any of the other older poultry books yet?

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#108889 - 03/12/13 12:52 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Smooth Mule]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Smooth Mule
Have you tried any of the other older poultry books yet?


Yes, but I liked the ones linked by Kazjaps in the sticky thread the best.

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#108893 - 03/12/13 10:42 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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From what I have been reading, the precursor names to Wyandotte were "Sebright Cochin", then "American Sebright", plus others. The first variety of Wyandotte was Silver Laced phenotype.
archive.org search list on Wyandotte Chicken books
So if you read 'silver Sebright' in these old books, it might not be referring to the Silver Sebright bantam breed specifically, but to silver American Sebright - Wyandotte

And there is alot of uncertainty to the origins of Wyandottes/ American Sebrights. It seems accurate answers to the original breed make-up has been lost.

The following book is quite good at referring to direct quotes from breeders at the time.
The Wyandotte standard and breed book; a complete description of all varieties of Wyandottes, with the text in full from the latest (1915) rev. ed. of the American standard of perfection
http://archive.org/details/cu31924003096413

Some other books quote that John Ray crossed a Sebright Bantam rooster with yellow Chittagong, but in the above book Ray denies this completely. He had obtained Sebright Cochins elsewhere - & would refer to them at times as silver Sebrights (no relationship to the Sebright Bantam breed).

There were other similar rumours of Sebright Bantam rooster x white cochin or buff, in the make-up of "Sebright Cochin" but not substantiated from any particular breeder that this is what they did.

Also rumours of Silver Spangled Hamburg x Dark Brahma, plus research indicating that of the era Silver Laced Hamburg/Moonies existed.

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#108898 - 03/13/13 07:03 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Next question. I'm playing a detective at the moment. I have found an old Polish magazine from 1886, which mentions a chicken breed called "Wancenau". Has anybody ever heard about such a breed? Or is it a distortion of a similar word? The name looks like something from West Europe (Holland? Belgium? Germany?)

The Poule de la Wantzenau derived from d'Alsace, France and was a crossing of Houdans, Faverolles and Sundheimer and were raised mainly as poussins and were called « Wantzenauermischtkràtzerle »
That's a pet name and describes the minimization of a chick that scratches on the dung hill « Mis(ch)tkràtzerle »
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#108899 - 03/14/13 09:10 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Wieslaw Offline
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Thanks to all. You are a real treasure chest(of knowledge)

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#109004 - 03/23/13 07:03 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Here is a piece of text from the poultry book on Brown Leghorns:



It is borrowed from here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924001090202#page/n39/mode/2up

The question is about the sentence on the brown breasts of the cocks. Translated to "present day English" , how the word "brown" should be understood(genetically)? Any ideas?

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#109032 - 03/25/13 04:05 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Some names to decipher. I have found a text in Polish from 1862.I'm convinced the names came from abroad.
The names may be synonyms with something else. Approximate translations(I have problems with building adjectives from nouns in English):
Ganges
Bengals
Jerusalem
Caylonklut
English Crested Hens
Malabars(as the dish; or confused with the dish?probably something from India)
Normandian Crested
Russian

I have deciphered Hamburg (Crested) here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924001090202#page/n145/mode/2up

Normandian Crested may be Le Merlerault (or Caumont?)

http://volaillepoultry.chez.com/franc2.html

because it is from Normandy and it is crested , but is it THAT old?



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#109036 - 03/25/13 07:25 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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I have deciphered Normandian Crested. There was a reference to Houdans(although as far as I know, the city of Houdan is not in Normandy???)

Russian Fowl is described here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924001090202#page/n151/mode/2up

looked like Dorking with beard. Any other names for it?

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#109403 - 04/21/13 05:09 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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I need some help for my memory. I recall reading long time ago(I think it may have been on this forum) about occurances of blue eggs in the past, suddenly out of nowwhere, it was either somewhere in Europe or Asia. I recall that the birds may have been punished with death for this. Anybody recall such thing ?(where and when it happened? And the source?).I can't explain why, but somehow I connect Iran with it(but I may be totally wrong).

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#109406 - 04/21/13 08:43 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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It sounds typical for Iran, but I don't know.

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#110815 - 10/19/13 02:51 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Henk69]
Wieslaw Offline
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Does anybody have an idea, how old is the laughing crow mutation (Ayam Ketawa)? Are we talking thousands of years, hundreds of years or just recent (like from last or next to last century?). Is Ayam Ketawa the only "breed" to do laughing crow?

Is any change in structure of the crowing organs involved?


To native English speakers: Is the first letter a in Brahma pronounced as a long vowel or short?

