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#107835 - 01/17/13 05:23 AM Blue Eggs ?
ssc Offline
Chicken

Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 83
Loc: uk
I would assume that a blue egg layer crossed in with a white egg layer would give offspring which laid a blue, though slightly paler blue egg?

Is this the case?

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#107836 - 01/17/13 05:31 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: ssc]
Wieslaw Offline
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Provided the hen is O/O , her daughters will still lay blue. The other part depends on what kind of white egg(there is one in white Leghorns which is said to suppress colour). I do not know about the other birds which lay white eggs too.

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#107837 - 01/17/13 05:46 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Wieslaw]
ssc Offline
Chicken

Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 83
Loc: uk
smile Thanks Wieslaw

So you think the blue of the eggs would retain the same intensity even when crossed in with a white egg layer?

I presume it would not make any difference if it was the male rather than the female which was O/O?

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#107838 - 01/17/13 06:47 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: ssc]
Bushman Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
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Loc: Wisconsin
It stands to reason that an O/O hen would produce eggshells with a more intense shade of blue than one that is O/o. But in most cases the coloring fades the longer the hen is in lay.
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#107842 - 01/17/13 11:53 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Bushman]
Marvin Offline
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Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Bushman
It stands to reason that an O/O hen would produce eggshells with a more intense shade of blue than one that is O/o. But in most cases the coloring fades the longer the hen is in lay.
this is correct. unless the O gene is one of the rare "complete" dominant gene, unlike most incomplete dominant genes

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#107844 - 01/17/13 12:26 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Marvin]
Wieslaw Offline
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Somebody from this forum who keeps blue eggers(was it Jocelyn??)made an observation about not noticing the difference between homo and hetero O. But there can be modifiers/intensifiers too.

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#107847 - 01/17/13 02:17 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Wieslaw]
Bushman Offline
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Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Somebody from this forum who keeps blue eggers(was it Jocelyn??)made an observation about not noticing the difference between homo and hetero O. But there can be modifiers/intensifiers too.


I suppose that is possible, but I have noticed a difference in my flock. I have raised many strains of blue eggers since the middle 1970's.
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

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#107849 - 01/17/13 02:44 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: ssc]
Wieslaw Offline
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Thanks Bushman, nice to know. I have only heterozygotes, but there is a difference between them too. Some of them are distinctly more green than blue(it can't be washed off, so no brown genes involved).

Originally Posted By: ssc
I presume it would not make any difference if it was the male rather than the female which was O/O?


You presume correctly.

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#107865 - 01/18/13 07:44 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Wieslaw]
Moo Offline
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Registered: 04/29/05
Posts: 411
Loc: Washington
I have legbars that I crossed to brown leghorns. My original legbar lays an egg that is more green, the pullets (1/2 leghorn) lay an egg that is white with a blue tint. Unless I have it next to a white egg, it looks white to me

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#107872 - 01/18/13 04:35 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Moo]
Jocelyn Offline
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Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1467
Loc: Canada
Guess which hen hatched from a light brown shiny egg? This means she is split to brown, only one copy of O.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Hint, shiny must be in both sides of the house.

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#107876 - 01/18/13 05:07 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Jocelyn
Guess which hen hatched from a light brown shiny egg? This means she is split to brown, only one copy of O.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
Hint, shiny must be in both sides of the house.


thanks as always Mrs. Jocelyn I am always happy to hear your coments


Edited by Henk69 (01/19/13 05:39 AM)

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#107888 - 01/19/13 05:38 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Marvin]
Wieslaw Offline
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I'm making it official: I want my eggs to be shiny too. WHAT TO DO??

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#107889 - 01/19/13 05:41 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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Buy some Tinamoes.


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#107894 - 01/19/13 11:03 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Henk69]
Jocelyn Offline
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Loc: Canada
The shiny trait is recessive, so if you don't have it, you need to bring it in. Many araucanas have lost that trait as folks graded up from whatever they could get. The matt finish is prevalant in Continental stocks and appears absent in South American stocks and some of the Asian stocks. So, got any Silkies? How about an araucana who hatched from a shiny egg? The shiny eggs appear so much more saturated, when they are actually about the same colour.
I must say, I likle it myself, grin.

