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#108225 - 01/30/13 12:06 AM Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams
Appyjumpindaze Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 285
Loc: MO
I am a very visual person and there seems to be a huge lack of visual critiques of Dutch Bantams. People seem to be able to tell me that there is DUTCH and not-Dutch, but not really why.

So I did as someone suggested and trolled old threads to see if I could find out. I managed to find a few that had some pictures critiqued and I did my best to relay that onto the photos themselves. A lot of the images posted for critique, never really were, though, so I did my best to compare them to the images of birds people said were good. Please forgive me if I used wrong terms or made mistakes. The images that were posted by people were sited, as I do not want to claim the images as mine. If the bird is yours and you want it removed, please let me know and I will.



BLB cockerel, he is standing a little upright, so is not showing his best profile. He is a really nice Dutch type. Judges in the US do not know about the red line--our variety Standard language is not really accurate and color variarions are rarely mentioned. Standards lump most all colors the same for all breeds, and this just isn't accurate. Our Light Brown Dutch are not the same as the Light Brown Leghorn, that the standard calls for....it was just arbitrarily assigned, as Patrijs of Holland was not accepted in the US, as it is in the UK and other countries.


The Cream Light Brown cockerel,crowing, was not in good plumage, so not easy to judge at this time, not a show/breeding prospect from what you see here--the kind of selection examination that must be done with every hatch--and they must grow a few months to display best features. Aside from a few bits,like comb and earlobes, he is DUTCH, just is not displaying even his best in this picture.



This bird is a nice Dutch, but certainly is showing minor bits that if he moved around, might look better to our eyes. His wings are not swept back under him, so look little short and low, but he is in a "picture box" and may have felt pushed together. His sickles might rise above his top tail feahers, if he moved about, or he might carry the tail feathers a bit lower (fanned Down, not Up). Comb points are rather thin.

And my "How to spot a fake" series.







As I recall, these birds were purchased as Dutch at a Sale (BEWARE of SALES and SWAP MEETS). They are all mixed, cull OEGB or nothing but mixed Banties. They look like rejects from crossbred color-breeding exercises--attempt to create new colors????Ughh


Edited by CJR (01/30/13 11:03 AM)

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#108226 - 01/30/13 12:16 AM Re: Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams [Re: Appyjumpindaze]
Appyjumpindaze Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 285
Loc: MO
And now based on this new knowledge, I will say that these birds are either not Dutch, or very poor Dutch. Hard to see at the odd angle, but they look too tall, bad tails and backs, and only a few look to have the correct ear color. Am I correct?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dutch-Bantam-Hat...=item2a287ecb76

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#108227 - 01/30/13 12:25 AM Re: Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams [Re: Appyjumpindaze]
Appyjumpindaze Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 285
Loc: MO
I might be over analyzing things now, but to my eye, at this point, this hen's back seems to be to 'angle-y'. Not like a good rounded 'U'. Am I correct?



Comb is really poor, do not breed from one like this--the cockerels will suffer. Her back is not too long, just is not showing a deeper cushion, which will soften the round curve and still she is scruntch down a bit and lifting head and neck might make the back very nice. Her wing is too high, here, and her legs look a little bit long, as we see her--might look better if she was on the ground?? Both wings and legs might meld into "better" if she was not balancing on the post?

And this rooster's stance seems more like a Serama.



Have you taken a picture of a horse's head CLOSEUP from the front. The tail is distorted by the angle of the photo. He is not perfect, but is DUTCH and might surprise you in a different pose. Still-- as a picture,--could choose better one for example to learn to judge a Dutch.

This one's back seems too long and the comb is all wrong. Wrong ears too. But am I right about the back?



This is an BBRed Old English Game--and not to their Standard, either.......
back shape is not too long for a Dutch, but IS for an OEGB! Could comment a whole page about this bird and won't! Would rather talk about DUTCH. CJR





Edited by CJR (01/30/13 11:29 AM)

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#108228 - 01/30/13 12:26 AM Re: Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams [Re: Appyjumpindaze]
Appyjumpindaze Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 285
Loc: MO
This one's back also seems long. His top tail feather is above his top sickle feather, and he looks to be too tall. Yes?



His back is nicely rounded and not too long. Our Standard says SHORT, and Dutch are short backed, COMPARED to many bantam breeds: starting with some, in the ABA STandards book: Ancona, Buckeye, Buttercup, Campine, Faverolle, Hamburg, Leghorn,on and on. He may be a bit tall, and if his wing tips were still low, but swept back under the tail, his shanks would be a little too long?? Nice comb would be correct, if blade was UP and not following the back of the head.

Uploaded that image via photobucket so it would show.