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#110818 - 10/19/13 04:24 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
jonnydot Offline
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#110819 - 10/19/13 04:30 AM Re: Historical question [Re: jonnydot]
jonnydot Offline
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per your first question I think there is reference to it here ? .... http://plumage.forum-actif.net/t2900p40-pre-columbian-araucana-new-finding not sure on syrinx morph but this may assist http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jstor.org%2Fstable%2F1366856&ei=iGxiUrbNL4fpiAeX14HwBA&usg=AFQjCNH-xjLiRN1JJtps0xv4tkDBU7GZeg&sig2=0L9yuZekFSg1MehnuA6KWw&bvm=bv.54934254,d.aGc

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#110820 - 10/19/13 04:56 AM Re: Historical question [Re: jonnydot]
Wieslaw Offline
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Thanks, but it did not help. It tells me nothing. It's English for English. I want to know if it is pronounced bra:ma or brama (in international transcription, where : means long sound). My native language does not have long vowels, so I cannot hear it normally and have to learn on word-by-word basis.

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#110821 - 10/19/13 05:42 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
jonnydot Offline
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try this I think the word is phonetically pronounced the same in Danish as it is in English http://en.bab.la/dictionary/english-danish/brahma

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#110822 - 10/19/13 05:44 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
mibirder Offline
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I can only speak to my experience, but generally here in the northern states (US) it is pronounced with a short a (by both "oldtimer" chicken and cattle folks) - elsewhere, in the southern states they often use the long a pronouncation. It seems as though its more a regional difference here in the US.

Cochin, on the other hand is mudered by newbies even though all "oldtimers" use the co:chin!

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#110823 - 10/19/13 05:48 AM Re: Historical question [Re: mibirder]
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#110824 - 10/19/13 05:51 AM Re: Historical question [Re: jonnydot]
jonnydot Offline
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sent a message to my sister and her husband both are teachers with specialties ...lots of letters after their names lol

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#110826 - 10/19/13 07:06 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Bushman Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw

To native English speakers: Is the first letter a in Brahma pronounced as a long vowel or short?


In most places here it is spoken as "ah" as in cheetah, but some folks say it with a long a as in play. So both pronunciations are used.
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#112462 - 03/21/14 02:47 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Bushman]
Wieslaw Offline
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New question: who and when "created the notion" of eb?

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#112463 - 03/21/14 04:27 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Offline
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I think, it was the Great Dr. Morejohn in 1955
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=101777

OCR-Version
Plumage Color Allelism In The Red Jungle Fowl (Gallus Gallus) And Related Domestic Forms (Morejohn, V. 1955)
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/4/519.pdf
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#112467 - 03/22/14 12:16 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Posts: 2871
Loc: Australia
Yes, it was Morejohn 1955 that named eb brown after the chick's brown down (both eb brown & es speckled head mutant chicks found in Brown Leghorns).

Brumbaugh & Hollander (B&H) published an abstract in 1963, where they list:
Quote:
ep partridge (Morejohn's eb "brown")


Later, Brumbaugh & Hollander 1965 explain that they found the same Morejohn eb traits in Dark Brown Leghorn, Partridge Rock & Pencilled Wyandottes. Because Smyth & Bohren 1949 (published a short abstract) had named the Dark Brown Leghorn allele ep, predating Morejohn's 1955 eb nomenclature, then B&H thought that Morejohn's eb brown should be changed back to eP partridge to acknowledge Smyth & Bohrens' earlier research.

But, in the same year, Smyth 1965 published a paper, noted he had extracted eb allele traits from recessive white Plymouth Rocks (crossed with Light Brown Leghorn, segregated in F2), plus found the same allele in Partridge Plymouth Rocks. Smyth quotes B&H 1963 abstract, it seems didn't see B&H 1965 paper explaining the ep nomenclature reasoning.

Smyth...
Quote:
Brumbaugh and Hollander (1963) have suggested the descending order of dominance for the E alleles to be as follows:
E-eWh-e+-eb-es-ebc-ey *.

These workers indicate that Morejohn's eb and their ep (partridge) are the same allele, but apparently prefer the ep symbol. Since Morejohn (1955) preceded the above, and since the brown gene undoubtedly affects phenotypes other than those designated "partridge," the author has substituted eb for ep in the above list of alleles.

* Note, B&H 1963 actually wrote eP partridge (Morejohn's eb "brown")

All quite ironic the reasonings for switching back & forth smile

---------------------------

While I have the quote handy, the following from Smyth (1965) on the phenotype of e+/eb :
Quote:
The F1 down color was wild type with some increase in mottling along the front edge of the dorsal stripe and foreface. However, unlike the results of Morejohn (1955) this was not consistent enough to allow clear separation of the e+eb and e+e+ down phenotypes.

