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#110745 - 10/08/13 11:00 AM Your thoughts- Please!
cyberd1 Offline
Chick

Registered: 07/12/12
Posts: 17
Loc: USA
I was wondering if I might receive a little feedback, regarding the below "quoted" text, which I found during my recent 'googling' chicken adventures! Apparently this new organization>"FGBA"(Florida Gamefowl Breeders Association – UGBA Affiliate) is creating this website, as a means of informing the general public, of it's gamefowl breeding intent. I have underscored one of the sentences, that I found a bit confusing... so 'what do you folks think'? Also, any
additional information, regarding the historical/genetic components of the original 'first' chicken would also be of helpful interest to me> And I thank you in advance!
_____________________________________________________

>"About FGBA...
This site’s purpose is to serve the members and educate the public. The members are a group who have deep cultural ties to animals, that’s history can be traced back 4000 years. There is evidence indicating this culture could date back 8000 years or more.
"The fighting cock was the original domestic chicken and the ancestor to all of today’s domestic chickens. Early history indicates that man originally kept the domestic chicken (the fighting cock), not for food, but for it’s beauty, power, courage and determination in combat. Today, these qualities are still prized."<

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#110748 - 10/08/13 11:50 PM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: cyberd1]
Foehn Offline
Administrator
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 1968
Loc: New Zealand
Sorry, I can't help you there. Apart from having seen pictures of these birds, I know very little about them or their history.

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#110750 - 10/09/13 03:37 AM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: Foehn]
jonnydot Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 298
Loc: australia
Interesting comment ,I would like to read their evidence of this ,I have always presumed that a domesticated form of a cross between the green and red jungle fowl were the originators ,these are both pheasants so I would again assume that domestication without some form of flight restrictive pen would be difficult .Throw me a link for the site if you can

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#110755 - 10/09/13 03:42 PM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: jonnydot]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Quote:
The fighting cock was the original domestic chicken and the ancestor to all of today’s domestic chickens



That is basically not true in my opinion. It was the RJF that was the first domesticated chicken.

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#110786 - 10/15/13 09:54 AM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: Wieslaw]
cyberd1 Offline
Chick

Registered: 07/12/12
Posts: 17
Loc: USA
Thanks for your thoughts! It appears, that the gentleman who had the idea of starting this site "FGBA"-(Florida Gamefowl Breeders Association – UGBA Affiliate), has not followed through, at least to this point in time- because the 'Link' does not exist!

Yes Wieslaw, I quite agree that his statement of:"The fighting cock was the original domestic chicken and the ancestor to all of today’s domestic chickens"> Would certainly indicate his lack of 'basic-genetic' knowledge, regarding the origin of today's domesticated chickens (including his so-called 'fighting cock')!
Laughable at best! laugh > But I do 'Thank You' all, for responding to my post! 'CyberDave'

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#110791 - 10/16/13 06:38 AM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: cyberd1]
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Wisconsin

Since none of us were present, I don't think anyone can be 100% sure. I understand the genetic mutation argument, but how can we be absolutely sure the Red Jungle Fowl is not just a domestic chicken that went feral several thousand years ago?
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

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#110842 - 10/22/13 11:51 PM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: Wieslaw]
kirsty4chickens Offline
New Egg

Registered: 10/22/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
[quote] That is basically not true in my opinion. It was the RJF that was the first domesticated chicken.


Hmmm this is something good to know.. but pardon my ignorance but what is RJF? :-)

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#110843 - 10/23/13 01:30 AM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: kirsty4chickens]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: kirsty4chickens
[quote=Wieslaw]
Quote:
That is basically not true in my opinion. It was the RJF that was the first domesticated chicken.


Hmmm this is something good to know.. but pardon my ignorance but what is RJF? :-)


Red Jungle Fowl.

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#110850 - 10/25/13 04:22 PM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
I have found two abstracts connected to the subject(without confirming it)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12927074

Quote:
Abstract
Published results were reassessed and original data are provided regarding the origin and relatedness of four postulated chicken breed lineages, egg-type, game, meat-type and Bantam, to each other and to the basic ancestral species of jungle fowls, Gallus gallus. A system approach was employed concerning the planning of the experiments. One element of the system approach is the choice of the breeds to be compared with G. gallus. These breeds were supposed to represent major evolutionary branches of chickens. Four experiments on genetic relationships were conducted using different estimation criteria including morphological discrete characters, body measurements, biochemical markers, and the activity of serum esterase-1. The greatest similarity was found between G. gallus and the egg-type breeds of Mediterranean roots and/or true Bantams. This fact might testify that the indicated chicken groups occupied earlier stages in the evolution from the wild progenitor to the present biodiversity of chickens in the world.




http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12927074


Quote:

The degree of similarity between chicken breeds of Mediterranean and Chinese origin, on one hand, and red jungle fowl (Gallus gallus), on the other, was determined with respect to 35 discrete morphological traits. The results confirm the similarity between Mediterranean breeds and the wild form of Gallus gallus, noticed by many authors, and demonstrate the considerable typological diversity of Chinese chicken breeds. As certain ancient Chinese breeds clustered with Mediterranean breeds and wild fowl, the conclusion was drawn concerning the existence in ancient times of a chicken originating in Asia but resembling the Mediterranean type. This fact and several archeological findings provide evidence that the archetypal domestic chicken was of the light egg type. Centers of the origin and formation of domestic chicken types proved to coincide with certain centers of the origin of cultivated plant varieties discovered by N.I. Vavilov.

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#110851 - 10/25/13 05:25 PM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: Wieslaw]
cyberd1 Offline
Chick

Registered: 07/12/12
Posts: 17
Loc: USA
Thank you Wieslaw! I really appreciate the additional information(links)- that you so kindly offered. Very helpful!

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#111206 - 12/27/13 05:28 PM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: cyberd1]
Theropod Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 12/23/13
Posts: 189
Loc: Missouri, USA
Most plausible to me is chickens were first optimistically taken as food but that became more reliable especially as some red jungle fowl populations adapted to living in close proximity to early agriculture efforts. The use in fighting likely covered shortly thereafter and was partially enabled by prior changes in behaviour enabling greater ease in handling. Outright wild birds were likely too flighty to handled and would have been difficult to keep confined for any length of time.

A key consideration is that interspecies hybridization involving grey jungle fowl also occured early in the domestication process.

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#111213 - 12/28/13 08:10 AM Re: Your thoughts- Please! [Re: Theropod]
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Wisconsin
I firmly believe there were 7 domesticated chickens that came off the ark with Noah. There very well could have been hybridization with jungle fowl either before or after the flood.
Certainly many of the mutations occurred subsequent to the flood.
Examples might be feathered shanks, crests, blue eggs, silkie feathering, e-locus changes, etc.
But mutations do have limits due to viability. We started with chickens and end with chickens (and hybrids).


Edited by Bushman (12/28/13 04:29 PM)
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

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