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#109792 - 06/10/13 10:00 AM Timeline help, gene discovered.
a3riverschick Offline
Bantam

Registered: 11/23/12
Posts: 56
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Hi,
Please, can anyone tell me the year the eb; eWh; white and Silver genes were discovered? I can't find a timeline for this online. I need the info for a study I am doing on sun burning in old time Light Sussex.
Thanks!
Karen

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#109796 - 06/10/13 12:27 PM Re: Timeline help, gene discovered. [Re: a3riverschick]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Ditto for Ml please... wink

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#109799 - 06/10/13 05:26 PM Re: Timeline help, gene discovered. [Re: Henk69]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
Sturtevant, A. H. (1911) was the first to publish the sexlinked inheritance of silver and gold, and went part way to discover Co, with a reciprocal cross of Columbian Wyandottes and Brown leghorns


Edited by Poultch (06/10/13 05:27 PM)

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#109801 - 06/10/13 05:49 PM Re: Timeline help, gene discovered. [Re: Poultch]
a3riverschick Offline
Bantam

Registered: 11/23/12
Posts: 56
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
What I am trying to figure out is if Light Sussex breeders of the era 1900 thru 1935
would have known about the eb and eWh genes. And the difference between the Silver and the White gene.
Best,
Karen


Edited by a3riverschick (06/10/13 05:52 PM)

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#109805 - 06/10/13 08:16 PM Re: Timeline help, gene discovered. [Re: a3riverschick]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Then you would need to find anecdotal historical accounts, not scientific recognition of mutations.

As early Light Sussex development was mainly for production traits, (& developed from crossing UK landrace fowl with Asiatic & other imports), I suggest looking through historical poultry keeping books, see any references to chick down phenotypes & sex-linked crosses. They might not know the actual mutations, but might recognise the traits (eg, eb & eWh were not formally recognised by scientists until much later - 1950's, but poultry breeders would have recognised these chick downs much earlier).

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#109806 - 06/10/13 09:03 PM Re: Timeline help, gene discovered. [Re: KazJaps]
a3riverschick Offline
Bantam

Registered: 11/23/12
Posts: 56
Loc: Pennsylvania, USA
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Then you would need to find anecdotal historical accounts, not scientific recognition of mutations.

As early Light Sussex development was mainly for production traits, (& developed from crossing UK landrace fowl with Asiatic & other imports), I suggest looking through historical poultry keeping books, see any references to chick down phenotypes & sex-linked crosses. They might not know the actual mutations, but might recognise the traits (eg, eb & eWh were not formally recognised by scientists until much later - 1950's, but poultry breeders would have recognised these chick downs much earlier).

======================
Thank you KazJap! This is exactly what I was looking for!
"the traits (eg, eb & eWh were not formally recognised by scientists until much later - 1950's".
I have done all the research and read the books. Yes, I agree with all the above. What I was seeking was the dates the genes were discovered. Now that I have that, I know for sure the early breeders were not mixing or culling colors by gene name... but by color recognition.
Thanks again! I love this board! So many helpful poultry folk here!
Best,
Karen

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#109807 - 06/10/13 09:07 PM Re: Timeline help, gene discovered. [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Henk69
Ditto for Ml please... wink


From PB&G (1990)...

Ml first formally described by Moore & Smyth in 1971 (extracted from random breeding recessive white population, previously described by Jeffrey 1947)

Jeffrey, F.P. 1947. Plumage color genes in White Plymouth Rocks and White Wyandottes. Poult. Sci. 26: 526-528.

Moore JW, Smyth JR Jr. 1971. Melanotic: key to a phenotypic enigma in the fowl. J Hered. 1971 Jul-Aug;62(4):215-9.

-----------------------

Melanisers (apart from E locus) were noted from the 1920's on by Punnett, etc, by not formally described &/or named (except maybe Kimball, but these theories had errors).


Edited by KazJaps (06/10/13 09:11 PM)
Edit Reason: added ref.

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#109808 - 06/10/13 09:47 PM Re: Timeline help, gene discovered. [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Another note...

Early E locus allele name variations....

Wheatens:
- Retarded (no symbol) (Pease, extracted from Light Sussex)
- Yellowish White (ey) (MoreJohn)
- Wh (Wheaten) (Kimball)

- ey name later changed to "Recessive Wheaten" & Wh changed to eWh (Dominant Wheaten), by Brumbaugh & Hollander.


Brown:
e^p (Partridge) (Hollander) = eb Brown (Smyth)
- later recognised as the same mutation.

*also similar mutations e^s (Speckled) & e^bc (Buttercup), etc.

Columbian phenotype in earlier research was noted as "e", an allele of the E locus, but later found to be a mutation of another locus & named Co (earlier confusion due to epistasis of E to Co).

-------------------
N (Nigrum) (Davenport, 1909) = E today.

P.s., early ER symbol use (Lippcott, 1918) was not in reference to ER Birchen, but unrelated notation of blue phenotypes on E allele.

Eg,
E = "Extension of pigment" (black)
R = "Restriction"

Er Er = black
ER Er = blue
ER ER = splash

So "ER" was in reference to two mutations on different loci.

Much later Kimball did some testbreeding of Birchen & Brown Red phenotypes, & used the symbol ER again. But there were some discrepancies with his theories & therefore "ER" was not formally accepted at the time, but later Smyth et al. formally described the ER Birchen allele.

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#109814 - 06/11/13 10:49 AM Re: Timeline help, gene discovered. [Re: a3riverschick]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: a3riverschick
Hi,
Please, can anyone tell me the year the eb; eWh; white and Silver genes were discovered? I can't find a timeline for this online. I need the info for a study I am doing on sun burning in old time Light Sussex.
Thanks!
Karen


There is no white gene involved in columbian looking birds(just in case)

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#109817 - 06/11/13 03:59 PM Re: Timeline help, gene discovered. [Re: a3riverschick]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: a3riverschick
What I am trying to figure out is if Light Sussex breeders of the era 1900 thru 1935
would have known about the eb and eWh genes. And the difference between the Silver and the White gene.
Best,
Karen

many texts refer to the undercolour of both sexes and saddle stripping of the males, - from this you can deduce the e alleles which were segregating, but below both adult undercolour and hatch down is reported/discussed.

Dunn L.C. 1922.Inheritance of Plumage Color in Crosses of Buff and Columbian Fowls. The American Naturalist , Vol. 56, No. 644, pp. 242-255
http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdfplus/2456378.pdf?acceptTC=true

I found the above just by going through who cited Sturtevant in google scholar, this should help out in any other timeline queries you may have


Edited by Poultch (06/11/13 03:59 PM)

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