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#107895 - 01/19/13 12:02 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
Mike_H Offline
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Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 33
Loc: Texas
My blue eggers are mostly O/O but I do have one O/o hen.
At the beginning of the laying season her eggs are indistinguishable from the others.
But by it's end hers are more white than blue, while the eggs from the O/O hens retain most of their color.

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#107896 - 01/19/13 12:15 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Mike_H]
Mike_H Offline
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Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 33
Loc: Texas
I have had Hamburgs that laid particularly glossy eggs, but I never considered the possibility of moving that trait to any other birds. A new project to think about. Thanks Jocelyn!

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#107901 - 01/19/13 05:14 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
Marvin Offline
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Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Jocelyn
The shiny trait is recessive, so if you don't have it, you need to bring it in.
I believe the eggs become shiny when the hen goes broody and sits on them for a while and when they are close to hatch they become shiny due to the constant friction

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#107902 - 01/19/13 06:07 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Marvin]
Bushman Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
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Loc: Wisconsin
No, I'm afraid it does not work that way. They are already shiney when they are laid.
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
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#107905 - 01/20/13 11:02 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Bushman]
Jocelyn Offline
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Registered: 08/26/02
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Yes, they are shiny as soon as they dry. Eggs under a hen get shiny too, but they start off matt finished. Shiny eggs also look more translucent.

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#107907 - 01/20/13 11:56 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Bushman]
Marvin Offline
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Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Bushman
No, I'm afraid it does not work that way. They are already shiney when they are laid.
well mine get shiny as they get near hatching time. but I have never seen this shiny eggs, BUT the white leghorns all lay(in nicaragua) Mate colored eggs, I have seen hens that lay intermediate(between shiny and mate) eggs, could this be they carry the recessive trait? I also would love to have the shiny egg gene

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#107908 - 01/20/13 12:33 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Marvin]
CJR Offline
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Registered: 07/16/02
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Loc: Montana
My bantams are kept in pens of trios, usually. Pullets or hens are sometimes sisters, but whether or not closely related, eggs of both females are easily distinguished--shape--slight difference in color of shell (pale off-white, sometimes very slightly tan), and texture of shell. Since I write on every egg when collected (date and band number of hen and cock), I also can easily identiy hen that layed the egg, not only shape/color, but also by smooth, (pencil labeling will be light and wears off during the 21 days set--have to rewrite when candeling) and different degrees of "coarseness", will write dark and color will last well under a setting hen! AND a few hen lay not only smooth shells, but very shiny shelled eggs! Have a CLB pullet laying very shiny shelled eggs and just hatched an egg of her dam's--not shiny. I will take a picture of various eggs from different hens/pullets-only a few now laying. Never thought of it as hereditary, rather individual characteristic of the work of the shell gland??

Shine during the turning during setting is not the same shine of the shell of an egg that was composed to be SHINY. Interesting...CJR

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#107944 - 01/22/13 01:20 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Marvin]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
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Loc: Missouri
I have some Araucana's that lay shiny eggs and some a matte finish. I'll definitely have to pay attention to the chicks that hatch from those to keep and see how it reproduces

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#107950 - 01/23/13 05:48 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Smooth Mule]
Jocelyn Offline
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Registered: 08/26/02
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Loc: Canada
It will be fun for you to figure it out. I had all shiny at one point, but had a raccoon kill down and had to bring in some outside stock. Some of these had matt finished eggs. It has been fun selecting for the shine again. It is inherited, but I won't spoil your fun by saying too much, unless you wish that.

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#107951 - 01/23/13 07:12 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
Wieslaw Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jocelyn
It is inherited, but I won't spoil your fun by saying too much, unless you wish that.


Just spoil her fun now.

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#107953 - 01/23/13 01:05 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Wieslaw]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Originally Posted By: Jocelyn
It is inherited, but I won't spoil your fun by saying too much, unless you wish that.


Just spoil her fun now.
yes spoil her and our fun now PLEASE...!

