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#112404 - 03/18/14 11:56 AM DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm?
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
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Been a wild ride. Growing pains and things I thought to be true are getting dashed on the rocks. I hate that but struggle along.

Questions...questions about what e-series MDF is based on...questions about if c/c recessive white expresses Fm Fibromelanosis...not just id+ any more in the Booteds but Fm too....MDF needs dark shanks, but a red face....just what IS the right mix of genetics for that...Tollbunt...any other e-series past just ER Birchen?? Too many questions, not enough solid answers...

Begin...where...begin at the beginning and work this all through...ask the questions again, at the end of the postings. Wish this system allowed more photos per post but no matter, can do up several posts...

The one chicken breed I have always been gob smacked with are the Booted Bantams in the MDF (thousand of flowers) pattern variety. I finally got some in 2000 after waiting for two years from the breeder. Breeder got out of chickens and I gladly accepted what was left of their stock. Millie had won her class so a third party thumbs up evaluation on her. Brought in a MDF male from Halbach lines and away we went.




Bred them a few years and out pops a male and a female in white...what the? So of course, ask old stringman Gordon Ridler who was in his nineties at the time. I had already sent him a bunch of feathers from the MDF's, actual feathers so he could see the pattern and advise me on if what I had and was working with was decent. His first birds were the MDF Booted. Mr. Ridler had gotten them as a kid and we shared that mutual love for the dotty ones. I ask him about the two sports in white. His reply, "Well we liked to see a white now and again. It meant we had all the right "stuff" in the mix." "Good!," I think. Later I read in Dr. Clive Carefoot's "Creative Poultry Breeding" (page 116) that recessive white in a single dose makes for "bright hackled" birds with corresponding "robin-breasted" shoulders. I also gobble up Carefoot's reference and I quote:

"Carefoot (1979) demonstrated that the presence of a single c gene could be detected in a closed strain of very precisely coloured birds."

...

"Also the primaries usually have some white which is often more severely penalised by judges than the author feels is justified when one considers the reason for its presence - the brightness. In fact soundness versus brightness is the perennial problem facing the breeders of partridge Wyandotte males."


And how true that was!!

Three MDF hens




Each MDF female...










MDF Booted male




I so wish my timing had been better. Dr. Carefoot had only recently passed away...I would have LOVED to have exchanged letters with him. Dr. Crawford says he was a prolific writer and would have enjoyed hearing about my own experiences with a single dose of recessive white in my MDF Booteds. No matter.


Booted Bantams are one of the few breeds allowed and wanted to have vulture hocks. The MDF variety in the American Bantam Association Standard of Perfection is to have "SHANKS & TOES: Slaty blue;"




Got that...yah!


The Booted Bantam Whites, this variety is to have "SHANKS & TOES: White;"

I have heard that historically, the MDF and the White variety of the Booted Bantams were seen to be so different (I expect the different skin colours are to blame), that in Europe they were treated as completely separate BREEDS, never mind just different colour patterns or VARIETIES.

Sure makes a lot of sense...skin colour being different between the two varieties.

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112405 - 03/18/14 11:57 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
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The first White Booted Bantam sport...Nix...Latin for "snow."






Dr. Carefoot (page 116):

"The regular production of white sports is therefore inevitable and has to be tolerated if the production of the bright hackles and corresponding "robin-breasted" shoulders is desired. Of course, there was and always will be variations of brightness among the bright birds, due to relatively minor modifying genes."


So no problemo with the White sports, part of making decent MDF's.



Then I get contacted in the fall of 2007 by a fellow in the States that WANTS White Booteds very badly. He was thinking he would have to import them from Europe.

No worries we say, I take Nix who is a yard bird (much to her delight and the new found interested in her, much now to her utter distaste!) and confine her as a valued breeder with Koobey, a MDF Booted male. We want more Whites, we'll get on that.



Nix and Koobey - note the male has white shown here in his tail feathers!

I also collect eggs from the rest of our Booted flock. We produce seven white chicks in 2008...setting every single egg the Booteds produce that year. SEVEN and I note a particular trait has arisen...the dark shanks, the dark skin! Hey now...what IS that? So again, I talk to Ridler, I talk to Dr. Roy Crawford. I want to get this dark skin, dark shanks figured out...

White pullet, recessive white.




Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112406 - 03/18/14 11:58 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
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Here are the White feathered chicks produced in 2008;

1 Chick (natural hatch with brood Brahma mother) - April 4, 2008 - DARK skin




2 & 3 Chicks - June 11, 2008 - Second chick has DARK skin




3 Chick - June 11, 2008




4 Chick - July 22, 2008 - DARK skin (take MORE photos of dark skin...appears a bit lighter on soles of feet)








5 Chick - July 28, 2008 - DARK skin




4 5 6 Chicks - August 4, 2008 - chicks 4 & 5 are DARK skinned



Sixth chick




7 Chick - August 16, 2008




Chicks 1, 2, 4 and 5 chicks are DARK skinned and ALL FEMALES.

I talk to Gordon about the dark skinned white chicks. He suggests these will be females. I contact Dr. Crawford at the beginning of August...explain what is going on.

August 04, 2008:

"From your info, and from reference materials here, it seems most likely that your white chicks are recessive white (c/c). This because they are segregating out of colored parents. They cannot be dominant white (I/?) because that would require at least one of the parents to be dominant white from one or more dominant white parents. The only other well-known whites are the albinos - several different mutations including one we found at U of S - but pink eye is not apparent in your chicks. There may be some very rare situations leading to white and due to complex interactions of several different genes - of which more anon - but this is unlikely to be the situation in your case.

Wise old Mr. Ridler's comment that your whites are probably all female probably refers to the shank coloring. The various shank colors - white, blue, black in the presence of white skin (W) - and the series yellow, green, black due to presence of yellow skin (w) - are mostly all due to variants at the Id locus, which is sex-linked and can be used for autosexing. If this is so, then your day-olds with blue/black shanks could well be females. but you would have to know shank coloration of parents to be sure and to set up sex-linked matings accordingly. Your situation probably does not involve the blue-black pigmentation (fibromelanosis) of Silkies which colors the skin over the body and some of the internal organs.

Your observation that some of your aged Mille Fleurs have too much white is a good one. It is usual with the mottling gene (which puts the white on the MF feathers) to have increasing amounts of white with advancing age. Another thing to keep in mind is that a mild deficiency of amino acids at the time of new feather generating can result in white in tail feathers and elsewhere - as occurs in my precious Hungarian Yellows, males especially, that are fed on wheat and a lay supplement when I remember to add it. The same increase in white is usual in old muscovies, particularly the wild-type black ones.

If I am correct in suggesting that your situation involves recessive white - a bit complicated by the Id locus affecting shank colors - then your procedure should be relatively simple. Try to identify by pedigree breeding which of your Mille Fleurs are transmitting the white. Thereafter breed white to white and there should be 100% white in the progeny. Sounds simple but in fact it is a tedious task. We found a new albinism mutant at U of S in our Araucana line - albino chicks always female - so we test mated each Araucana male in the flock and eventually identified the one male that carried the new mutant. Mating him to his albino daughters yielded albino males and albino females as expected."


There, sounds like my guess of the Booteds having recessive white is correct. I know what dominant white in a single dose looks like, seen those as Red Pyles! Id+ as suggested by Gordon Ridler (dark skanked Booteds, he bet me the dark chicks would turn out to be girls) seems to be in play. OK...good...I see the reference to Fm not necessarily being relevant...more on that later.


In the meantime, fall approaches and I advise the fellow that wants the White Booteds...OK... ready to have the vet come by, do the tests and paperwork so we can export these White Booteds to him. He backs out. Yikes...

So I decide then and there...if I wanted a single dose of recessive white in my MDF's, I may as well take some of these White Booteds with dark shanks and use them purposely to breed into the MDF's. Not going to suit a show standard with dark shanks, but having the SAME colour as the MDF's would be good. So I began to work on those...whites with dark shanks and toes.

I kept the Whites I had that had white shanks and toes, these would be suitable as SOP compliant to the descriptions for the White variety. So no worries, Whites that comply to the SOP for the White variety in the Booteds and White feathered dark shanked Booteds for crossing into the MDF Booteds...awesome!

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112407 - 03/18/14 11:58 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
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Looking up the genetic recipe for Mille de Fleur, I expected either eb or eWh for e-series base (MCR1)...never paid a great deal of attention to the quailish colour pattern, the Egyptian eye makeup, the head V on the chick down. I am NOW and concluding that the MDF Booted's I have are based on duckwing e+

To me eb Brown and its grey slate down...in the adults I could see it as eb, imagine it...whatever.




But the chick down...that part I could NOT deny. They are duckwing...no denying it no more...

This one in October 2012...Hmm...




But this one in March of this year. Nope, cannot deny it no more...the birds NEVER lie...listen to what they have to tell us...this is DUCKWING!



The V shaped on the top of the head...heart shaped sweety.



The Egyptian eye liner slash...




I knew the chick was dark...lookit the eye lid is even dark.




And the legs...again dark...but look this time!




Yellowish tinge to the bottoms...I know, I know careful on the assessment of the shank colours TOO early...things like the egg yolk yellow cartenoids have to run thru the chick's system before we can fully assess REAL adult leg colour but interesting none the less!




A precursor to my questions regarding dark skin...this hen in 2011...she haunted me...but wasn't I suppose to be thinking id+...not Fm...but hmmm...




That mulberry face...so Silkie like of her...I looked but did not want to question what I had accepted to be correct...but then again...

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112408 - 03/18/14 11:59 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

So here are the photos I took this weekend...these photos of the 2011 hen and two MORE dark hens...two year olds now.

2011 hen the darkest




Dark shank




All three DARK hens







Vents are dark




Wing skin or armpit is dark




Chest skin is dark







The colour of the irises get me though...




All three of the dark skinned White Booted Bantam females. Have a l00k at the eyes!




Well they sure would make frightful Halloween booga booga BOO birds...frightful eyes...blood eyes...eek!


Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112409 - 03/18/14 12:01 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

I have a project in the works...to make Tollbunt variety. Mottled golden lace...but I see it based on ER...I believe I have e+ in the Booted and eWh or eb (or both) in the Chantecler bantam...but no ER...not even sure what the shank colour is suppose to be but should be OK in this I hope...but hope is in short supply...dark skin...haunts me.

This female




with this male (who is a MDF under his two doses of rec white).




I gotta get the e-series figured out before I really create a nightmare and cannot figure this out...


QUESTIONS...
OK...now back to the questions...questions I started out with.


What e-series MDF is based on...can it be based on duckwing, e+...??? Does it HAVE to only be eb or eWh...cause my whole line of MDF Booted Bantams, they don't have that chick down of eb or eWh at all....


Obviously c/c recessive white CAN expresses Fm Fibromelanosis...can't it...the birds don't lie but have I deciphered this correctly...have id+, yes for dark shanks but the Fm...is that what is making these hens dark every where else also?


I do not have just id+ any more but Fm too....Dr. Crawford asked me but sorta shrugged that off but I do think I have Fm in the mix of the Booteds...that has to be what explains the dark dark everywhere on the three hens....


What is the right mix of genetics to get the MDF Booted Bantam with blue shanks, but red face....id+ for dark shanks I suspect...this Fm is not right then...too much.


What e-series for Tollbunt--is it only ER Birchen...what shank colour is desired?


Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112410 - 03/18/14 12:13 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 495
Loc: Australia
To clarify, what are the shank colours of the parents (Koobey/Nix?)of the chick(s) that has dark skin (and did you keep note of the ratios of dark skin chicks relative to the rest of the hatch)?

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#112411 - 03/18/14 02:04 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Thank you for the reply. Much appreciated.

Originally Posted By: Htul
To clarify, what are the shank colours of the parents (Koobey/Nix?)of the chick(s) that has dark skin (and did you keep note of the ratios of dark skin chicks relative to the rest of the hatch)?


Not going to make you happy here... eek

While Koobey had dark shanks and Nix had white shanks...I never cared enough about the "project" past producing as many WHITE chicks as the season would allow for the fellow in the States. I personally saw the Whites as a "by product" to getting MDF's with brightness. I have grown fond of them now...but White chickens always seem to take time to "grow" on me.

Hind sight is 20/20.

Dr. Crawford's advice to track parents CAME on the day the sixth White chick hatched out.

In 2008, I went about setting any and all Booted Bantam eggs and never tracked the only pairing of Koobey & Nix to see what they produced. One would expect statistically that C/c and c/c to make more Whites than the carriers to carriers (C/c) by double...I suspect that Koobeys' dark shanks (id+/id+) would have produced daughters that were id+/- and Nix would not have contributed to any making of dark shanks....that is how I understand the inheritance of id+ but not my strong point...always learning. smile

All seven White chicks were hatched from the entire flock's contribution which does not help at all tracking if gender linked id+ was lurking in one of the males but hidden because he was Id/id+ and I believe then he would express shanks that were NOT dark...

Is Fm involved at all here or just id+ if only hens appear to be expressing this? I doubt that question can be answered though...


Current Booted Bantam flock as of today:

One chick hatched in March, dark skin and shanks (yellow bottoms) with photos already pictured--gender unknown.

Four hens White feathered, no dark shanks but one I consider "pinto" body skin coloured as in some bluish/dark pigment in wing and definately running along chest on both sides. Have to be careful determining skin colour as veins look very purply/blue dark and can make you think "darker" skinned.

Three hens White feathered with dark shanks and skin (pictured) already in my previous posts.

Four males White with white shanks but one has that Pinto skin pattern going on in the skin. Face, wattles & combs on all White males are red.

In the MDF (all have red faces, combs and wattles); three hens with less than stellar coloured shanks, shanks ARE slightly coloured blue but not what I consider decently good and solid for "slaty blue."

One MDF male, again, shanks are blue but very light...would like to beef up the MDF on towards slaty blue but really don't want to add "mulberry face" to the MDF's, just darken the light blue in shanks to SOP "slaty blue."


Any thoughts on what pair matings might reveal useful data now?


I would like to make slaty blue a given in the MDF's shanks and toes but if Fm is in the flock, I expect this is what is making faces, combs, wattles and the skin dark and would decidedly NOT like to add mulberry faces to the MDFs?


I know you have an interest in recessive white and Fm and if I can set up some pair matings to contribute to your knowledge, that would be FUN!

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112412 - 03/18/14 06:52 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT


Obviously c/c recessive white CAN expresses Fm Fibromelanosis...can't it...the birds don't lie but have I deciphered this correctly...have id+, yes for dark shanks but the Fm...is that what is making these hens dark every where else also?
C+/c and Id/id+ Fm/fm+ have Shown to produce Dark Shanks with Red face, while if you look very close you can see some Fm hints on the beak and eyes, but mostly goes unnoticed, to me c/c on the silkies is the ones that does this, some c/c on other birds dont do that..

c/c+ has shown me that it can even produce dark shanks even in the presence of Id/id+ and B/b+...

now those white birds clearly show c/c and Fm, I think they are also id+/id+

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#112413 - 03/18/14 06:56 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Marvin]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Here are two photos I took today of the White male Booted bantam with "pinto" markings.

Skin on wing (armpit) is partially dark; surrounded by uncoloured skin. I expect if he were NOT alive, I could pluck off feathers and find a mosaic of coloured and non-coloured areas.




Shank the same, top half of shank is darker (very, very light blue/purple). Light dark but still another colour. Leg is half/half.




Does this make this male id+/Id then? Or is Fm at play or...

Hope this helps explain what I mean by "Pinto."

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112414 - 03/18/14 07:00 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Marvin]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Marvin
C+/c and Id/id+ Fm/fm+ have Shown to produce Dark Shanks with Red face, while if you look very close you can see some Fm hints on the beak and eyes, but mostly goes unnoticed, to me c/c on the silkies is the ones that does this, some c/c on other birds dont do that..

c/c+ has shown me that it can even produce dark shanks even in the presence of Id/id+ and B/b+...

now those white birds clearly show c/c and Fm, I think they are also id+/id+


Thank you for the input...must digest this but ask, what hints at Fm being expressed? What or where are the dark pigments telling YOU Fm is expressed? I am trying to decipher which is attributed to Fm and not to id+. Learning...

Thank you,

Tara

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#112415 - 03/18/14 07:08 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
Heel low:

Here are two photos I took today of the White male Booted bantam with "pinto" markings.

Skin on wing (armpit) is partially dark; surrounded by uncoloured skin. I expect if he were NOT alive, I could pluck off feathers and find a mosaic of coloured and non-coloured areas.




Shank the same, top half of shank is darker (very, very light blue/purple). Light dark but still another colour. Leg is half/half.




Does this make this male id+/Id then? Or is Fm at play or...

Hope this helps explain what I mean by "Pinto."

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm


This male clearly shows Id/id+ and Fm/fm+ C+/C+

here check at my male of Fibromelanotic Native stock crossed with White leghorn..







here is him with Fibromelanotic sister(Fm/fm+ id+/-)

[/quote]


Edited by Marvin (03/18/14 07:13 PM)

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#112416 - 03/18/14 07:19 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
Originally Posted By: Marvin
C+/c and Id/id+ Fm/fm+ have Shown to produce Dark Shanks with Red face, while if you look very close you can see some Fm hints on the beak and eyes, but mostly goes unnoticed, to me c/c on the silkies is the ones that does this, some c/c on other birds dont do that..

c/c+ has shown me that it can even produce dark shanks even in the presence of Id/id+ and B/b+...

now those white birds clearly show c/c and Fm, I think they are also id+/id+


Thank you for the input...must digest this but ask, what hints at Fm being expressed? What or where are the dark pigments telling YOU Fm is expressed? I am trying to decipher which is attributed to Fm and not to id+. Learning...

Thank you,

Tara


This is Bubba the Buff Orp x Silkie cross rooster, his dad was Buff Orp and Mother c/c white Silkie Hen..



Here is Bubba with his c/c Silkie Mother, check his skin, it was white at birth(at hatch) due to Id/id+ inhibiting full expression of Fm, but C+/c restric some of that effect allowing the shanks to be dark..






here is Bubba as cockerel, take a look at his Beak, you can see some hints of his Fibromelanotic Fm/fm+ nature, but C+/c is doing that, most Fm/fm+ Id/id+ males dont show this..



Edited by Marvin (03/18/14 07:20 PM)

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#112417 - 03/18/14 07:29 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Marvin]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
and Now the most impressive Restriction of Dermal Inhibitor by C+/c that I have seen so far,...

Father was barred Rock, mother was c/c white Silkie, so yeah you can have a Dark Shanked Barred/Mottled bird with red Face with C+/c and Fm/fm+ and Id/id+



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#112419 - 03/18/14 10:04 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Marvin]
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 495
Loc: Australia
I agree with Marvin's observations:

If we assume that the chicks with dark skin are dark skinned due to Fm (which I'm inclined to think is most likely); then my best guess is that Koobey is showing the same phenomenon as Marvin's "Bubba" - namely dark shanks due to what I refer to as "mock id+/id+", due to the interaction of Fm with Id/id+ (and of course, only possible in males as females only have either id+ or Id). The Fm is essentially enhancing the dermal melanin effects of the single copy of id+ sufficiently such that inhibition by Id is over-ridden.

Hence, my guess is that 1/4 of Koobey's daughters should express Fm - (1/2 will get Id; 1/2 will get id+, and 1/2 will get Fm and 1/2 will get fm+: hence 1/4 will get both Fm and id+).

As Marvin has pointed out, if you look at Marvin's photo (even as an adult roosters), you can see that the beak has a 'blue' tint: similarly, if you look at the shoulder joint (where the wing attaches to the body), you will often find hints of melanin around the connective tissue there.

If Koobey is still in existence, I suspect he would have similar traces of Fm/fm Id/id+ expression.

Cheers,
htul

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#112420 - 03/18/14 11:36 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
To summarise:

- Yes, looks like at least some of your Millies are e+ based (most of mine in d'Uccles were e+ based, some wheaten).

- Fm needs id+ for full expression, Id masks Fm expression - & is sex-linked incompletely dominant.