The F1 juvenile males were essentially wild type but showed more extensive red streaking on the breast than does pure wild type.
Adult F1 males were indistinguishable from e+e+ males, and for this reason, in this particular case, the segregation ratios in the backcross and F2 matings are based on down color.

The F1 juvenile and adult females differed from wild type only in that intermediate amounts of dark stippling showed in the salmon breast. In the F2, all brown female chicks turned out to have non-salmon, stippled breasts, while the wild type female chicks were similar to either the wild type or F1 parent.


--------------------------
References:

A multiple allelic series affecting feather color in the domestic fowl.
Smyth, J. R., Jr., and B. B. Bohren,
Poultry Sci. 1949. 28: 782. [Abstract]

Plumage Color Allelism in the Red Jungle Fowl (Gallus Gallus) and Related Domestic Forms
Morejohn, V.
Genetics. Jul 1955; 40(4): 519–530.
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/4/519.pdf

A further study of the E pattern locus in the fowl.
Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. F. Hollander,
Genetics, 1963. 48: 884. [Abstract]

A further study of the E pattern locus in the fowl.
Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. F. Hollander,
Iowa State Journal of Science. (1965) Vol 40, No 1. : 51-64.

Allelic Relationship of Genes Determining Extended Black, Wild Type and Brown Plumage Patterns in the Fowl:
J. Robert Smyth, Jr.
Poultry Science (1965) 44 (1): 89-98
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/1/89.abstract


Edited by KazJaps (03/22/14 12:51 AM)
Edit Reason: added references

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#112474 - 03/22/14 10:58 AM Re: Historical question [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
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Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Yes, it was Morejohn 1955 that named eb brown after the chick's brown down (both eb brown & es speckled head mutant chicks found in Brown Leghorns).

Brumbaugh & Hollander (B&H) published an abstract in 1963, where they list:
Quote:
ep partridge (Morejohn's eb "brown")


Later, Brumbaugh & Hollander 1965 explain that they found the same Morejohn eb traits in Dark Brown Leghorn, Partridge Rock & Pencilled Wyandottes. Because Smyth & Bohren 1949 (published a short abstract) had named the Dark Brown Leghorn allele ep, predating Morejohn's 1955 eb nomenclature, then B&H thought that Morejohn's eb brown should be changed back to eP partridge to acknowledge Smyth & Bohrens' earlier research.

But, in the same year, Smyth 1965 published a paper, noted he had extracted eb allele traits from recessive white Plymouth Rocks (crossed with Light Brown Leghorn, segregated in F2), plus found the same allele in Partridge Plymouth Rocks. Smyth quotes B&H 1963 abstract, it seems didn't see B&H 1965 paper explaining the ep nomenclature reasoning.

Smyth...
Quote:
Brumbaugh and Hollander (1963) have suggested the descending order of dominance for the E alleles to be as follows:
E-eWh-e+-eb-es-ebc-ey *.

These workers indicate that Morejohn's eb and their ep (partridge) are the same allele, but apparently prefer the ep symbol. Since Morejohn (1955) preceded the above, and since the brown gene undoubtedly affects phenotypes other than those designated "partridge," the author has substituted eb for ep in the above list of alleles.

* Note, B&H 1963 actually wrote eP partridge (Morejohn's eb "brown")

All quite ironic the reasonings for switching back & forth smile

---------------------------

While I have the quote handy, the following from Smyth (1965) on the phenotype of e+/eb :
Quote:
The F1 down color was wild type with some increase in mottling along the front edge of the dorsal stripe and foreface. However, unlike the results of Morejohn (1955) this was not consistent enough to allow clear separation of the e+eb and e+e+ down phenotypes.

The F1 juvenile males were essentially wild type but showed more extensive red streaking on the breast than does pure wild type.
Adult F1 males were indistinguishable from e+e+ males, and for this reason, in this particular case, the segregation ratios in the backcross and F2 matings are based on down color.

The F1 juvenile and adult females differed from wild type only in that intermediate amounts of dark stippling showed in the salmon breast. In the F2, all brown female chicks turned out to have non-salmon, stippled breasts, while the wild type female chicks were similar to either the wild type or F1 parent.