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#107961 - 01/23/13 02:47 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Marvin]
Lanae Offline
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Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 123
Loc: Willits, California
I would like my fun spoiled Jocelyn. I have a few shiny egg layers but they seem to lay the green color and less blue. I have not considered selecting for shine but I know I prefer the shiny eggs. If that is the direction that is preferred for the correct araucana egg then please let me know how it is inherited and I will add it to my list of things to select for each year as birds begin to lay.

Lanae

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#107971 - 01/24/13 04:36 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Lanae]
Jocelyn Offline
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Ok, Smooth Mule, don't read any further, huge grin.


Shiny is recessive, meaning you need two doses of the gene to get it. A bird laying shiny, mated to a bird hatched from a matt finished egg will produce daughters laying matt. There are occassional birds that lay semi-shiny, but I can't produce them from a shiny to matt mating. There is no link to colour, meaning any colour egg can be shiny. There is a seperate gene for translucent eggs, and it needs shiny to express. It also appears to be recessive, and doesn't show up on a matt egg. Translucent shiny eggs are lovely, grin. Translucent and shiny are not linked, and breed true if the family carries both. Matt eggs with two hits of translucent have the occasional translucent spot that shows up only on candling. Some birds carry yet another gene for a chalky covering on their eggs, and it can go on OVER whatever else is there. You need to breed that out altogether. Colour enhancing genes can make the colour more saturated, deeper. You need to breed out the BROWN enhancing genes, leaving the blue ones. Just set the bluer ones, as always, and it happens on its own. Translucent eggs hatch better, no idea why.

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#107973 - 01/24/13 07:21 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Jocelyn
Ok, Smooth Mule, don't read any further, huge grin.


Shiny is recessive, meaning you need two doses of the gene to get it. A bird laying shiny, mated to a bird hatched from a matt finished egg will produce daughters laying matt. There are occassional birds that lay semi-shiny, but I can't produce them from a shiny to matt mating. There is no link to colour, meaning any colour egg can be shiny. There is a seperate gene for translucent eggs, and it needs shiny to express. It also appears to be recessive, and doesn't show up on a matt egg. Translucent shiny eggs are lovely, grin. Translucent and shiny are not linked, and breed true if the family carries both. Matt eggs with two hits of translucent have the occasional translucent spot that shows up only on candling. Some birds carry yet another gene for a chalky covering on their eggs, and it can go on OVER whatever else is there. You need to breed that out altogether. Colour enhancing genes can make the colour more saturated, deeper. You need to breed out the BROWN enhancing genes, leaving the blue ones. Just set the bluer ones, as always, and it happens on its own. Translucent eggs hatch better, no idea why.


Shiny Translucent blue eggs is NOW a "MUST HAVE" thing for all of us... cry


Edited by Marvin (01/24/13 07:45 AM)

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#107974 - 01/24/13 07:22 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
Bushman Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
J. - could you explain what you mean by translucent - and maybe put up a photo of one? Are the shells thinner, and that is why the hatchability is better? Also, I don't find matt in my dictionary - do you mean matte?


Edited by Bushman (01/24/13 07:26 AM)
_________________________
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#107978 - 01/24/13 07:46 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Bushman]
Marvin Offline
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Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Bushman
J. - could you explain what you mean by translucent - and maybe put up a photo of one? Are the shells thinner, and that is why the hatchability is better? Also, I don't find matt in my dictionary - do you mean matte?
I believe the "Translusent" trait can only be seen when candeling the eggs, BUT it gives the shiny blue eggs a nicer all around tone

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#107982 - 01/24/13 11:25 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Bushman]
ssc Offline
Chicken

Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 83
Loc: uk
Originally Posted By: Bushman
J. - could you explain what you mean by translucent - and maybe put up a photo of one? Are the shells thinner, and that is why the hatchability is better? Also, I don't find matt in my dictionary - do you mean matte?

Oxford English Dictionary - definition of matt

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#107983 - 01/24/13 11:41 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: ssc]
Bushman Offline
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Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: ssc
Originally Posted By: Bushman
J. - could you explain what you mean by translucent - and maybe put up a photo of one? Are the shells thinner, and that is why the hatchability is better? Also, I don't find matt in my dictionary - do you mean matte?