- id+ (without Fm) is not usually expressed in day-old chicks (some other alleles do express in day-olds).

- c/c is unusual in that day-olds can have residual pigment, but this usually lightens as they mature.

- The unusual eye colour in the whites also indicates that something else is going on. Do all the whites have reddish eyes?If so, it may be another allele of the C locus.

----------------------------------------
Have you noticed any dark skinned MDF segregate as yet, eg siblings to the dark-skinned whites? If it is Fm, it should still express in non-white birds.

You don't need ER to produce a mottled laced (Tolbunt) phenotype. It can be produced on whatever the Laced or Millefleur based parent lines are. But if you wanted laced-tails, then would need to introduce these genes in the mix, ie starting with a laced-tail would be easiest.

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#112422 - 03/19/14 06:37 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Please do not promote MDF as the abbreviation of Millefleur... wink
Not happy with MF either but at least that one I recognized.

Id masks Fm, OK, but is the skin still white if Fm is present, or do they cancel each other out?

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#112440 - 03/20/14 11:07 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Marvin]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Took some more photos comparing "Pinto" girl, boy and another male...but in the meantime while I fight with the bucket (very amusing to watch...glad y'all can't observe that!) smirk


Originally Posted By: Marvin
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT

Here are two photos I took today of the White male Booted bantam with "pinto" markings.

Skin on wing (armpit) is partially dark; surrounded by uncoloured skin. I expect if he were NOT alive, I could pluck off feathers and find a mosaic of coloured and non-coloured areas.




Shank the same, top half of shank is darker (very, very light blue/purple). Light dark but still another colour. Leg is half/half.




Does this make this male id+/Id then? Or is Fm at play or...

Hope this helps explain what I mean by "Pinto."



This male clearly shows Id/id+ and Fm/fm+ C+/C+




Uh, this "Pinto" male I attached photos of is White...so he HAS to be c/c...yes? Not coloured as in C+/C+


So this male would be: Id/id+ and Fm/fm+ c/c? YES?


Originally Posted By: Marvin
here check at my male of Fibromelanotic Native stock crossed with White leghorn..


Help....!!!!

My limited understanding in Leghorns is that they are dom white (I/I), not rec white (c/c) like the Booted Bantams I have here.


I need to get head on straight...

Dom white in a single dose makes a Red Pyle...rec white in a single dose in a closed flock is mostly hidden BUT can hint it is there in a single dose by having white leak in primaries, tail feathers.


My experience with RED PYLE...dominant white in one dose I/i+


Red Pyle female - I+/i




Red Pyle male I/i+ (may also have single dose blue dilution too.. Bl/bl+??)








Red Pyle juveniles - I/i+




I do believe but not certain...that recessive white and dominant white are important in how Fm behaves. Not sure about Id...if the KIND of white involved matters any.


Silkies (mostly?) and say, Wyandottes are recessive white...Leghorns are dominant white. Any breed that expresses the variety "Red Pyle/Pile" would be dominant white (I) or possibly "splash" as in a double blue dilution (Bl/Bl).

The Booted Bantams I have exhibit recessive white (c). Pretty sure about that...

How important this is c or I is to Fibromelanosis (Fm) AND Inhibitor of pigment (Id); the kind of white (inhibitor of pigment)...I do not know. But it won't take much to upset the apple cart and have me even more confused...ha ha ha... crazy


Originally Posted By: Marvin

here is him with Fibromelanotic sister(Fm/fm+ id+/-)




Awesome photos and examples...love the DOTs of pigment on the bare skin. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

Last photo...is that a patch of red pigment on the male as in he is expressing a pattern "like" a single dose of dominant white as in sorta Red Pyle? Or just leaky autosomal red on the wing bow?

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112443 - 03/20/14 06:32 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT

Uh, this "Pinto" male I attached photos of is White...so he HAS to be c/c...yes? Not coloured as in C+/C+

So this male would be: Id/id+ and Fm/fm+ c/c? YES?
my bad, you are correct, he has to be c/c but I suspect Id/Id because if Id/id+ C+/c allows for colored shanks(with Fm/fm+), one would assume c/c would also allow for colored shanks in the pressence of FM/fm+


Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
My limited understanding in Leghorns is that they are dom white (I/I), not rec white (c/c) like the Booted Bantams I have here.
That is correct, Production Type Leghorns(the ones I used) carry, Dominant white, sexlinked barring, Sexlinked Silver and are mostly based on Birchen(ER, but sometimes also based on Extended Black)



Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
Dom white in a single dose makes a Red Pyle...rec white in a single dose in a closed flock is mostly hidden BUT can hint it is there in a single dose by having white leak in primaries, tail feathers.
well Not always, depends on the e allele, in a all Extended black it will mostly be all white, in Birchen(the white rooster I showed was Birchen) it will be like Redpyle but the wing triangle will be all white instead of gold/Red


Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
My experience with RED PYLE...dominant white in one dose I/i+


Red Pyle female - I+/i


Those birds dont look Red Pyle, Redpyle describes a wildtype chicken with Dominant white, The males Pyle zones will be Red, while the rest of the body will be white, Females will be mostly white but with salmon breast and some hackle gold tones..






Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
I do believe but not certain...that recessive white and dominant white are important in how Fm behaves. Not sure about Id...if the KIND of white involved matters any.
while dominant white does have some dilution effect on all things, including dermal melanin, it will not prevent Fm expression if id+ is pressent, maybe will turn all black shanks into dark slate blue, but thats it.. now Id/Id and Fm/Fm C+/C+(no recessive white) will not allow for slate shanks or black skin, Id/Id is That powerful..


Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
How important this is c or I is to Fibromelanosis (Fm) AND Inhibitor of pigment (Id); the kind of white (inhibitor of pigment)...I do not know. But it won't take much to upset the apple cart and have me even more confused...ha ha ha... crazy
Dominant white has no effect on Fm expression(it will fade it abit) but seems like id+ has trouble expressing on I/I, but if Fm is pressent, the expression of id+ is boosted , seems like at least one copy of c(as found on Silkies) can Restrict the full effect of Id, but so far only Id/id+ males I have seen this happened, so I dont know if Fm/fm+ C+/c Id/Id will show slate shanks as bubba did(the BOx white Silkie cross)




Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
Awesome photos and examples...love the DOTs of pigment on the bare skin. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!

Last photo...is that a patch of red pigment on the male as in he is expressing a pattern "like" a single dose of dominant white as in sorta Red Pyle? Or just leaky autosomal red on the wing bow?

Thank you kindly,
My boy was ER/e+ S/s+ Mh/mh+ I/i+ Fm/fm+ Id/id+ and probably also B/b+ and Autosomal red, so he was showing his Red shoulders due to the ER/e+ S/s+ Mh/m+ and autosomal red


I glad to be of help


Edited by Marvin (03/20/14 06:38 PM)

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#112444 - 03/20/14 11:46 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Marvin]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: Marvin
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
My experience with RED PYLE...dominant white in one dose I/i+


Red Pyle female - I+/i



Those birds dont look Red Pyle, Redpyle describes a wildtype chicken with Dominant white, The males Pyle zones will be Red, while the rest of the body will be white, Females will be mostly white but with salmon breast and some hackle gold tones..





I did not think so either until I came across photos of Grant Brereton's Red Pyle in Wyandottes. Page 15, 16, & 46 in his book 21st Century Poultry Breeding shows photos of many like the male and female I have posted above.




The variety is certainly NOT perfected, but these are red pyle from his project to make large Red Pyles.

The ones I posted are a first generation...never pursued them, was after either self-Buff or White. grin

Thank you and again, need to digest...wonderful stuff!

Tara

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#112445 - 03/21/14 02:31 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: Henk69
Please do not promote MDF as the abbreviation of Millefleur... wink
Not happy with MF either but at least that one I recognized.


I am unsure if you are teasing or very sternly serious...I choose teasing and will use MDF but if you ARE serious, I will ask you tell me again without an emoticon so I know you are moderating...a difficult job at the best of times. I am not here to irritate but have enjoyable fun.

Booted Bantams in the MDF (thousand of flowers) pattern variety

I translated it as it reads above at the very beginning as "thousands OF flowers" just like the French and Flemish tapestries from the Middle Ages and the Oriental rugs or Persian carpets that were popular in the late 15th and early 16th century in Europe.

I am using the known nomenclature to describe this poultry colour pattern...every country, even culture has found unique handles for their fowl. I use MDF because that is what 93 year old stringman Ridler taught me to use; his first variety of chicken and his very last.

Out of the deepest respects towards Mr. Gordon Ridler...a mentor, a kind soul, a man distraught because his body was failing him and he had SO much MORE life left to live. No matter, every time I type MDF, I think of him and his kindred spirit...eternal life so long as thousands OF flowers are allowed to exist.

I have always hated that the variety Mille Fleur dropped the "de!" Terrible choice I figure because translated, "thousand flowers" sounds like it was said in haste and is not as nicely constructed as "thousands OF flowers." The "de" makes for a nice roll off the tongue (roll your R's now everyone...RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR roll up the rim...yet quite another Canuck endeavour--we LUV our coffees up here in the Great White North--double double and all that!) ... The romance of Mille de Fleur sounds so exotic and refined. Not hacked up and shortened like we have no time to stop and smell the flowers...always in such a hurry to belt things out.

When I see Mille Fleur, I feel cheated...Mucky Fowls is what MF stands for in my books... wink

Originally Posted By: Henk69
Id masks Fm, OK, but is the skin still white if Fm is present, or do they cancel each other out?


I have far too many questions about the presence of a single dose of Fm, no matter the other genetics! Does one Fm mean we see these blue/grey beaks, these half/half shanks (or maybe id+ in one dose = half coloured shanks--but that dark faced female screams otherwise since she is id+/-?) and these "Pinto" skinned c/c Whites.

I would be ALOT happier if I had only ONE eumelanin melaniser in play.

I ponder the gypsy/mulberry face! Sigrid talks about it on page 70 to 72 (Genetics of the Chicken Extremes) but says e-series E or ER and I note, wattles and combs on males' photos are still reddish.

I think I personally would be WAY better off if I only had id+ to worry about...throw in Fm and recessive blacks and it is just too much more black than I want to see to get slaty blue shanks/toes and still keep red face gear.