Edited by CJR (01/30/13 11:49 AM)

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#108233 - 01/30/13 10:15 AM Re: Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams [Re: Appyjumpindaze]
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
Please remember that you are analyzing the PICTURES of these birds, and NOT the actual birds.
It is not easy to get a bird to stand, be still, to get the very best of him/her, to have very part, recorded as "best". Unlike a statement in another COOP topic line, wanting to breed "peas in a pod"--they do not come that way- full brothers and sisters--the best we can breed, are not alike. You can always tell them apart, always want to "fix" something in the next repeat hatch of great ones.

At a show, the judge gets the bird to move around, to give it a chance to show its best features. You are on the way to finding "true" Dutch, birds that have enough very good TYPE features to be good breeders. During more than 25 years with Dutch (from crossbreds to imports), I have let my best birds go to those I hoped would show or carry on selection for the good of the DUTCH BREED. I have kept the birds that produced them, for a few years, then let them go, keeping sons and daughters that are good prospects to carry on improvements in one part or another. You win some and you lose some--but you keep them DUTCH Line breeding and good records are your best methods for a goal of "best yet offspring". It is a lifetime study and work of satisfaction to breed the best you can in any breed of fowl.... CJR ()

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#108234 - 01/30/13 10:39 AM Re: Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams [Re: CJR]
Appyjumpindaze Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 285
Loc: MO
Good point, Jean! Just like reading text, you cannot fully understand what is happening because you are missing a lot of data. In the case of text, the tone of voice and facial expressions of the speaker, in photos, other angles, bad lighting and the bird not showing it's best side.

I am trying, by looking at photos- not so much judge the individual birds, but learn what to look for in a good birds.

The photos with writing on them where based on what members had said about those pictures in old posts. The bottom three replys, I went and found other "Dutch" birds on the internet to see if I could spot faults in those pictures.

Could someone look and see if I judged those pictures right?

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#108235 - 01/30/13 11:52 AM Re: Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams [Re: Appyjumpindaze]
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
Here is a Splash Blue Cream Light Brown cockerel. Very nice bird.
_________________________
Fast Trucks , Fast Horses , Fast Women and Slow Chickens

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#108236 - 01/30/13 12:10 PM Re: Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams [Re: Rog]
Appyjumpindaze Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/23/13
Posts: 285
Loc: MO
OK, so this is what I see in that picture. Did I miss anything, or how would you correct my description?



You have "an eye" and a good label on the picture (wish I knew how to do that!)

IF the main sickle was curved rightaround the end of the tail feathers (that are wide and length of each tail feather gives a beautiful rounded shape) AND if the nice large, low carried wing' tips were swept under the lowest tail feathers, almost to touch under the body---breast a bit more prominent, it would be hard to fault this cockerel in any part or way!!!!!!!!And this is a picture! And still he could not win Best of Breed---there is no Standard for Splash DUTCH--cannot be, as no two males are alike--and some are just "clowns" with wild color and no real pattern. Females also vary in hackle color, color of flecks, on body feathers, wings and tails, but may be gorgoeus DUTCH and valuable breeding birds/

And yet, Splash are valuable as breeders. THIS birds should sire terrific BLB (or BCLB, if that is his heritage) WITH the best pullets/hens! This bird is a KEEPER!

He belongs to Piet Genugten, Okotoks, Alberta (recenly sent Piet a BCLB cockerel that will meld with his Splash breeding birds--and hope he will do well for him--may breed another?)


Edited by CJR (02/25/13 11:04 AM)

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#108237 - 01/30/13 12:12 PM Re: Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams [Re: Appyjumpindaze]
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
All of the Dutch pictured in this series would doubtless seem pretty good, If the FIRST check was the GOOD Dutch features. They may show us a better acceptable Dutch than focus on the poor points, that for us, may eliminate another bird totally. How I wish we could have our Shows judged by the SCORE method of Holland (never will happen, but you will find the best birds if you use it yourself--and they may not be the same as the US Judged winners at a show over here.) No matter, no bird is perfect and we must be pleased with the birds we keep, breed and show--and know WHY we feel that way! And always try for better in each part that we might "fix"! CJR
GOOD LUCK- with study ahead of obtaining your first birds. Rarer varieties are not a good start, you will become valued breeders and exhibitors.....Light Browns, Blue Light Browns, or Cream Light Browns, Blue Cream Light Browns may be varieties to find the best individuals to start with, as line breeding and good records of several of our breeders will give a strong start.

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#108238 - 01/30/13 12:28 PM Re: Screenshot Critiques of Dutch Bantams [Re: Appyjumpindaze]
Rog Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 775
Loc: Missouri
I wish I did own the Splash cockerel but he is owned and bred by a gentleman in Canada. Just want to keep the record straight.
_________________________
Fast Trucks , Fast Horses , Fast Women and Slow Chickens

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