Oxford English Dictionary - definition of matt


I guess its time to update my 1989 Websters. I found it spelled three ways, mat, matt, and matte, each having two or more meanings. Okay, I come here to learn and learn I did.


Edited by Bushman (01/24/13 11:46 AM)
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
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#108021 - 01/25/13 04:22 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Bushman]
Jocelyn Offline
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Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1467
Loc: Canada
Here is a matt finished egg with translucent spots. As Marvin said, it only shows up when you candle the matt ones. The shiny ones look like fine porcelaine. It does improve the blue look, and the hatch rate. It apears to be structural, not thinner shells.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

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#108023 - 01/25/13 05:01 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
ssc Offline
Chicken

Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 83
Loc: uk
Some years ago when I was speaking to an experienced CLB breeder she told me never to set the "spangled" eggs as they wouldn't hatch. What is your experience with hatchability?

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#108025 - 01/25/13 06:38 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: ssc]
Jocelyn Offline
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Registered: 08/26/02
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Loc: Canada
The hatch rate on the translucent matt ones is better than average, but as I select against them, I can't say how much better. The shiny translucent ones hatch better than 90 percent. It might have nothing to do with that though. I had a raccoon killdown and had to mate my UK type araucanas to APA araucanas and quechuas. It could be the outcross that made the real good hatch rates. I am only now selecting to get them back to their respective phenotypes. When things warm up and the girls in the bus start laying agin, I'll post a photo of the shiny translucent ones. It is cold now, wind chill of minus 34 to minus 36, degrees C.,and the bus has no heat.

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#108026 - 01/25/13 06:47 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
ssc Offline
Chicken

Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 83
Loc: uk
Yuck ..... that sounds COLD shocked

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#108046 - 01/25/13 06:05 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Jocelyn
The hatch rate on the translucent matt ones is better than average


Mrs. Jocelyn do you believe a sating egg layer "could" be hiding the recessive shiny egg trait?

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#108073 - 01/26/13 12:05 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Marvin]
ssc Offline
Chicken

Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 83
Loc: uk
I have some Silver Spangled Appenzeller Spitzhauben they lay quite shiny and translucent white eggs, and are good layers but the eggs are smaller than I would like. I was wondering about crossing them to something to produce a larger egg without loosing the look and feel of the egg, and the egg producing quality

I love the look of them but if a cross could produce somthing pretty and be a sexlinked cross of some sort that would be even better.

Any suggestions as to what might be a good mix with them. I currently have a quartet.

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#108086 - 01/26/13 10:55 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: ssc]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Missouri
I really have a lot of differences in my eggs. It's not been the priority to work on yet but as my other qualities are coming along, that is up there on the list of to-do's. I've had some so dense that candling is futile, and some nearly transparent and everything in between so I need to set some goals there for sure.

A few are chalky looking as well but some are shiny. I think I may have one of every type....

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#108150 - 01/28/13 06:41 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Smooth Mule]
Jocelyn Offline
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Registered: 08/26/02
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Loc: Canada
If you have a hen setting on a nest with some matt eggs and some shiny eggs, you could mark the chicks before they hatch and then leg band them when they are a few days old. That way, you can try breeding the satin ones together and see what you get. I don't know what you will get. I'm going to lock up a hen in the spring who hatched from a shiny translucent egg and see what she herself lays. Anyway, to mark chicks before they hatch, you will need a 1/2 cc syringe, some rubbing alcohol (isopropyl), some food colour, a clean cloth, some matches and a small candle. You will also need a knife with small blade and a sharp point, like the smallest blade on your pocket knife. If you are marking the eggs in the barn where fire is an issue, you'll need a small tin can with water in the bottom. When you are sure the hen is going to set, which means to hatch her eggs, check them and put a big X on both sides of any matt ones. Since they are a little rough, the X doesn't come off. Write down the date and wait 12 days. When the unborn chick is 12..or even 15 days old, boil up your syringe to sterilize it, let it cool and load it with food colour, avoiding red. Then clean the side of the egg with the alcohol and clean cloth, clean the knife too. Press the point of the knife against the egg and rotate it to grind a tiny hole in the shell just a bit up from the small end. Slip the needle in the hole, being carefull not to hit the chick, and unload the food colour. Light the small candle and wait for a drop of wax to melt. Drip the wax on the hole and wait a few seconds for it to cool. then press it down with your thumb to get a good seal. Drop the match in the water, and give the egg back to the hen. Repeat, using different colours of food dye, if you have some eggs of different colours. Go to the house and write down what colours you used, in case the hen eats the shells when the chicks hatch. Momma will look at them a little funny when they hatch blue or green, but she will still raise them and the colour will last several days...giving them time to get their feet under them so you can band them without slowing them down. When they grow up, you'll have your answer. I have a hen and a cock that hatched from shiny eggs, full siblings, and ZI'm going to see what the hen lays, and if it's matt, like it has been with other hens in the past, I'll try hatching from her with her brother. If it's single gene, about a quarter of the hens from that mating should lay shiny. Wish me luck, grin