I see other breeds with MDF variety that call for slaty blue shanks/toes but no dark faces.


Originally Posted By: Htul
I agree with Marvin's observations:

If we assume that the chicks with dark skin are dark skinned due to Fm (which I'm inclined to think is most likely); then my best guess is that Koobey is showing the same phenomenon as Marvin's "Bubba" - namely dark shanks due to what I refer to as "mock id+/id+", due to the interaction of Fm with Id/id+ (and of course, only possible in males as females only have either id+ or Id). The Fm is essentially enhancing the dermal melanin effects of the single copy of id+ sufficiently such that inhibition by Id is over-ridden.

Hence, my guess is that 1/4 of Koobey's daughters should express Fm - (1/2 will get Id; 1/2 will get id+, and 1/2 will get Fm and 1/2 will get fm+: hence 1/4 will get both Fm and id+).

As Marvin has pointed out, if you look at Marvin's photo (even as an adult roosters), you can see that the beak has a 'blue' tint: similarly, if you look at the shoulder joint (where the wing attaches to the body), you will often find hints of melanin around the connective tissue there.

If Koobey is still in existence, I suspect he would have similar traces of Fm/fm Id/id+ expression.

Cheers,
htul


Wonderful stuff...thank you.

No Koobey is gone now. He was two years of age in 2008, so he has passed on due to old age...he would be, what, approaching 8 years of age...

The three MDF females I posted photos of though (with extended wings and tails to show C+/c may sometimes show the rec white as white in feathers) are still going strong.




Here they are with the White feathered but dark dark female.


Originally Posted By: KazJaps

To summarise:

- Yes, looks like at least some of your Millies are e+ based (most of mine in d'Uccles were e+ based, some wheaten).


Thank you...big sigh of relief...e+ based. I kept thinking automatically eb brown but every coloured Booted chick down I looked at, SCREAMED e+...now I can rest easy...if KazJaps had d'Uccles on e+...well so too may I and happily! grin

Originally Posted By: KazJaps

- Fm needs id+ for full expression, Id masks Fm expression - & is sex-linked incompletely dominant.


So thinking...Fm is like an amplifier or a gate keeper open thing...but if there is NO dark pigment from id+, then FM has nothing to amplify or allow through....maybe...I seem to recall we have other genetics that allow expression of eumelanin (like recessive blacks, etc.).


Gonna post photos of chest and wing/arm pit of female "Pinto" White Booted...post #112413, I posted shank and wing/arm pit of MALE White booted...so fair is fair to post one of the counter to him, the female.



Female White Booted "Pinto"




And then "Pinto" female compared to "Pinto" male in pit and shanks...




White Booted arm/wing pits of male on left, female on right.





Skin on chests; female on left and male on right - not a great photo but not willing to "pluck" feathers off either bird simply to show light and dark skinned areas...they need all their feathers as we are still enjoying winter weather here. wink



Now these half pigmented shanks...

MDF male with red face gear (no dark pigment in wattles, comb, face) and he has half/half pigment in his shank. White male I labelled "Pinto" for his shanks with the same expression of some pigments and some no pigments.

Here are both male's shanks;

Top of photo is MDF male and bottom is the "Pinto" male White Booted. Same pigment pattern; darker pigment on top of shank.





White "Pinto" male left shank, MDF male right shank.




Now the pair of "Pintos" (white female and white male) and MDF male.



Left is White "Pinto" female, middle is White "Pinto" male and right is MDF male.


Since both male AND female seem to be expressing the same shades of pigment and the half pigmented shanks...does this then exclude gender linked id+ or are we simply looking at both genders having only one allele of id+ then?

Next post I want to show photos of beaks and eyes on the Booteds.

Tara

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#112446 - 03/21/14 02:36 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps


- The unusual eye colour in the whites also indicates that something else is going on. Do all the whites have reddish eyes?If so, it may be another allele of the C locus.

----------------------------------------


The darkest pigmented eye is the dark White feathered female, next the White "Pinto" female and then the white feathered females.

Photos

EYES...

Comparing THREE White Booted females with white shanks to the White Booted female that is very dark in skin and shanks.

The "Pinto" White female is beside the dark White female--you can SEE the iris colour in the "Pinto" girl is ever so slightly darker than the other White females but not as dark as the dark White female (ol' mulberry face!). Better photos of that comparison to follow here.




White female in foreground, "Pinto" White female in middle, dark White female in background.




Dark White female in foreground, "Pinto" White female behind.




BEAKS...

Female "Pinto" White on left, middle male "Pinto" white, right is MDF male.




Females; tiny blue tinge in "Pinto" female bottom...lots of blue tint on dark White feathered Female at top of photo.




Originally Posted By: KazJaps

Have you noticed any dark skinned MDF segregate as yet, eg siblings to the dark-skinned whites? If it is Fm, it should still express in non-white birds.


The one chick hatched this March is my only coloured Booted.

Because I am not happy with the less than stellar "slaty blue" shanks and toes in the three female and one male MDF's, I have not focussed much effort past the occasional "egg" under a broody hen for fun. The reason I chose to retain the dark dark White female was to "make" White Booteds with dark shanks/toes so the MDF's made in future will have the one dose of recessive white for a "bright topcoat" AND also to darken up the light blue shanks and toes to a proper slaty blue.

Any White feathered Booteds produced with white shanks/toes, in my mind, would NOT make good candidates for crossing into the MDF's, but fine as proper SOP compliant Whites.

What I am trying to decipher is will mating the MDF male I currently have with the three dark (faced, beaked, shanked) White Booted females cause more of these mulberry faced Booteds...I don't mind them at all but not the objective for fixing where the MDF's need to go now. Want slaty blue shanks/toes but skip that dark (ate blueberry pie?) face!

Originally Posted By: KazJaps

You don't need ER to produce a mottled laced (Tolbunt) phenotype. It can be produced on whatever the Laced or Millefleur based parent lines are. But if you wanted laced-tails, then would need to introduce these genes in the mix, ie starting with a laced-tail would be easiest.


Awesome...and yet another concern you have pleasantly put to rest. Thank you for that!

Not saying it will be an easy variety, but another distraction of the dotty dot kind and major fun stuff. I don't want to even begin it if it is doomed to fail with no proper e-series in the parent stock. Not sure if laced-tail is wanted or not in Tolbunt. I believe the variety is not even recognized in North America...so I guess we will see if I can entice a few chicks to hatch and see where it goes from there.

I appreciate your kindness, experience, and willingness to assist. grin

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112447 - 03/21/14 05:23 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
I settle for MdF, lowercase d
I use smileys to lessen the impact of my strictness.
So always serious but not in an offensive way.

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#112473 - 03/22/14 10:52 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Henk69]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: Henk69
I settle for MdF, lowercase d
I use smileys to lessen the impact of my strictness.
So always serious but not in an offensive way.


Thank you...now have two men to think of when I type "MdF": one that will not roll over in his grave because the "de" got dropped and another that won't crack my fingers with a yard stick for violating "strict" protocols here on The Coop. crazy

Thank you...very DElish and DElightful!


Now for a question I hope some across the Pond from me may answer about the worded description in the Standards in place regarding shank and toe colourations for the Booted Bantams.

I have a copy of David Scrivener's "Rare Poultry Breeds" and had a REread of it...there are several very nicely executed photographs of White Booted Bantams; taken by photographer John Tarren (I have seen some of Tarren's photos of John and Sylvia Cook Cornish Bantams and yi yi yi...nicely done!).

Pictured is a male (page 234) and same male/photo but also a female on page 241. Both labelled as "White Booted Bantam." I may easily SEE that the male has light blue toes peaking out from under his luscious ample foot feathering...the female, more difficult but I do believe she has a blue/grey toe peeping out too. Her head is turned in the photo and her beak...ICRUMBA! Her beak is blue tinged. Male's a more reddish cast beak but also, there is that telltale BLUE again.

So...this might be fine since not all Standards of Perfection in different countries are the same for breeds and/or varieties...maybe the White variety in the Booted Bantam is allowed grey/bluish shanks and toes.

Fine enough BUT...here is an excerpt from page 241-242 of Scrivener's chapter on "True Bantams:"

Quote:
Booted/Federfüßige/Zwerg/Sabelpoot

...

Description
The wording of American, British, Dutch and German standards all differ slightly from each other, and sometimes all seem to differ from some of the birds winning at the shows. Everyone agrees on the colours of plumage, eyes, shanks, lobes and so on,

...

It is on matters of size and shape that differences can be seen.


Hmmm...I beg to differ...shanks from what the photos show and what the American standards list...different colours!


I do NOT have access to a copy of the British standard but see from poultrykeeper site regarding the Booted Bantam, the description for this breed and its accepted varieties must be listed in the "British Poultry Standards" on pages 75 to 78.

Please, someone with a copy of the BPS, would you please tell me what colour in facial gear (combs, wattles, face, earlobes), eyes, and toes/shanks, are acceptable in the variety for Whites and the Millefleur? NO mention is made in Scrivener's book when he lists the "Booted Colour Varieties" regarding SHANK/TOES, EYES, and FACIAL GEAR colours.

Why ask? Simply because those two nice photos of White Booted Bantams show GREY/BLUE shanks (toes) and the eyes look to be a nice DARK reddish bay too. So dark pigment is oozing outta these Whites...ample black there...should it be in a White variety?


ABA (American Bantam Association) lists for the Booted Bantam:

Mille Fleur:

Quote:
COMB, FACE, WATTLES & EAR LOBES: Bright red.
BEAK: Horn with slight gray shading.
EYES: Reddish bay.
SHANKS & TOES: Slaty blue;



White:

Quote:
COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EAR LOBES: Bright red.
BEAK: Very light horn.
EYES: Reddish bay.
SHANKS & TOES: White;



{Booted Bantam ABA varieties in: Black, Blue, Gray, Mottled, and Self Blue - state aging colouration differences "SHANKS & TOES: bluish ("bluish black" in the Black Booted) slate first year, lighter in later years;}


APA (American Poultry Association) lists for the Booted Bantams as colour in both male and female:

Mille Fleur:

Quote:
COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EAR-LOBES: Bright red.
BEAK: Horn.
EYES: Reddish bay.
Shanks and toes - slaty blue.