--------------------------
References:

A multiple allelic series affecting feather color in the domestic fowl.
Smyth, J. R., Jr., and B. B. Bohren,
Poultry Sci. 1949. 28: 782. [Abstract]

Crosses between chickens having extended
black, New Hampshire (Columbian), Dark Cornish,
and Dark Brown Leghorn color patterns showed
that each pattern differed from the others by a
single autosomal gene. Crosses in which three
or four of these characters were involved simultaneously
also segregated in a manner indicating
the existence of an allelic series consisting of three
and possibly four genes. Black (E) is dominant to
the black-red (ep) pattern as in the Cornish and
Brown Leghorn and is incompletely dominant to
Columbian (e). The Columbian pattern (e) is
almost completely dominant to Cornish but is less
completely dominant to the Brown Leghorn pattern.
The data are insufficient at this time to determine
the relationship of the Cornish and Brown Leghorn
patterns. The data suggest that these patterns are
produced by two alleles at the E locus thus giving
a four allele series. It is possible, however, that
further investigation may show these two patterns
to be produced by a single allele at this locus and
that the differences between them is caused by
genes modifying the basic black-red pattern and
resulting in a three allele series.


Plumage Color Allelism in the Red Jungle Fowl (Gallus Gallus) and Related Domestic Forms
Morejohn, V.
Genetics. Jul 1955; 40(4): 519–530.
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/4/519.pdf

A further study of the E pattern locus in the fowl.
Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. F. Hollander,
Genetics, 1963. 48: 884. [Abstract]
Digital version will follow
A further study of the E pattern locus in the fowl.
Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. F. Hollander,
Iowa State Journal of Science. (1965) Vol 40, No 1. : 51-64.
Digital version will follow

Allelic Relationship of Genes Determining Extended Black, Wild Type and Brown Plumage Patterns in the Fowl:
J. Robert Smyth, Jr.
Poultry Science (1965) 44 (1): 89-98
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/1/89.abstract
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#112477 - 03/22/14 11:20 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2871
Loc: Australia
The following paper is quoted sometimes as the first use of ER (Birchen allele), & that R = restricted:

The Case of the Blue Andalusian
William A. Lippincott
The American Naturalist , Vol. 52, No. 614 (Feb. - Mar., 1918) , pp. 95-115
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2456139

But it is also quoted as the first use of E - Extended Black (cited by B&H 1965).

Yes, Lippincott used "E" for 'extension of black', & "R" for 'restricted', but R restriction was in reference to the Bl gene - dose dependent restriction (meaning dilution) of black (eumelanin), not ER birchen/brown red phenotype - an increase in phaeomelanin to E.

Lippincott wasn't sure at the time why the 1:2:1 ratios (black:blue:blue-splash) of blue breeding, ie didn't know whether 2 loci involved with blues or just one locus with two alleles (ie E and R alleles of same locus), etc.

So yes, E was used in reference to extension of black, but was not directly in reference to the MC1R E locus, & neither was ER in reference to ER - Birchen allele.

The problem was Lippincott really needed a way to express wild-type 'non-blue' in to the equation instead of "black", plus nomenclature to define between heterozygotes & homozygotes.

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#112482 - 03/23/14 05:38 AM Re: Historical question [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
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Funny ... it should have been clear (just the title for itself) that this study has investigated the genetic of blue ...
Er Er = black X eR eR = blue-splashed => F1 Er eR blue;
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#112484 - 03/23/14 07:36 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Wieslaw Offline
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Thanks a lot guys. ey was also introduced by Morejohn. While we are at the subject, what about eWh?(So that we have them all here)

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#112486 - 03/23/14 03:29 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Offline
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May I hijack the thread for an other question?
Could it be, that the historical Dominique chicken were B & Pg based?
The Schilling birds, dated to 1915, show a kind of "concentric barring".
http://www.huehner-info.de/forum/showthr...l=1#post1064281
Quote:
On the other hand, any who have had the pleasure of seeing good specimens can appreciate the erratic pattern of the Dominique’s barring. One particular trait that is lost in many of the modern strains is the "eye" that is to be seen at the end of each feather. The shape of the bars and the rounded end of the feather causes this. One could almost call the final bar – "lacing". If you are unsure of this pattern, look closely at A.O. Schilling’s artwork in the black and white Standard of Perfection.

http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Why_American_Dominiques.html
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#112487 - 03/23/14 03:46 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Theropod Offline
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Loc: Missouri, USA
I think it is very, very possible as American Dominiques are of great interest to me. I am incorporating American Game into one of my lines to increase feather quality / size. Game strain also carries Pg. The Pg I hope will help compensate for faster feather growth and keep bar contrast up to control for smokey look that would otherwise occur with faster feather growth.

I think the American Dominique has more than one locus that slows feather growth promoting crisper barring. Impact of these is not as extreme as in Barred Plymouth Rock where crispness of barring even more important.

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#112488 - 03/23/14 04:48 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Theropod]
Redcap Offline
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#112489 - 03/23/14 05:28 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Theropod Offline
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I can access them through interlibrary loan. Some I have seen before. I find it difficult to believe the dissertation (last) allowed enough time to work out genetics through experimental crosses.

