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#108962 - 03/18/13 12:50 PM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: KazJaps]
Michel Offline
Bantam

Registered: 10/06/11
Posts: 54
Loc: Netherlands
Wow, nice project, thanks for sharing! Good luck with the rest of the puzzle.

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#108964 - 03/18/13 09:39 PM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: Michel]
Lanae Offline
Chicken

Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 123
Loc: Willits, California
Kazjaps,

What does the red splash look like? I have this roo.


I bred him to a dark red wheaten hen with Mahogany and hatched several pullets that are like this and one that has much more red.



I don't have a pic yet of the one with more red but she has probably double the amount of red.

My goal is to be able to get this color to be consistant, with the roosters looking like the one pictured. I have two other identical. And the pullets to look like these with more red like my other pullet, I will need to get a picture of. I have 4 pullets that I am taking back to their dad. Then I am going to take their pullets to the uncles.

I ask what a red splash is because I am wondering if this is what would be considered a red splash.

Lanae


Edited by Lanae (03/18/13 09:49 PM)

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#108965 - 03/18/13 11:03 PM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: Lanae]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
Thanks for the photos Lanae. That is an interesting result.
Did you get any normal coloured as well from this cross (was wondering if the roo was homozygous or heterozygous)? Seems like yours is a dominant gene too (unless the wheatens were carrying a recessive). What is the colour of the chick down, if not on wheaten (if not cream wheaten base)?

Have you made the opposite cross of spotted hen to Wheaten (or 'coloured') rooster? Was wondering if you are noticing any sex-linkage too.

--------------------------
Here is the red splashed white paper where the mutation was test bred (also has black/white photos):

A Colour Mutation in the Rhode Island Red Fowl.
Joseph P. Quinn
Journal of Genetics. Vol. 29, No. 1. 75-83. (April, 1934)
full paper
*Test crosses determined that the mutation was autosomal recessive. Day-old chicks were white with a red spot on the head. Red Splashed were tested with recessive white, with all F1 coloured. So rs was probably not a c locus mutation.

The following from Hutt, 1949 Genetics of the Fowl (p 200):
Quote:
Red-Splashed Whites, rs

A mutation that apparently restricts black even more than does the ee genotype and eliminates most red color as well was found by Quinn (1934, 1935) in Rhode Island Reds. Description. Chicks of that breed homozygous for this character were white or white with a red spot at the back of the head. They developed into adults that were predominantly white but had variable amounts of red in the plumage. When these were crossed with black fowls, all the chicks were black; but in the F2 and backcross (to red- splashed whites) there appeared not only white chicks and whites with red spots but also white ones with black head spots. These were apparently white at maturity, with a few black feathers.

Genetics.
This rather complete restriction of red and black is found in birds homozygous for an autosomal recessive gene, which Quinn designated as p. Since this symbol has been used for pea comb since 1906 (Appendix, page 547), it seems preferable to use some other notation in the present case, and rs (red-splashed) is therefore proposed. The gene resembles that for dominant white in that it apparently eliminates a greater proportion of the black pigment than of the red. How- ever, it was completely recessive in Quinns crosses. His F2 generation from the cross Jersey Black Giant X red-splashed white suggests that restriction of pigment by the rs rs genotype was equally effective in birds EE, Ee, or ee, although this was not specifically shown. In a later study, Quinn (1938) reported that in Rhode Island Red chicks with this mutation the majority of the unspotted chicks were males. Sexes were evenly divided in those with one red head spot, but of the 10 per cent of the population that had black head spots 78 per cent were females.


So the rs mutation was similar to Spotty in that it dilutes both eumelanin and phaeomelanin equally.


Edited by KazJaps (03/18/13 11:12 PM)
Edit Reason: typos

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#108966 - 03/19/13 12:56 AM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: KazJaps]
SilverSilkie Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 1125
Loc: Belgium
From featherside.com :

"The California Gray was developed around 1930 by Professor James Dryden. The goal was a dual purpose breed that laid large white eggs, as that was what the market wanted at that time. And he was also striving for a bird that would lay well for more than 2 years. The birds have a body type heavier than a Leghorn but not as "clunky" as a Rock. Unlike most of the white egg breeds, Grays are not flighty birds and are excellent winter layers in cold climates".

"When California Gray roosters are put on White Leghorn hens, a sex-linked hybrid, the California White, is produced. This hybrid is popular in the northern midwest and Canada. It is a white bird with occasional black feathers and can be feather-sexed at hatching".

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#108973 - 03/19/13 06:50 PM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: SilverSilkie]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
KazJaps,

Are birds in this coop thread from last year, post #102157 onwards part of this thread on going results?

seemed reminiscent of sex linked barring to Henk and I last year, good to see some more results, thanks for sharing.


Edited by Poultch (03/19/13 06:51 PM)

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#108978 - 03/20/13 09:26 AM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: Poultch]
Lanae Offline
Chicken

Registered: 02/02/12
Posts: 123
Loc: Willits, California
kazjaps,

Chick down is pure yellow, but not like wheaten or at least my wheaten chicks that are usually a golden or reddish yellow. They are a buttery primary yellow, almost like a splash chick yellow without the splotchyness if that makes sense. They feather in white and then at about 3 months will start getting the red spots. The red and white rooster pictured is has more red now as a 4 year old than he did when he was younger.