White:

Quote:
COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EAR-LOBES: Bright red.
BEAK: Pinkish white.
EYES: Reddish bay.
SHANKS AND TOES: Pinkish white.



Now on a side note but related to shank and toe colourations...the Old English Game Bantam (among other breeds) lists a variety for Mille Fleur (as well as White) but note the important differences compared to the Booted Bantams of the same variety.


Mille Fleur OEGB:

Quote:
COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EAR LOBES: Bright red.
BEAK: Horn with slightly gray shading.
EYES: Reddish bay.
SHANKS & TOES: Bluish slate when young, lighter in older birds.



White OEGB:

Quote:
COMB, FACE, WATTLES AND EAR LOBES: Bright red.
BEAK: Light horn.
EYES: Red.
SHANKS & TOES: White, tinged with pink.



Does this then mean the Old English Game Bantams (and Booteds in the varieties for Black, Blue, Gray, Mottled, and Self Blue) are worded with MORE of a keen understanding of the genetics in play for colour varieties and expression of eumelanin pigments in faces and feets/toes? A better understanding and more realistic understanding of how dark skanks/toes and expected facial colourations will act...even as the birds age too?

I have read some say the MALES with dark skin will fade as they get older, more than the females...so fading of pigment due to genders, the male not being able to express eumelanin (black) pigments as strongly as when younger.


It would seem there are some different treatments AND expectations shown to the variety of Mille Fleur and Whites in breeds and colour varieties of chickens as far as Standard of Perfections are concerned.

Personally, I would like to adhere to the SOP worded descriptions but ponder the wisdom and genetic understanding of White variety having white shanks and toes with bright red facial gear AND the MdF variety in the same breed having the same bright red faces/beaks/wattles and lobes along with SLATY BLUE shanks and toes. Is the expectation of SOP's for MdF to have slaty blue shanks and toes AND red facial gear attainable?

I again express that I cannot help but shake that at one time, historically, White and MdF were bred and treated not as ONE breed with several varieties but as a unique and single breed each unto their own; not colour varieties IN the same BREED. Might have been a more genetic smart approach to have. Never the two shall meet and therefore crossing BREEDS was not without its torments? Ha ha ha...

It is possible, of course, to have slaty blue shanks/toes with red facial gear...but seeing the photograph in David Scrivener's "Rare Poultry Breeds" book of a nice looking male Booted White with grey/blue toes...and a female with the same and a blue tinged bill AND not knowing the wording in the British Poultry Standards and other Standards across Europe.

Standards of Perfections don't need to change to suit the birds (especially to suit one owner), but I wonder how more difficult they need to be to achieve given the inheritance of slate blue feet/toes and plumage colours.

I have heard rumour that the British SOP has genetic recipes in the Standard to explain the varieties? Is this true and if so, how utterly marvelous! grin

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112476 - 03/22/14 09:52 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
The Booted Bantam Breeders Group website has the British Standard for Dutch Booted Bantams:
http://bootedbantamsgroup.webs.com/booted-bantam

Plus on the following UK website:
http://mybeautifulbantams.webs.com/sabelpootbreedstandard.htm

Quote:
White
Male and female plumage: Pure snow white.
In both sexes: Beak white. Eyes red. Comb, face, wattles and earlobes bright red. Legs and feet white.


I'm not surprised as it is the same with Belgian Bearded Bantams (ie white legged Whites & Cuckoo, the rest blue-slate-black variations).

How the problem is often solved is to use B - barring, ie cuckoo based whites. That way you don't need Id in any of the gene pool.

The following Dutch Sablepoot website:
http://home.wxs.nl/~rutger1/kleuren.html

White:
Quote:
Bij geelbenige rassen kan men voor dat doel het gen voor koekoek door kruising in zijn witte dieren brengen, maar bij blauwbenige rassen gaat dat niet.


Google translation:
Quote:
When yellow-legged breeds can bring for that purpose the gene for cuckoo crossing in his white animals, but blue-legged races is not.


I'm guessing that means that the Dutch Standard is for white-legged Whites too? And that they are also suggesting to use B - barring to change blue legs to white.

Maybe that strict Dutchman can give a better translation smile

--------------------------------

As a side project with the d'Uccles, I thought I would try to make a white-legged white phenotype without c recessive white (didn't want to segregate c/c with dark legs) or I dominant white (only because no I in the stock), & without Id (white legs a flaw in other varieties). I didn't like E or ER based colour/pattern varieties as much as tri-colours/bi-colours & Quails either, so didn't want E or ER Cuckoos or cuckoo based whites. So I went with white-legged white exhibition phenotype as an offshoot to my Barred Blue (or Lav) Silver Columbian/Silver Millefleur project.

So the following blue-legged white phenotype hen is actually Blue-Splash Silver Porcelaine in genotype
(e+/e+ Co mo/mo S/- Bl/Bl lav/lav id+/- C+/C+ i+/i+):


The following white-legged white phenotype cockerel is Barred Blue-Splash Lavender Silver Columbian in genotype:
(e+/e+ Co S/? mo/? Bl/Bl lav/lav B-? C+/C+ i+/i+)


Hmmm, my memory is fading. Remember who his father is & what breeding pen, but not sure of the mother (without looking up old posts), just remember bad type. Nearly 10 years ago smile

But one other thing - B/B mo/mo together is supposed to give an almost white bird anyway (but not B/- mo/mo hens).

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#112478 - 03/23/14 02:16 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: KazJaps

The following Dutch Sablepoot website:
http://home.wxs.nl/~rutger1/kleuren.html

White:
Quote:
Bij geelbenige rassen kan men voor dat doel het gen voor koekoek door kruising in zijn witte dieren brengen, maar bij blauwbenige rassen gaat dat niet.


Google translation:
Quote:
When yellow-legged breeds can bring for that purpose the gene for cuckoo crossing in his white animals, but blue-legged races is not.


I'm guessing that means that the Dutch Standard is for white-legged Whites too? And that they are also suggesting to use B - barring to change blue legs to white.

Maybe that strict Dutchman can give a better translation smile


He means that sexlinked barring would make the legs white, and that is not desirable in the dutch SOP.

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#112479 - 03/23/14 03:18 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Thank you. smile

So the Dutch SOP for Whites is blue/slate leg colour?

If so, it is strange to mention cuckoo at all.

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#112480 - 03/23/14 03:29 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Thank you. smile

So the Dutch SOP for Whites is blue/slate leg colour?

If so, it is strange to mention cuckoo at all.


He probably wasted a lot of years on that... wink

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#112501 - 03/25/14 12:14 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Needed some time to digest, read up, get my ducks all in a row so to speak!

Now I do NOT want to offend with my questions but please realize that I have gone from dismissing Fm because Crawford suggested I probably did NOT have it in my Booted (think now I most certainly do!) AND gone from believing implicitly that my MdF variety HAD to be based on eb and not e+ (as in duckwing) even though the chick's down screamed DUCKWING at me and I chose not to listen...sigh.

The two suggestions that barring/cuckoo be used to lighten up shanks/toes and that C+/c allows for expression of dark shanks/toes simply have me stumped...


Interesting two items I would like to address:

1) The cuckoo/barring suggestion that it would take slaty blue/grey shanks/toes and alter them to be light (white, pinkish, etc.) shanks/toes for White feathered chickens.

2) That Marvin is attributing the C+/c on his barred/cuckoo as allowing for the expression of id+ dark shanks/toes.


I beg to differ only because I am "seeing" the chickens say otherwise. You decide or please give me an updated version of what I have read...


Here is the hypothesis...prove or disprove please...I SO need to learn this!


Genetics of the Chicken Extremes - The Basics By Sigrid Van Dort and Friends; 2012.
Page 172 - caption for photograph:

Quote:
Fake Wheaten Dutch bantam hen. The color of the legs betrays the e-allele is not eWh but e+. Columbian (Co) has no influence on leg colours unless in the presence of cuckoo/barred, then it looks as if cuckoo is not capable to remove all dermal pigment.


I believe this and more information may be found in this scientific study:

Smyth JR, 1994. Melanin Pigmentation: Its Biological Roles, Inheritance and Expression in the Chicken. Department of Veterinary and Animal Sciences, University of Massachusetts, Amherst, Massachusetts, USA.



Very important quote to me...seems since my Booteds are based upon duckwing (e+) and the MdF colour pattern MAY have Columbian (Co) and I certainly have genetics like id+ and most likely Fm involved...I am going to say that C+/c does NOT allow dark shanks/toes when barring/cuckoo is present. This combination (for my Booted Bantams at least) of e+ and Co would disable B (cuckoo/barring); making it NOT able to be of ANY help in taking slaty blue/grey shanks and making them light enough to be correct for a North American SOP compliant White feathered Booted Bantam.

I believe since my Booteds have id+ but are NOT based on E or ER (but e+), that my best course of action is to drop the presence of Fm (gypsy/mulberry face is the issue in Fm with Extended Black or Birchen plus some hint that White skin may somehow be linked too but eye colour was not dark so unsure on this association with W - Brumbaugh, 1967; Smyth, 1976, 1990) in any of the Booted Bantams I want to have comply to the SOP's (ABA & APA) for the varieties in White and Mille Fleur.


I wanted to revisit this, cuckoo/barring and have all the more reasons now to do so with KazJaps citing this other fellow's suggestion (that needed to be translated from Dutch to English):

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
to use B - barring to change blue legs to white.


Want to investigate that barring/cuckoo perhaps could take the MdF dark shanks/toes and make them light shanks/toes with the addition of barring/cuckoo. I think not simply because I am SEEing chickens with the genetic background that sides with barring/cuckoo being rendered incapable of lightening shanks/toes.

Here is what Marvin graciously added to the conversation here. Been thinking about this alot, his suggesting that impure C+/c is responsible for the dark shanks. I think Columbian (Co) has more to do with why the shanks can express the Fm and id+.

Originally Posted By: Marvin
and Now the most impressive Restriction of Dermal Inhibitor by C+/c that I have seen so far,...