I have not been able to find comparable concerning American Dominiques.

The thyroid business is interesting as a school-mate was exploring the role of the thyroid hormones (T3 and T4) on barring in clown fish. Exposure occurred during larval development analogous to embryonic development in birds. Impacts on barring seemed to be the result of meristic (vertebrate number) changes and relative tissue maturation rates.

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#112490 - 03/24/14 01:20 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Theropod]
Redcap Offline
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The first study in Poultry Science compares feather, body growth and performance of a offspring of a show strain which was selected either after performance only or for exhibition traits only. The result was that the exhibition strain lost performance.
This study raises up also the need of breeding in cock breeder strain and pullet breeder strains to improve phenotype and (probably) performance.

Originally Posted By: Redcap
May I hijack the thread for an other question?
Could it be, that the historical Dominique chicken were B & Pg based?
The Schilling birds, dated to 1915, show a kind of "concentric barring".
http://www.huehner-info.de/forum/showthr...l=1#post1064281
Quote:
On the other hand, any who have had the pleasure of seeing good specimens can appreciate the erratic pattern of the Dominique’s barring. One particular trait that is lost in many of the modern strains is the "eye" that is to be seen at the end of each feather. The shape of the bars and the rounded end of the feather causes this. One could almost call the final bar – "lacing". If you are unsure of this pattern, look closely at A.O. Schilling’s artwork in the black and white Standard of Perfection.

http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Why_American_Dominiques.html


How can the described "eye" be understood genetically?
As mooney, like in Pheasant Fowl or Redcaps?
https://archive.org/stream/poultrybookcomp00tegegoog#page/n218/mode/2up
See Fig. 2 & 8
This leads me again to the question, are they based on the Hamburg family (Hamburgs, OEPF or Redcaps)?
Mooney and rose combed ancestors seems to be obviously.
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#112491 - 03/24/14 02:27 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Htul Offline
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Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Thanks a lot guys. ey was also introduced by Morejohn. While we are at the subject, what about eWh?(So that we have them all here)


KImball (1960) Genetics of wheaten plumage in the fowl Poultry Science 39 (3): 768-774.

However, he fails to recognise this as an allele in the E series

The very difficult to obtain: Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. E Hollander. "A further study of the E pattern
locus in the fowl." Iowa State Journal of Science. 40 (1965): 51-64

however, tests this directly to demonstrate that eWh is indeed an allele at the E locus.

Maybe worth a short sticky to describe each of the E locus alleles and who the first was to describe each of them (and associated reference)?

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#112492 - 03/24/14 02:02 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Htul]
Wieslaw Offline
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Henk is the Master of the stickies.

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#112493 - 03/24/14 04:19 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Offline
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Regarding the Dominiques ancestors or genetic:

I just found right now, that it was postulated, that Hamburgs or rose combed Leghorn were ancestors of the Dominique.
In the 18th century they were rather called Pheasants and were of great heterogeneity in the plumage pattern (see Feather pattern of the Hamburg Family in the Poultry Book)
http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Origin_of_the_Dominiques.html
So I would suppose that the Pheasant Fowl (today they have breast lacing, Redcaps have not) of that Time were the ancestors.
The different local strains of Pheasant Fowls and Lancashire Mooneys (hen-feathered) were unified as Hamburgs in the 19th century, only the the Yorkshire Pheasants left over as Old English Pheasant Fowl and the Derbyshire Redcaps as distinct breed to the Hamburgs.
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924003073248#page/n537/mode/2up
But there were also so called Dominique Leghorn, so maybe that's the way they come up
https://archive.org/stream/questofleghornbo00ayre#page/30/mode/2up/search/dominique
In the middle of 19th century they were described as Hawk coloured, blue speckled, dung hill fowl, commonly called Dominiques or Dominicas.
http://books.google.de/books?id=qlk2AQAA...que&f=false
https://archive.org/stream/cu31924003159427#page/n35/mode/2up/search/dominique
http://books.google.de/books?id=4aY9AAAA...que&f=false
http://books.google.de/books?id=LKPbAAAA...led&f=false
http://books.google.de/books?id=TjZOAAAA...ill&f=false
So in the meanwhile, I realized it isn't easy to trace back the ancestor in detail, but there is still the question.
Could it be that the Dominiques were spangled-barred to Schillings time??
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#112494 - 03/24/14 05:35 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Theropod Offline
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My gut feeling is the American Dominique started off as a composite of many different backgrounds and owing to location and timing, American / Old English Games were part of that hence the use of dunghill. Other breeds like Scots Grey may also be involved. The sex-linked barring could have been derived from a variety of lines. To get a real handle, genetic analysis would need to be run on tissue / feather samples from American Dominiques at the time of the breeds recognition. The breed after that very likely suffered infusion of other breeds just as the Barred Plymouth Rock supposedly did following the split of the two.