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#108179 - 01/28/13 11:20 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
Appyjumpindaze Offline
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Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 286
Loc: MO
I have some Java eggs right now. I thought the one was porus, since it looked like it had darker splotches on it and when candled, looked thinner in those areas.

It looks like, from reading this, that that hen carries the transparency gene? Does it take two copies to show any transparency or will two copies make the entire egg uniformly transparent?

One of my other black hens lays shiny eggs. So now, I need to band those chicks and bred them together!

I have also heard that roosters carry the egg genes of their mothers, so breeding a roo that hatches out of a shiny egg to a hen that lays shiny eggs, should give me more shiny egg layers, correct?

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#108180 - 01/28/13 11:22 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
Appyjumpindaze Offline
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Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 286
Loc: MO
Jocelyn: an easier way to band chicks it to use pedigree baskets when they hatch and wing band them before you put them all together. Each band has a different number, so you mark which chick come from which egg. They are also nice since you never have to worry about having to change leg bands.

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#108181 - 01/29/13 01:40 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
SilverSilkie Offline
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Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By: Jocelyn
The shiny trait is recessive, so if you don't have it, you need to bring it in. Many araucanas have lost that trait as folks graded up from whatever they could get. The matt finish is prevalant in Continental stocks and appears absent in South American stocks and some of the Asian stocks. So, got any Silkies? How about an araucana who hatched from a shiny egg? The shiny eggs appear so much more saturated, when they are actually about the same colour.
I must say, I likle it myself, grin.


Hello all and in special Jocelyn (for your demand "So, got any Silkies?").
Yes, I got any Silkies and they produce different tonalities of eggshells :


Together with a friend who breed Araucana & Lakenvelder we intend to bring in the blue egg trait into the Silkies.
Since I breed only Silver Silkies (Silver Quail black heads) we first cross a male Lakenvelder to a female Araucana to can become Silver daughters (with S/-) and all other genes we need in heterozygous (eb, Co, cha, Mb, Et, O, P ...) with such a daughter we can cross to a Silkie male to bring in the other needed genes Pti, Cr, id+, Fm, h, R ... along with again S, eb, Co, cha, Mb, Et, P.

-Now I read O is linked to P in the Araucana (it inherit together) so in the first cross Lak. X Ara. all roosters with P/p+ are also O/o+ (when the Araucana hen was O/O), is that correct ?
-When we become chicks from that F1 X Silkie (which have Walnut (Pea & Rose combed) ) will this linkage of "O" from the Araucana (O,P) get on to the "P" of the Silkie crosses ?
-Is there more to take into consideration (than the linkage O,P in roosters to be sure also they carry "O") to become Silkies with azzurro eggs since we shall must make brother X sister backcrosses to become again the Silkie traits ?

Thanks in advance for any more indications.

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#108183 - 01/29/13 03:59 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: SilverSilkie]
Jocelyn Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 1467
Loc: Canada
Appyjumpin I noticed Marvin hatches under hens, and I also sometimes hatch under hens. Dyed chicks makes this segregation of chicks from different eggs easy when under Momma hen. I do hatch some chicks in the house, but I don't wing band as I have had predators chase banded birds into the bushes and the band may tear out when caught on a bush. The wing heals, but it's never as strong. Mine have to roost 9 feet up, well, 3 meters actually, and escape foxes. I also am a bit short on seperate brooders as I have a hatchery and hatch whater eggs my customers bring. Each person's little birds must be in their own brooder box. Sometimes I almost run out of boxes.