Father was barred Rock, mother was c/c white Silkie, so yeah you can have a Dark Shanked Barred/Mottled bird with red Face with C+/c and Fm/fm+ and Id/id+






I agree this IS a very impressive expression of dark shanks/toes...but, with the deepest of respects, I don't believe Marvin is attributing the correct genetics at work.

It is my understanding this may be Columbian at work not C+/c (otherwise I suspect all my one dose of recessive white MdF's should have dark shanks and they simply don't; half/half "Pinto" shanks/toes). I have seen Co used in my exhibition White varieties as a white enhancer and I have read that a Columbian colour patterned male was used in the second generation cross to make White Chanteclers by Brother Wilfrid.

Quote:

In the spring of 1909, the Brother mated the fine Wyandotte Columbian type with the whitest pullets of the first crossing.



I had bred this strain of exhibition White Wyandottes for five years to express as many hidden colour genetics as possible so that I might find out what was UNDER the White of my bantam White Wyandottes. cool





This Delware (Silver Columbian Cuckoo expressing autosomal red) patterned bantam Wyandotte showed me that I had Columbian in my exhibition White bantam Wyandottes.




These colourful "cuckoo/barred" males also popped out of my Whites.




Black (silver) and gold females...




Lots of colourful birds from Whites...LOL

Now I most certainly can harvest barred/cuckoo from the bantam Wyandottes but not so sure I want to do that with rose comb, workings (adds yet more serrations to single combs), yellow legs...there are too many differences from Wyandotte to Booted for me to feel comfy on a hunch that barring/cuckoo is what is needed in the Booteds to lighten dark shanks/toes from id+. No issue going the other way, which makes me laugh, but the Booteds are so close to being where I want them, I am not willing to add a whole bunch of other "stuff" into the strain when shank/toe colouration and facial colour are what I want to fix for now.


It is my opinion that the best White birds are birds that are first Black and then made White with recessive white, dominant white (or both) PLUS white enhancers such as; silver, blue dilution, pigment stoppers like cuckoo/barred and even mottling but Columbian would also be expected.

I believe that most White Silkies are based on eb brown, but White birds may be made on any e-series (an issue indeed, white made on ANY e-series), but Barred Rocks are supposedly based on Extended Black (E) with silver (S), cuckoo/barred (B) (slow/fast feathering determines the pattern is barred or cuckoo), and Columbian (Co).

I expect the reason why Marvin is SEEing such dark pigmentation of the shanks/toes is because of Columbian (Co), not impure recessive white (C+/c). My hunch but not necessarily a correct one...for sure!

Just me asking Marvin to also investigate how Columbian might be allowing cuckoo/barring to be suppressed and the dark shanks being allowed to be expressed...another piece of your puzzle for Marvin, to pursue, maybe?



Originally Posted By: KazJaps

Plus on the following UK website:
http://mybeautifulbantams.webs.com/sabelpootbreedstandard.htm

Quote:
White
Male and female plumage: Pure snow white.
In both sexes: Beak white. Eyes red. Comb, face, wattles and earlobes bright red. Legs and feet white.


So I expect the photograph in Scrivener's book of both White Booteds, the pair, are of DUTCH White Booteds then with the NOT white toes.

Thank you EVER so much for this KazJaps...solved one mystery for me! Yah...


Originally Posted By: KazJaps

I'm not surprised as it is the same with Belgian Bearded Bantams (ie white legged Whites & Cuckoo, the rest blue-slate-black variations).

How the problem is often solved is to use B - barring, ie cuckoo based whites. That way you don't need Id in any of the gene pool.

The following Dutch Sablepoot website:
http://home.wxs.nl/~rutger1/kleuren.html

White:
Quote:
Bij geelbenige rassen kan men voor dat doel het gen voor koekoek door kruising in zijn witte dieren brengen, maar bij blauwbenige rassen gaat dat niet.


Google translation:
Quote:
When yellow-legged breeds can bring for that purpose the gene for cuckoo crossing in his white animals, but blue-legged races is not.


I'm guessing that means that the Dutch Standard is for white-legged Whites too? And that they are also suggesting to use B - barring to change blue legs to white.

Maybe that strict Dutchman can give a better translation smile

--------------------------------

As a side project with the d'Uccles, I thought I would try to make a white-legged white phenotype without c recessive white (didn't want to segregate c/c with dark legs) or I dominant white (only because no I in the stock), & without Id (white legs a flaw in other varieties). I didn't like E or ER based colour/pattern varieties as much as tri-colours/bi-colours & Quails either, so didn't want E or ER Cuckoos or cuckoo based whites. So I went with white-legged white exhibition phenotype as an offshoot to my Barred Blue (or Lav) Silver Columbian/Silver Millefleur project.

So the following blue-legged white phenotype hen is actually Blue-Splash Silver Porcelaine in genotype
(e+/e+ Co mo/mo S/- Bl/Bl lav/lav id+/- C+/C+ i+/i+):


The following white-legged white phenotype cockerel is Barred Blue-Splash Lavender Silver Columbian in genotype:
(e+/e+ Co S/? mo/? Bl/Bl lav/lav B-? C+/C+ i+/i+)


Hmmm, my memory is fading. Remember who his father is & what breeding pen, but not sure of the mother (without looking up old posts), just remember bad type. Nearly 10 years ago smile

But one other thing - B/B mo/mo together is supposed to give an almost white bird anyway (but not B/- mo/mo hens).


Very interesting...love you got to use blue dilution AND lavender...I have no lav here.

OK...IF I really wanted to add cuckoo/barring (B), as said, I have that (B in B/B & B/b+ males and B/- females) possibility from my bantam White Wyandottes (recessive whites based on eb brown) along with other white enhancers like Columbian.


Originally Posted By: Henk69
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Thank you. smile

So the Dutch SOP for Whites is blue/slate leg colour?

If so, it is strange to mention cuckoo at all.


He probably wasted a lot of years on that... wink


Thank you Henk!

This fellow would have wasted a lot of time on this ignoring the "not to be white" shanks/toes in the Dutch Standard AND in my case...cuckoo/barring is even more UNuseable...

When your birds are based on duckwing (e+) and have Columbian (which some of the MdF varieties DO have, not all but some do)...then the combination of duckwing and Columbian will NOT let cuckoo/barring (B) remove the dermal pigment.

I wanted to revisit Marvin's dark legged cuckoo/barred because I do have birds with C+/c that are not expressing DARK legs AND I won't be able to use cuckoo/barring to tone down the dark pigments in shank/toe colourations in any of my Booted Bantams simply because they are based on duckwing (e+) and some (if not all?) will have Columbian (Co).


KazJaps;

FEMALE
Pheno - Blue-legged white.
Geno - Blue-Splash Silver Porcelaine.
(e+/e+ Co mo/mo S/- Bl/Bl lav/lav id+/- C+/C+ i+/i+)


HAS id+/e+/Co and NO barred/cuckoo = DARK legs.


MALE
Pheno - White-legged white.
Geno - Barred Blue-Splash Lavender Silver Columbian.
(e+/e+ Co S/? mo/? Bl/Bl lav/lav B-? C+/C+ i+/i+)

HAS e+/Co/B and NO id+ = LIGHT legs.


Am I incorrect in saying:

- Female has dark legs due to id+.

- Cockerel had no id+ expressing, he had NO dark legs?


May I say IF the cockerel had id+, in the presence of e+, Co, and B...he WOULD have had DARK legs?

Missing component was id+ for dark legs??



I am leaning towards the conclusion that I need to DUMP the Fm and do that completely or find that it is laced throughout my (SOP want to be compliant varieties) Booted Bantam strain where if I don't clean it out, it will be everywhere!

I do not want mulberry faces if SOP compliance is the goal for the varieties...I still want (but will keep separate) Whites with white shanks/toes, Whites with dark legs for a single dose of recessive white to contribute into the MdF's for the brightness, and in the MdF's will need better "slaty blue" shanks/toes but expect if I get rid of the Fm, there will go the too dark faces I see in those three White feathered females.

The id+ will need to remain pure in any of the MdF males (easy to see if the females have it, simply they will express their single gender dose of id+), id+ kept outta the SOP White Booteds, and I should be good to go. Or at least I hope so!


I am still confused over the Booteds with "Pinto" half/half shanks/toes but think it may be duckwing e+ in conjunction with; Co, fm+, id+ (allows black). Not completely sure what is choking the full expression of id+ if that indeed is what is trying to be expressed...could well be Fm/fm+ all on its own (NO id+) and how that is expressed as it is NOT gender linked like Id is. Sigh... What I can say is I have both genders in White feathers and MdF feathers expressing this half/half "Pinto" shanks. May never know why the mosaic of pigments in the skin and legs.

Females express melanizers stronger than their male counterparts...but these "Pinto" half/half shanks seem to be expressed identically, by both genders in an equal expression (same phenotype).

I would expect a male expressing one dose of id+ as in Id/id+ to potentially have those "Pinto" half/half marked shanks, but his female counterpart cannot be impure for id+ or Id...she gets one dose of this sex-linked gene; she IS or she is NOT.

This is the reason why I am leaning towards it being Fibromelanosis since both genders can be heterozygous as in Fm/fm+ unlike Id (male Id/id+ or Id/Id or id+/id+ and female id+/- or Id/-).



To cloud the waters further...agh...mottling may be expressed in the dermal pigment as spotty or "party" too...I too am pondering the purity of mottling in my Booteds because THAT could explain the half/half "Pinto" shanks perhaps? Bwa ha ha...too many options to consider...make it stop, eh? crazy



Yes, both these chicks have mottling, but the one in the foreground, barely...



Before this thread moves on...one last question about the Dutch SOP for the WHITE variety of the Sabelpoot; it seems that BLUE/SLATE is the shank/toe colour, are the eyes "REDDISH BAY," the comb, face, wattles and earlobes "BRIGHT RED," and the beak "HORN WITH SLIGHT GREY SHADING" or "PINKISH WHITE?" I am trying to determine if id+ or Fm or both are in play here in the Dutch SOP White Sabelpoot. How much black pigment is in play. It would be most helpful to know the expectations of other SOP's for this breed and hints at the genetic makeup for MdF and the White in the breed, ones with slaty grey shanks/toes. It is the face (the skin and beak), that concerns me...in conjunction with dark shanks/toes...if the facial gear is also darkish (gypsy/mulberry) along with the shanks/toes, could be Fm, not just id+.