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#112495 - 03/24/14 09:48 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Theropod]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2871
Loc: Australia
To me, the Schilling Dominique images actually show alot of feathers with white tips. As I don't think this is due to mottling mo gene, I also don't think feathers ending in a narrow band of eumelanin is indicative of Pg.

Cote's findings through test breeding:

Exhibition Barred Plymouth Rock: E/E Ml-Pg/ml+-pg+ Co/co+ Id w/w

This doesn't suggests that Pg has an effect on barring edge phenotype in Dominique, Barred Plymouth Rock, etc.

There usually needs to be phaeomelanin for Pg to express on feather pattern (eg non E or ER Co based, Db based, etc, female non E or ER or eWh, concentric pencilling etc).

Pg is usually hypostatic on E or ER based solid eumelanin varieties, & also in Smyth's eb solid black line (had Pg-Ml too). Smyth actually lists Pg as a partial eumelaniser, in his 1976 Melanin paper.

Except in the presence of Bl, laced blue - Pg-Ml. And my experience with B Bl/bl+ Pg-Ml is that with males, the top dark blue areas (wing bows, neck hackles, etc) are cleanly barred (dark blue & white -even spacing) but the body is predominantly laced blue, dark blue/black edge with faint blue barring centres (not clean white bars, mostly dark blue & light grey-white bars).

So I can't see Pg giving a thin pigmented bar tip, then large white bar in solid eumelanin based Dominiques, Barred Rocks, Cuckoo etc phenotypes. It's that large white band that's not indicative of Pg (Pg being a eumelaniser).

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#112497 - 03/25/14 12:12 AM Re: Historical question [Re: KazJaps]
Theropod Offline
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KazJaps, I am trying to follow you with respect to Pg. Is it not possible that Pg could re-enforce barring promoted by the sex-linked barring gene? Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin as I understand it use the some of the same pathways in their production.


Edited by Theropod (03/25/14 12:12 AM)

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#112498 - 03/25/14 02:14 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Theropod]
Redcap Offline
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Registered: 08/14/06
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That are mooney feathers. I just thought that spangling could be the reason for the extensive white bands, as in Wybars the lacing.
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#112499 - 03/25/14 02:51 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2871
Loc: Australia
Why American Dominiques?
http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Why_American_Dominiques.html
Quote:
One particular trait that is lost in many of the modern strains is the "eye" that is to be seen at the end of each feather. The shape of the bars and the rounded end of the feather causes this. One could almost call the final bar – "lacing".


If you do look at Schilling's Dominique hen, & what I take as the trait the author above is referring to, it is the thin eumelanin bar on the feather tip, but also the very large white bar below it, to produce this phenotype. Why would Pg do this? Whatever the modifier is, it is restricting eumelanin to the tip, expanding the white band substantially. And remember the white band is not phaeomelanin-silver. As I mentioned previously, Smyth believed that Pg was a partial eumelaniser, not a restrictor. Why would a eumelaniser take away pigment on a eumelanin base? I don't know for certain, but it seems counter-intuitive that Pg would produce this phenotype with B.

You could look at Cambar & other similar genotypes (B and Pg-Db, both sex-linked barring & autosomal barring) for any clues.

I'm not aware of sequencing of the Pg mutation as yet, so don't have any clue of the structural gene & modification to it, to produce Pg.

As to laced blue Bl/bl+ Pg-Ml. My guess is that Pg adds intensity to the feather edge, not the other way around & take away intensity from the centre of the feather (leaving a dark edge). This guess is from looking at non-laced blue phenotypes, where you can see in males dark blue tops (neck hackles, wing bow etc), yet light blue body. Add Pg & you get the dark top colour produced as dark lacing on the light blue body too.

Blue Bl is a strange one, as it doesn't seem like Pg-Ml has the same effect on other eumelanin diluters like lavender and chocolate. Except when you combine Bl/bl+ Pg-Ml with choc (see bottom photo):
http://www.orpingtonbantams.co.uk/choc.htm

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#112500 - 03/25/14 09:59 AM Re: Historical question [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
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Smyth et al. described, that Pg controlls the rearrangement of eumelamin on a continuum from stippling, over pencilling, autosomal barring, spangling, mooney** (something between spangling and buttercup pattern until spangling and lacing) and lacing.
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post14


** compare feather pattern in the picture in 2nd row, 5th column (right mouse click to enlarge)
http://www.derbyshireredcapclub.webeden.co.uk/#/club-photos/4514975513
That's the Taylor line, where my birds comes from

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#112502 - 03/25/14 07:14 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Thank you for the OCR version of Smyth's PB&G chapter.