SilverSilkie, yes pea comb is linked to blue eggs. It's not a total link, meaning that about 5 percent of the time a bird with a single comb lays blue or a bird with a pea comb lays brown. Still, 95 percent is good, and yes, you can select your males that way. Be aware that 5 percent of the time you will get surprises, but otherwise it works great. Blue eggs silkies sound great. If you want a clear blue, use silkie hens who lay light cream eggs, or at least, the lighter of what you have. Since you don't have any chalky eggs in the ones pictured, you can use silkies with the shiniest eggs and get that trait too. What do Belgian breed standards call for as a comb type in silkies? If you actually need rose, that 5 percent surprises will be usefull, as single combed blue laying hens can be crossed to rose combed silkies and still give rose combed chicks. I would love to see pictures when you are part way along in your project. smile

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#108184 - 01/29/13 04:25 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Jocelyn]
SilverSilkie Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belgium
Originally Posted By: Jocelyn

SilverSilkie, yes pea comb is linked to blue eggs. It's not a total link, meaning that about 5 percent of the time a bird with a single comb lays blue or a bird with a pea comb lays brown. Still, 95 percent is good, and yes, you can select your males that way. Be aware that 5 percent of the time you will get surprises, but otherwise it works great. Blue eggs silkies sound great. If you want a clear blue, use silkie hens who lay light cream eggs, or at least, the lighter of what you have. Since you don't have any chalky eggs in the ones pictured, you can use silkies with the shiniest eggs and get that trait too. What do Belgian breed standards call for as a comb type in silkies? If you actually need rose, that 5 percent surprises will be usefull, as single combed blue laying hens can be crossed to rose combed silkies and still give rose combed chicks. I would love to see pictures when you are part way along in your project. smile


EU Silkies need to have a "Walnut comb" which is a combination of Pea- and Rose-comb (along with modifiers He+ (Rough) & hel (Smooth)), can be in different combinations (P/P, R/R or P/P, R/r+ or P/p+, R/r+ or P/p+, R/R) ...

My project friend did a first attempt for crossing Lak. X Ara. but became only this het. Silver rooster :

photos of my project partner


We will cross again now in February to become Silver hens (S/-) with the other het. genes needed to start upp our project with.

Thanks Jocelyn for your great information :-)

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#108193 - 01/29/13 10:21 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: SilverSilkie]
Smooth Mule Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Missouri
Are there no silver Araucana's for you to use? I have both a silver pullet and cockerels. Is that the only reason for crossing to the Lakenvelder?

Your project is something similar to something I wondered about a few years back, making a silkied feathered Araucana with the Araucana type but the silkied feathering. I never tried it but it's always been something I wondered about but I wasn't particular to color, just wanted to add the feather type.

My original plan was to use an Araucana rooster over a Silkied hen then pullets back to the rooster and cockerels back to the silkied hen then cross the chicks back to each other from that last cross in an effort to sort out the best Araucana types with pea comb that also was silkied. The best pullets back to an Araucana rooster and the best cockerels to another Araucana hen then cross repeat the process through selection until there were some passable young adults to breed to each other and I figured that I had a lot to learn before attempting this so I dropped it. I still think they would be nice.

It would seem that adding the blue egg color will be difficult unless you have silkies that lay white eggs, else they will all lay green.



Edited by Smooth Mule (01/29/13 10:30 AM)

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#108199 - 01/29/13 10:56 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Smooth Mule]
Appyjumpindaze Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 286
Loc: MO
Now that I have seen this, the idea is bouncing around in my head. If I bred Javas (brown egg layers) to Games (white egg layers) and cross those until I get white layers, I could then cross those birds with blue layers to get more blue layers.