I truly believe that Fm, id+, mo, W, and things like which e-series are all very important on the depth of black (eumelanin) expressed (and where!) but also confusion on things like if cuckoo/barring is allowed to remove dermal pigments, how mottling is expressed in shanks (Anconas with mottled black in shanks yet the Exchequer Leghorn is to have yellow to dusky yellow shanks)...I can say I would have been happier believing only id+ was in my Booteds. Would have made my project of developing a White feathered Booted with dark shanks/toes for crossing into the MdF far simpler. No matter, the more difficult the task, the more satisfaction we reap when we succeed...righty oh, eh?


Thank you kindly for all your help thus far. Again, I am not wanting to insult anyone here, but merely learn so am questioning beliefs and the foundations of such. I appreciate this all immensely. So much to think about and that is a rather fine dilemma to find oneself in! grin

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112506 - 03/25/14 09:29 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
If you have Id segregating, you could make white-legged Whites from your Dutch Booted Bantams alone.

Eg, need to segregate:

e+ Id/Id (or Id/-) fm+/fm+ c/c

That's the going theory, ie that your Millefleur had something like Id/id+ Fm/fm+, masking the full expression of Fm, giving a pseudo id+ phenotype.

I am sure that if Dr Crawford had seen the photos of what you are segregating in the whites now, that he would have added Fm as a possible candidate. You don't get pigment skin gypsy faced, etc on e+ id+ (wild-type) based birds like you are showing.

But, it is strange that Fm should pop up in Dutch Booted Bantams. Would be interesting to know if it is the same Fm sequence as found in Silkies, etc.


Edited by KazJaps (03/25/14 10:58 PM)
Edit Reason: clarified

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#112507 - 03/25/14 10:24 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Regarding mo/mo. Yes, there is old genetics research saying that mo dilutes leg pigment. But, there are plenty of mo/mo exhibition varieties with blue/slate legs (eg Millefleur Dutch Bantams, Sablepoots, Millefleur & Black Mottled Belgian Bearded Bantams, etc).

There is probably a correlation of excess white in mottled/exchequer varieties also contributing to paler leg colour, especially obvious where excess white feathers are in foot feathers.

With these two:


I had lines of Millefleur & Black Mottled that would develop mottles much older than this, sometimes skipping this juvenile stage completely. If you can, try to track the quality of mottling, juveniles through to adulthood, & see what produces the best tri-colour (mottled) adult pattern. Alot of mine were late bloomers, & this is probably why I rarely witnessed excess white/extreme mottling gradually develop over years in old birds that I had bred. There are probably other modifiers to the mo locus that are influencing expression.

------------------------
Also there is variation to wheaten & id+ dermal expression. Smyth did suggest that eWh diluted id+ leg pigment more than ey. Wheaten Modern Games have dermal - willow legs, but I don't know if these are eWh or ey, &/or may have another dermal allele similar to id+.

There is also variation of I - Dominant White with effects to leg colour (& Fm). Once again, old genetics research indicated I diluted dermal pigment, but you can see e+ I id+ Red Pyles with blue legs (eg Red Pyle Belgian Bearded Bantams, Dutch bantams, OEG, etc).

So leg colour genetics is quite complex, lots of modifiers, & dependent on specific combinations (with exceptions not uncommon to basic rules).

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#112508 - 03/25/14 10:51 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Off topic:


Is this front boy Bl/bl+ blue-laced too (& with B)? Did he have any phaeomelanin on the breast, or mainly eb pattern.

With some of my Bl/bl+ Japs, I could get blue-laced with Silver Blue or Lemon Blues. It didn't seem like Ml was needed for good blue lacing.

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#112522 - 03/27/14 01:01 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
If you have Id segregating, you could make white-legged Whites from your Dutch Booted Bantams alone.

Eg, need to segregate:

e+ Id/Id (or Id/-) fm+/fm+ c/c

That's the going theory, ie that your Millefleur had something like Id/id+ Fm/fm+, masking the full expression of Fm, giving a pseudo id+ phenotype.


Thank you, more options to contemplate...all very good and much appreciated.

Now I wonder how many "pair" breedings I will find myself doing to attempt to substantiate some of this. laugh


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
I am sure that if Dr Crawford had seen the photos of what you are segregating in the whites now, that he would have added Fm as a possible candidate. You don't get pigment skin gypsy faced, etc on e+ id+ (wild-type) based birds like you are showing.


I appreciate his help would only go as far as the data and birds on the ground I sent him photos of.

I may have to update him on where this has gone. Give him some amusements to entertain him while winter revisits the Prairies here. He is such a neat, brilliant, giving person and very funny to converse with. He cracks me up constantly and average people figure genetics is a DRY topic! grin


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
But, it is strange that Fm should pop up in Dutch Booted Bantams. Would be interesting to know if it is the same Fm sequence as found in Silkies, etc.


I agree. I am not one to cross breeds unless for a real good reason--done that once with a lot of intrepidation.

I thought I read some place in one of these many dark pigment studies that Holland was one of the places that had some dark pigmented chickens historically. I'll have to try and remember where I read that and revisit it.

If it was Silkies introduced BERFORE I acquired them (have to be 15 years prior), would expect more Silkie traits along for the ride that would surface...more toes, impure vulture hocks, possible crests, non-single combs, silkie feather, and the shape would be way different. The Booteds I have are pretty scrawny with a more "eggy" shape than I would expect outta a Silkie. The Booteds simply don't seem to have the other baggage that would say Silkies were in the mix to give them the Fm.

Not sure how one would entice someone with access to a lab to even want to test these dark skinned, legged, faced Booteds to compare them with Silkies. Waving money to cover a testing fee don't even get noticed sometimes! Needs something worthy to get people in the right places to bother with it.

Suppose to be some commercial R&D aspects on the go regarding dark pigmented chickens being desirable for certain meat markets. Maybe have to keep crowing up a storm, eh?

All I know is the birds never lie...l00kin' at you with a gypsy mulberry face and shocking red glowing eyes! whistle

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112523 - 03/27/14 01:01 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Regarding mo/mo. Yes, there is old genetics research saying that mo dilutes leg pigment. But, there are plenty of mo/mo exhibition varieties with blue/slate legs (eg Millefleur Dutch Bantams, Sablepoots, Millefleur & Black Mottled Belgian Bearded Bantams, etc).]


Seems there are always those rule breakers. Not answers that are black or in this case, white explained solidly enough we can say for certain.


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
I had lines of Millefleur & Black Mottled that would develop mottles much older than this, sometimes skipping this juvenile stage completely. If you can, try to track the quality of mottling, juveniles through to adulthood, & see what produces the best tri-colour (mottled) adult pattern. Alot of mine were late bloomers, & this is probably why I rarely witnessed excess white/extreme mottling gradually develop over years in old birds that I had bred. There are probably other modifiers to the mo locus that are influencing expression.


Well older is a nicer dilemma than too young. I will take your advice to pay closer attention to the mottling and how it progresses.

My creatures put up with enough photo sessions as it is...that is all they need now. Me with one more reason to click pics... They'll be sending YOU a postcard...insisting you STOP suggesting this non-sense immediately!! crazy


Originally Posted By: KazJaps

------------------------
Also there is variation to wheaten & id+ dermal expression. Smyth did suggest that eWh diluted id+ leg pigment more than ey. Wheaten Modern Games have dermal - willow legs, but I don't know if these are eWh or ey, &/or may have another dermal allele similar to id+.


Tuck this away and keep it in mind during id+ discussions...


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
There is also variation of I - Dominant White with effects to leg colour (& Fm). Once again, old genetics research indicated I diluted dermal pigment, but you can see e+ I id+ Red Pyles with blue legs (eg Red Pyle Belgian Bearded Bantams, Dutch bantams, OEG, etc).


Fascinating...the results from one set of research, proven to be in question because the birds shout to us otherwise. That's all we need, more excuses to spend MORE time oogling the birds to tell us what is real and not real.


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
So leg colour genetics is quite complex, lots of modifiers, & dependent on specific combinations (with exceptions not uncommon to basic rules).


As I go further into this, no kidding it is complex. There could be a whole book by itself written about skin/leg/facial gear colours...happily, many of the breeds and varieties I have just ask for the more traditional yeller chicken legs. I get enough common people zoning out over comb types...I think I will sit tight on shanks, faces, and skin for the moment. wink

Funny thought tho, I do remember looking at these Booteds and puzzling...OK, the beak is dark, but are the legs, AND the legs are dark, but why not the beak, AND so why and how can these two places on the same bird be different? It never bothered me enough because the genetic books did not seem to address this all that well...but I thought maybe one day I would get assistance to help figure some more out.

You have indeed helped me realize, it IS complicated and going to take time and effort to get just some of it figured out.

As far as the Fancy is concerned, it is not becoming simpler, but EVEN more complex...maybe I should quit poking it with a stick and let some of it rest...bwa ha ha...not likely, eh?

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112524 - 03/27/14 01:05 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Off topic:


Is this front boy Bl/bl+ blue-laced too (& with B)? Did he have any phaeomelanin on the breast, or mainly eb pattern.

With some of my Bl/bl+ Japs, I could get blue-laced with Silver Blue or Lemon Blues. It didn't seem like Ml was needed for good blue lacing.



Blue dilution was a nice surprise from the White bantam Wyandottes. Saw it first in the F1's when I crossed White with Silver Laced. Blue does make for a nice additional white enhancer.


Same day in April 2011, the cockerel you asked about:




No real red pigments to start out on the chest, but as age progressed (you will see in the photos that follow), I find many of these cuckoo/barred express more phaeomelanin and less nice edging. He goes as of today, almost like a roundish area of no edging on his chest except a few "V"'s of black followed by white, some shafting, and then the phaeomelanin.