I believe that they carry the typical splash dilute gene ( the one that turns black to blue in one copy and black to white with blue spots in two copies) because I will find a blue feather or two in their under fluff, but none in the main feathers.

Lanae

Lanae


Edited by Lanae (03/20/13 09:30 AM)

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#109000 - 03/22/13 06:39 PM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: Poultch]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
Yes Poultch. The same birds (finally made a Spotty thread, instead of hijacking others wink )

It has been confirmed by another Pit Game breeder that the Spotty mutation is dominant sex-linked (spotty hen crossed with black rooster produced all black hens & all spotty roosters).

As you can imagine - I'm very glad that it is a sex-linked mutation as it dramatically limits the amount of test breeding needed to identify the Spotty locus. I was going to test I -Dominant White, then mo - mottled (exchequer) etc. Bl - Blue locus was ruled out from the first cross Blue Spotty x Black - produced blue spotty, black spotty, black & blue offspring, therefore Bl & Spotty are from 2 different loci.

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#115908 - 07/15/16 04:54 PM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
An update to these spotties....

I crossed a BC1 ER/e+ het. spotty rooster back to wild-type e+/e+ Modern Game Bantam (MGB) hens, & got some BC2 het/hemi spotties (plus e+/e+ BBRed, ER/e+ Brown Red segregates).

BC2 spotties (ckl e+/e+ het. spotty, pullet ER/e+ spotty)

------------------------

BC2 e+/e+ het. spotty male X 2 BC2 ER/e+ spotty hens:

9 chicks Hatched 30th Oct 2015

2 x e+/e+ wild-type (pullets)
2 x ER/e+ spotty
5 x e+/e+ spotty

BC2-F2 chicks:

Front view.....

* most of these died, only 2 chicks survived, one e+/e+ wild-type pullet, 1 ER/e+ spotty (inexperienced crossbred broody pullet let her chickens get chilled, after a heat wave turned to cold snap. She kept fighting with her broody sister in adjoining pen, neglected her chicks).

Was extremely lucky that the only surviving spotty chick turned out a homozygous spotty cockerel, ER/e+ (the reason for the setting, segregated my first homozygous spotty):

He is nearly pure white now. When younger, he had a bit of greyish tinge in one wing flight, rump patch, plus a tail feather had faint pseudo barring:


-------------------------------------------

* I also set a few other eggs from this breeding trio, but no more hom. spotty segregated, only 2 het. spotty ckls (1 e+/e+, 1 ER/e+ spotties), plus 1 ER/e+ spotty pullet.

The BC2-F2 e+/e+ het. spotty cockerel (5 weeks old) & ER/e+ spotty pullet (6 days old) when young:


Edited by KazJaps (09/28/17 07:37 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115909 - 07/15/16 06:29 PM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
Now, 2016, my goal is to test breed the spotty mutation on the B locus (ie see if the spotty mutation is an allele of the B locus).

Step 1 was to cross the BC2-F2 homozygous spotty cockerel with a e+/e+ B/- Crele hen (MGB), try to segregate a B/? & het. spotty cockerel.

BC2-F2 ER/e+ homozygous spotty male X e+/e+ B/- Crele hen:

7 chicks (all spotty) Hatched 11th July 2016

5 x ER/e+ spotty (2 dead)
2 x e+/e+ spotty (1 dead)

* 3 of these chicks found dead in the nest (out of shell, dry)

The four surviving chicks with Crele MGB mum (3 x ER/e+, bottom one e+/e+):


2 x ER/e+ chicks:

*Maybe the right chick is B - head spot?

1 x ER/e+, 1 x e+/e+ chicks:



Not sure if this ER/e+ greyish chick has a B spot (possibly not). All these ER chicks are in the range of spotty phenotypes I have hatched previously where there is no B.

The e+/e+ chick looks in between a e+/e+ B/B crele and a e+/e+ het. spotty (bit more buff than typical e+ het. spotty, & light /blurred top of head like e+ B/B).


As it has turned out very hard to tell between spotty only from spotty/barred, I've decided to do the reciprocal cross. Ie, cross an e+/e+ B/B Crele roo X ER/e+ spotty hen, as I think it would be much easier to tell these B/- pullet chicks (ER or e+) from the spotty/barred ckl chicks (ER or e+). Then I can have 100% certainty of the e+/e+ & ER/ het. spotty / barred chick phenotype.


Edited by KazJaps (09/28/17 09:22 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115991 - 08/11/16 08:43 PM Re: Aust. Pit Game spotty mutation [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
The hom. spotty roo X crele hen chicks, update (@ 4 weeks, 4 days old):

All 4 chicks:


3 ER/e+ chicks:


The palest ER (as day old) & the e+/e+ chick:


The darkest ER, dark grey on top of head, no obvious B patch (as day old):


So that is a surprise, the last chick appears to be a cockerel (& therefore should be het. spotty, het. B barred), yet as a day-old it didn't have an obvious B white spot on the head.
Ie, it's the following chick front left:


It's looking like the other 3 are pullets (although too early to be certain). I don't have a e+/e+ spotty hen, so hopefully this e+/e+ spotty chick is my first pullet.

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