Yes, where there is eumelanin stippling on phaeomelanin background, Pg rearranges this stippling & enhances the eumelanin. Usually there needs to be other modifiers for Pg to express in males (eg, where there is no stippling, etc), eg Co, Db, Bl, Ml, Hf, etc.

As mentioned earlier, Smyth lists Pg (Lg) as a partial eumelaniser in the following 1976 paper (see Figure 1):

Genetic Control of Melanin Pigmentation in the Fowl
http://www.poultryscience.org/docs/pba/1952-2003/1976/1976%20Smyth.pdf
Quote:
The black-intensifying factors shown in Figure I include melanotlc, Ml,which is even more effective when linked with lacing, Lg (Moore and Smyth, 1971).

Moore, J. W., and J. R Smyth, Jr, 1971. Melanotic: Key to a phenotypic enigma in the fowl. J. Hered. 62: 214-219.

The following from Smyth, about his eb/eb Recessive Black line (RBL):
Lg = Pg
Quote:
Our present data indicate that the RBL line carries a number of eumelanin intensifiers, but at this time only two individual genes have been isolated for study. These include melanotlc (Ml), one of the line's major eumelanlzers, and lacing (Lg)." ....]

[....As expected, lacing has its greatest eumelanizing effect on the feather margins, and this effect is intensified in the presence of MI.


Smyth also discovered in his Silver-laced Wyandotte study that Pg (alone, without Ml)) adds eumelanin to the tip of the feather, in eb Co base.

"Lacing" & Lg = Pg
Quote:
Lacing alone results in a black tip, while eumelanin is extended proximally along the margin when Ml is added.


The following diagram is based on Figure 4:


Also the following observation by Smyth, when they extracted the mutations in Silver-laced Wyandotte:
Quote:
When MI-Lg are found in the absence of Co, then the lacing is poorly expressed and associated with secondary pattern effects in the center of the feather.


*Notice that on eb co+/co+ base that Ml-Pg didn't produce exhibition quality double-laced, as in Barnevelders & Indian Games. But in his original paper on this Silver-laced Wyandotte, he did mention that there was an unidentified modifier that enhanced the lacing to produce the exhibition single-laced phenotype (ie Pg-Ml Co alone wasn't exhibition quality lacing).

Inheritance of the Silver-Laced Wyandotte Plumage Pattern
Moore & Smyth
J Hered (1972) 63 (4): 179-184
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/63/4/179.full.pdf

*Not free access now.

The following by Smyth (1976 Melanin paper] on the effects of Ml-Pg on Bl:

Quote:
Recent observations by Cote (1976) suggest that the linked combination of Ml-Lg is also responsible for the black marginal lace found on blue plumage Bl/bl+. It is suggested that the blue genotype is ineffective against eumelanin present in association with Ml-Pg. This also leads one to speculate on the role of these mutations in the black hackle and black plumage of the Blue Andalusian Male.


Of course, B is different to Bl in dilution, but it just doesn't make sense that Pg on eumelanin would reduce the B barring eumelanin band to the feather tip, then produce a larger B white band (lack of eumelanin pigment, not phaeomelanin). My guess is that on a barred buff columbian phenotype that Pg/Pg would add a small eumelanin tip (incomplete lace-spangle) to buff & white banded (barred) feathers. Ie, Pg is a partial eumelaniser.

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#112503 - 03/25/14 07:37 PM Re: Historical question [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
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Thank You for the description.
Smyth mentioned, that Barring (B) will be expressed totally different on other E-loci than in E.

Quote:
The expression of B on non-E backgrounds is more variable, but in general, black feathers are barred in the presence of B, but the expression of the barring is less precise, as in the Old English Crete Game. Barred red or buff columbian stocks have been developed, including the Gold Barred Rock (Punnett and Pease, 1928) and the Gold Barred Basque (Campo and Orozco, 1980). The expression of head spotting is more variable on pheomelanic backgrounds, and is enhanced in chicks with darker head coloration (Punnett and Pease, 1928; Jaap, 1941). Barring also is expressed, although again imprecisely, on autosomal blue (Bl/bl+) feathers (Lippincott, 1921; Smyth, unpublished). This probably explains the lack of popularity of blue barred breeds among breeders of exhibition poultry.
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#112505 - 03/25/14 08:44 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Here is that Punnett & Pease paper:

Genetic studies in poultry. VI. The Gold Barred Rock.
R. C. Punnett and M. S. Pease. 1928
Journal of Genetics. Volume 19, Number 3, 337-350
http://www.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/19/337.pdf

The authors note that the buff is too pale, & that the Gold Barred Rock breed is still in an imperfect state.