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#108200 - 01/29/13 11:40 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Smooth Mule]
SilverSilkie Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belgium
Yes I know crossing first to Lakenvelder will give a longer path but are a few reasons for this :
-I can't find silver Araucana's (for now)
-the Lakenvelder have Co, cha, S & id+ (which have also my Silkies)
-my Silkies not produce pure white eggs
-we are 2 to do this project with a passion for those 3 breeds
-bringing all this theory of genes into practice should be much instructive
-the path to the goal is more important than the goal itself

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#108203 - 01/29/13 12:05 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: SilverSilkie]
Smooth Mule Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Missouri
I thought that must be the case but didn't know that Silver in Araucana's in Europe were rare. If we weren't so far apart, I have a silver columbian Araucana pullet that is double tufted and rumpless that would fit your needs but then her legs are green and other issues would not match your requirements.

Definitely keep the thread going. I love the threads that have a happy ending smile

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#108208 - 01/29/13 01:18 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Smooth Mule]
SilverSilkie Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belgium
Thanks for your appreciation. The green legs of your Silver Araucana wouldn't be a problem since Silkies have Fm and id+.
I surely keep you informed about any progresses since it have already a happy start smile


Edited by SilverSilkie (01/29/13 01:47 PM)

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#108209 - 01/29/13 01:30 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: SilverSilkie]
Smooth Mule Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Missouri
I am just happy all over today myself. I have been trying to get a decent start of Barred Holland chicks and I have 10 lovely, well feathered chicks, 2 cockerels and 8 pullets, that arrived a few minutes ago by post from New York.

Be sure to take good photo's. I can't tell you how much photo's have helped me over the years to really study things. A great camera for really good close ups is a must. You may not even give a second thought so some of the photo's until years later. And, catalog the photo's for future references....... and for sharing

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#108210 - 01/29/13 01:39 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Smooth Mule]
SilverSilkie Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belgium
smile congrats with your (Holland) newbies.

We will make photos in every stage.


PS I sended you an PM

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#108270 - 02/01/13 07:00 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: SilverSilkie]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3876
Loc: Denmark
I've just read that the blue egg is due to endogeneous avian virus

Quote:

The insertion was also found in another Chinese blue-shelled breed and an American blue-shelled breed. In addition, we found that the insertion site in the blue-shelled chickens from Araucana is different from that in Chinese breeds, which implied independent integration events in the blue-shelled chickens from the two continents, providing a parallel evolutionary example at the molecular level.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23359636


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#108276 - 02/01/13 09:48 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Wieslaw]
Smooth Mule Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Missouri
Interesting... hard to grasp with my limited understanding but I get it, in general that is.
Thanks for posting. I'll file it away and at some point in the future, I'll look at it again and go "Ahhhh Ha!

I love those moments, rare and sweet

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#108282 - 02/02/13 08:01 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Smooth Mule]
Mike_H Offline
Feather

Registered: 11/08/11
Posts: 33
Loc: Texas
Smooth Mule
I too have been thinking about getting some Barred Hollands for some time now. Do you know if Hollands are one of brown egg suppressing white egg layers?

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#108285 - 02/02/13 11:49 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Wieslaw]
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
I've just read that the blue egg is due to endogeneous avian virus

Quote:

The insertion was also found in another Chinese blue-shelled breed and an American blue-shelled breed. In addition, we found that the insertion site in the blue-shelled chickens from Araucana is different from that in Chinese breeds, which implied independent integration events in the blue-shelled chickens from the two continents, providing a parallel evolutionary example at the molecular level.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23359636



Help me out a little here. Isn't it possible one "evolved" from the other? I mean how can anyone be really certain when it comes to historical science as opposed to observational science? Further, all American blue egg chickens are derived from South American "Araucan" stocks, so why would there be differences in the blue shell genetics of birds from the two continents? In short, I have to take that study and its conclusions with a grain of salt.


Edited by Bushman (02/02/13 12:11 PM)
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

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#108286 - 02/02/13 11:50 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Mike_H]
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Mike_H
Smooth Mule
I too have been thinking about getting some Barred Hollands for some time now. Do you know if Hollands are one of brown egg suppressing white egg layers?


Hollands were developed as a red earlobed, white egg laying fowl. But most folks who have raised them will tell you the eggs are not usually chalk white, but slightly tinted.
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

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#108287 - 02/02/13 12:01 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Bushman]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3876
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Bushman
Help me out a little here. Isn't it possible one "evolved" from the other? I mean how can anyone be really certain when it comes to historical science as opposed to observational science?