There is a photo of feathers from the Gold Barred Rock (GBR) male (eumelanin & phaeomelanin on the same feathers), showing that the B white barring has equal effect on both eumelanin & phaeomelanin (a straight line across the feather).

When they crossed the GBR (B/b+) male with a Barred Plymouth Rock female, they produced some single-laced in F2 (also columbian phenotype).
This indicated that the Barred Plymouth Rock female had Pg-Ml.

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#112510 - 03/26/14 01:16 AM Re: Historical question [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
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Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
Interesting - so it could be possible, that Dominiques were actually B/B(b+) Pg/Pg+ Ml/ml+ or B/B(b+) Pg/Pg Ml/ml+

I just found a study about Ancobar, a nice phenotype, aswell.
http://jhered.oxfordjournals.org/content/32/7/221.full.pdf
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#112526 - 03/29/14 01:48 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Offline
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Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
I just want to show the Ancobar phenotype





Again, just for comparison Dominique feathers and Barred Plymouth Rock feathers (1920)
https://archive.org/stream/matingbreedingof00lamo#page/122/mode/2up
https://archive.org/stream/matingbreedingof00lamo#page/80/mode/2up
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#112832 - 05/30/14 04:05 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Offline
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Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: KazJaps

A further study of the E pattern locus in the fowl.
Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. F. Hollander,
Iowa State Journal of Science. (1965) Vol 40, No 1. : 51-64.
Digital version will follow

http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post15
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#114455 - 06/09/15 12:26 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3844
Loc: Denmark
This one is (mainly) for Americans.

In The Minorca fowl (1893), by Harrison T.H.( no longer available on wayback machine? The link supplied by Kazjaps does not work) I have found a piece of information, that in the 1800's in UK, any black hen was "risking" to be called Spanish



Then I read a description of creation of Plymouth Rocks, with a footnote saying , that the Black Spanish in the text was in fact "some sort of Minorca"




Now I have a problem with a history of leghorns from the same book. It also says Spanish in the crosses. Somehow it does not seem right for me, why would anybody use Spanish. I have a suspicion, that it could be Minorca also in this case. Any other sources of history of leghorns other than The Poultry Book (1903) Volume 1 by Harrison Weir ?


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#114456 - 06/09/15 12:46 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Offline
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Registered: 08/14/06
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#114462 - 06/11/15 12:57 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
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#115181 - 11/21/15 04:47 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany

Originally Posted By: Redcap
The first study in Poultry Science compares feather, body growth and performance of a offspring of a show strain which was selected either after performance only or for exhibition traits only. The result was that the exhibition strain lost performance.
This study raises up also the need of breeding in cock breeder strain and pullet breeder strains to improve phenotype and (probably) performance.

Originally Posted By: Redcap
May I hijack the thread for an other question?
Could it be, that the historical Dominique chicken were B & Pg based?
The Schilling birds, dated to 1915, show a kind of "concentric barring".
http://www.huehner-info.de/forum/showthr...l=1#post1064281
Quote:
On the other hand, any who have had the pleasure of seeing good specimens can appreciate the erratic pattern of the Dominique’s barring. One particular trait that is lost in many of the modern strains is the "eye" that is to be seen at the end of each feather. The shape of the bars and the rounded end of the feather causes this. One could almost call the final bar – "lacing". If you are unsure of this pattern, look closely at A.O. Schilling’s artwork in the black and white Standard of Perfection.

http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Why_American_Dominiques.html


How can the described "eye" be understood genetically?
As mooney, like in Pheasant Fowl or Redcaps?
https://archive.org/stream/poultrybookcomp00tegegoog#page/n218/mode/2up
See Fig. 2 & 8
This leads me again to the question, are they based on the Hamburg family (Hamburgs, OEPF or Redcaps)?
Mooney and rose combed ancestors seems to be obviously.

I found an explanation for the "lost eye".
It can be explained by the selection for slow feathering in show strains to get a sharper barring, see also Martin (1929)
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=115180#Post115180
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#116931 - 11/29/17 06:45 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3844
Loc: Denmark
here are some views on when chickens began to be used for economical purposes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4538678/

Earliest economic exploitation of chicken outside East Asia: Evidence from the Hellenistic Southern Levant

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#116932 - 11/29/17 03:23 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3844
Loc: Denmark
Early Holocene chicken domestication in northern China.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25422439/

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