Basically, it is possible, and nobody can be certain, unless the difference between them is of such a character, that it is very improbable(like totally different sequence or what do I know). As far as historical science is concerned, I do not recall any reliable sources that could document a connection between the two.


By the same principle, one could question the theory of origin of the yellow leg gene from other species. Why could it not develop just by a mutation?

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#108288 - 02/02/13 02:26 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Wieslaw]
Tufty Offline
New Egg

Registered: 05/22/11
Posts: 7
Loc: OR
The paper identifying the blue egg gene was just published last week by a group in China. Several members of the Araucana Club provided blood samples to compare with the two breeds of indigenous Chinese blue egg-laying chickens, so we are very excited to finally have some interesting results! I know that the several of the authors have extensive experience in comparing different breeds of chickens and tracing relationships, so they are very qualified to make the conclusion that the Araucana mutation and the Chinese mutations were independent events. Here is a quote from the paper:

Quote:
http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1003183#ack

"Interestingly, the insertion sites in Araucana are different
from that in the two Chinese blue-shelled chickens. The break
point for EAV-HP insertion in blue-shelled Araucana is located at 23 bp upstream to that in the two Chinese breeds (Figure 3C). We sequenced the junction sites in homozygous blue-shelled chickens of Araucana (n= 5), Lushi (n= 5) and Dongxiang (n =5) and confirmed the insertion sites in Dongxiang and Lushi are the same but different from that in Araucana.

We also typed 21 SNPs in genomic region of SLCO1B3 in
multiple breeds of blue-shelled and non-blue-shelled chicken
breeds. It is obvious to see that the EAV-HP insertions in blueshelled chickens from the two continents were embedded in two distinguished different haplotypes (Table S3), which supports independent integrations accounting for the blue shelled phenotypes.


As for the yellow legs, I wrote an article on this for the Araucana Club of America newsletter, and here is my explanation:

Quote:
So how did the scientists trace the origin of the gene for yellow skin to the grey junglefowl? They did it by first comparing white skinned and yellow skinned chickens. If the trait for yellow skin had simply come from a mutation in the gene for white skin in chickens, then you would expect that the genes for white and yellow skin would be pretty much the same in their DNA sequences except for the mutation. However, this wasn’t the case, as the DNA sequences were quite different. This led the scientists to look at the DNA sequences for yellow skin in the grey junglefowl and Ceylon junglefowl. They discovered that the DNA sequence for yellow skin from the grey junglefowl was a very close match to the DNA sequence for yellow skin found in chickens. This led them to conclude that the gene for yellow skin in chickens came from the grey junglefowl. How long ago did this happen? Probably fairly early after chickens were domesticated, because yellow skin is found widely distributed around the world.


Rosalyn Upson

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#108290 - 02/02/13 02:47 PM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Tufty]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3876
Loc: Denmark
Thank you Tufty for your exhaustive explanation.

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#108303 - 02/03/13 06:41 AM Re: Blue Eggs ? [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2909
Loc: Australia
I thought you would have posted the following for this thread (as Henk mentioned):

An EAV-HP Insertion in 5' Flanking Region of SLCO1B3 Causes Blue Eggshell in the Chicken.
Full Paper
Quote:
Blue eggshell color exhibits an autosomal dominant inheritance and eggs laid by homozygotes are a darker blue than those from heterozygotes (Figure 1A).


Figure 1: Photos of homozygous O/O, heterozygous O/o+ and o+/o+ wild-type
* This was for Dongxiang chickens.
------------------
Mind you, I would love to learn more about the biology of the EAV-HP insertions with the blue eggshell gene (SLCO1B3) (occurred in both Chinese & American blue eggshell alleles), eg whether it is unusual or not for endogenous retroviral insertions (& inverted) to strike multiple times (independently) on the same gene.

There is a close linkage to O & P loci of another endogenous viral element, ie ev1. Bartlett et al. (1996) with linkage test breeding used Araucana (P & O) x White Leghorn (with ev1), ie the Araucana were without ev1.

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