Same male in Dec 2012. He's a single dose of cuckoo/barred, his counter part (on the right) is double, so pure. My spunky lil' men; these two are one quarter the size of the large fowl Chanteclers they bunk out with and were used to begin my bantam Chantecler project--the large fowl females had to accept them or I would not have gotten any babes. Might look like cute widdle plushy pets but HA! Beware the open beak...they bite tho it is frankly quite laughable.




Same males today. Still got the same attitude they had December 2012...risk life and limb for you getting these pics... Beak bites...ha ha ha...spunky feist misters! smirk





Some pretty funky colour patterns...from chevrons to transverse bars to just beetle green to some white in the primaries--quite the mess but pretty for pretty's sake I guess.







I have had much MORE extreme colour expressions; more vivid orange, more green.





Partridge cuckoo/barred male, Nov 2013.




Blue cuckoo/barred female.

Nov 2012




March 2013




When cuckoo/barred and I expect perhaps pattern gene (Pg) is in the mix, I often notice white starbursts in the lower end of the feather tips.

Not sure your interest but hope I hit the mark on some of it.

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112527 - 03/29/14 11:17 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Thanks for the photos.

He's close to a barred cocopop at this stage;

*Ie, on the breast: the dark eumelanin outer tip lace, inner silver lace, & gold centre.

All very pretty smile

It doesn't seem like you got the following het. phenotype?



See on the upper breast there is lacing, but more of a spangle on lower breast.

This is a laced Wyandotte crossbred, but not F1 - multiple crosses (neighbour's rooster). Mau (previous poster) also got a similar het. lace/spangled phenotype (without barring). Can't remember now what crossbreeding project? But I do remember it was a heterozygous phenotype (not breeding true).

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#112530 - 03/30/14 01:34 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Off topic:


Is this front boy Bl/bl+ blue-laced too (& with B)? Did he have any phaeomelanin on the breast, or mainly eb pattern.

With some of my Bl/bl+ Japs, I could get blue-laced with Silver Blue or Lemon Blues. It didn't seem like Ml was needed for good blue lacing.
the source stated no Bl/ found on those birds, the light grey you see is the effect of Barring

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#112531 - 03/30/14 08:18 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Marvin]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
Blue dilution was a nice surprise from the White bantam Wyandottes. Saw it first in the F1's when I crossed White with Silver Laced. Blue does make for a nice additional white enhancer.


I took this to mean that there was both B and Bl coming from the Whites.

I asked about whether any phaeomelanin on the breast in the front boy, as it's not uncommon with some dark (heavily melanised) Laced Wyandotte or similar het. crosses for the flank area to be dark (particularly young birds).
---------------------------
The following is a mottled blue barred ER/e+ Bl/bl+ B/b+ mo/mo d'Uccle:


Here is his mottled blue barred S/s+ son (bit lighter). The mother was a Silver Millefleur (no Bl):


The above barred line was crossed to quail line, producing pseudo Blue Crele:


-----------------------------
Unfortunately the year the barred laced-blue Japs segregated, I had major digital camera & computer problems - lost the photos. They came from crossing a white/barred line with laced-blue line, F1 B backcrossed to laced-blue line, producing beautiful Silver Blue barred & laced.

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#112532 - 03/31/14 01:52 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Thanks for the photos.


You are most welcome and thanks for yours...nice intriguing eye candy! grin


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
He's close to a barred cocopop at this stage;

*Ie, on the breast: the dark eumelanin outer tip lace, inner silver lace, & gold centre.

All very pretty smile


Really? "Barred Cocopop" is close to this ... I guess I shoulda ordered the Serama colour genetics book when I ordered Sigrid's Extremeties book from Jerry, eh? LOL


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
It doesn't seem like you got the following het. phenotype?



See on the upper breast there is lacing, but more of a spangle on lower breast.

This is a laced Wyandotte crossbred, but not F1 - multiple crosses (neighbour's rooster). Mau (previous poster) also got a similar het. lace/spangled phenotype (without barring). Can't remember now what crossbreeding project? But I do remember it was a heterozygous phenotype (not breeding true).


Hmm, wouldn't say that I could not "make" a heterozygous phenotype like your boy photographed above. I seem to have some of the necessary expressions, but not all in the same male...not yet?


Here are four more bantam Wyandotte boys...




This male certainly does not have cuckoo/barring. Has diamonds in saddle and hackle and black beetle green tail.




He's silver and laced with no red leakage in his plumage.




But have a look at his sides. I bet I could add a barred/cuckoo hackle and saddle to this lacing and pseudo-spangling? But is that an objective then? wink




Originally Posted By: Marvin
the source stated no Bl/ found on those birds, the light grey you see is the effect of Barring


Sorry I was not clearer Marvin. I DO have blue dilution in the bantam White Wyandottes...it first made itself known when I produced a subtle BLUE laced male...stared at him for a long time because he eventually ended up looking NOT black and it bothered me. I always figured blue dilution was suppose to be like being pregnant...you are or you are not! laugh




The Blue Laced male is on the far left of this photo of bantam Wyandottes. A Silver Laced or "black" edged Wyandotte is on the far right and there two females are in the middle of the group.


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
Blue dilution was a nice surprise from the White bantam Wyandottes. Saw it first in the F1's when I crossed White with Silver Laced. Blue does make for a nice additional white enhancer.


I took this to mean that there was both B and Bl coming from the Whites.

I asked about whether any phaeomelanin on the breast in the front boy, as it's not uncommon with some dark (heavily melanised) Laced Wyandotte or similar het. crosses for the flank area to be dark (particularly young birds).


CORRECT! I do have blue dilution from the White Wyandotte bantams; great white enhancer.


So here's a few guesses and I could be way, way wrong but hey, why not get a bit of egg on the face, once in a while, eh? I've nothing much to lose by asking and can surely only gain by humiliation in public! crazy




Chest views...and thinking from left to right, there is;

Blue Bl/bl+, Black bl+/bl+ and Splash Bl/Bl?

Been puzzled by this one male on the far right and wondering his genetic makeup because he certainly looks odd being a cuckoo but light...I am thinking perhaps the SPLASH (Bl/Bl) would explain him and his creamy shades of colour expression? Have more photos of him on the side and backs of the three but run outta space for pics on this one post now.

I do not have lavender here...know that much...no Isabelle or Porcelain.

If this is stupid, then just say so, but I do figure the male in the middle is BLACK.

Size of the cuckoo barring is about the same size, so probably both males on left (Blue) and middle (Black) are what? A single dose of B and maybe the one on the far right I labelled Splash is homozygous for B/B because he looks to have thinner coloured markings...could be my imagination too.




This male on the right is a lighter version of the male KazJaps said was "close to barred cocopop" in his Dec 2012 photos but this male has no "lacings," so betting he is more just a barred/cuckoo with red leakage (autosomal red or even impure in the s-series; gold-s+/silver-S) in wing bows and saddle mostly. Lacks that "lacing." I would expect he is more a candidate then for "Barred as in Crele" even with the defects of partial white in the primaries?


Sorry about your data issues KazJaps...I have digital photos that are in some really old harddrives too. More canine colour genetic oddities than the birds so much...still wouldn't mind revisiting them.


So how "off topic" are we allowed to go before we bring the reign of "smilies" down upon us? Tee hee...crushed into proper decent order with a big ol' grin, eh? whistle

Misbehaving by running wild so is it time to start a new thread or?

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112535 - 03/31/14 03:46 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Regarding mo/mo. Yes, there is old genetics research saying that mo dilutes leg pigment. But, there are plenty of mo/mo exhibition varieties with blue/slate legs (eg Millefleur Dutch Bantams, Sablepoots, Millefleur & Black Mottled Belgian Bearded Bantams, etc).

There is probably a correlation of excess white in mottled/exchequer varieties also contributing to paler leg colour, especially obvious where excess white feathers are in foot feathers.


Way way too kewl to be alive now...this just happening... laugh


http://www.chickencolours.com/pagina10.html

Sigrid says on her website:

Quote:
Pretty much BREAKING NEWS for the breeders of mottled who got whites as well...


Going off to read this... grin

Tara


Edited by Canuck_Bock_RAT (03/31/14 03:48 PM)
Edit Reason: quote function correction!

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#112537 - 03/31/14 04:36 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
Very interesting thread!
I raise Mille Fleur Dutch (from Holland) and have worked for some years to get blue legs--They still hatch with lovely orange feet, legs. Some became light blue in a year or two, but most now have nice blue legs, short shanks, by 5-6 months! Yes, Cuckoo held the light legs tight for a LONG time. And selection has let the Blue layer develop. Sigi gives the Mille Fleur's complicated genetics the reason. I work with phenotypes and family lines--I do not raise the numbers to work out the real answers in shorter time.

Appreciate your posts--I keep realizing that classroom time would help me mark up my books in the parts I must try to remember! And to those who have answered and have given information I envy---- THANK YOU.


Edited by CJR (03/31/14 04:41 PM)

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#112538 - 04/01/14 03:56 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: CJR]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
So Fm would compensate the effect of mo/mo on the shanks?

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#112539 - 04/01/14 09:24 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Henk69
So Fm would compensate the effect of mo/mo on the shanks?

Probably does. But then, usually id+ alone is enough to produce Millefleur with blue shanks.

Sigi was discussing the following paper:

Kinoshita K, Akiyama T, Mizutani M, Shinomiya A, Ishikawa A, et al. (2014) Endothelin Receptor B2 (EDNRB2) Is Responsible for the Tyrosinase-Independent Recessive White (mow) and Mottled (mo) Plumage Phenotypes in the Chicken. PLoS ONE 9(1): e86361. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0086361
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3900529/

The above paper was discussed in this thread:
The Coop: Mottled mo a EDNRB2 mutation, & white mo^w allele

With the following, I wasn't sure if they meant they were going to research mo^w white together with Fm (in one bird):
Quote:
Fibromelanosis (Fm) of the Silkie chicken is a mutant phenotype of pigmentation, which exhibits extensive pigmentation of dermal layer of skin and internal connective tissues. This phenotype is caused by a duplication of a genomic region containing EDN3, which is a ligand of the EDN–EDNRB system and has a major role in melanocyte proliferation [25], [26]. To generate the birds with mo^w/mo^w and Fm/- genotype and to examine their phenotypes provide us a clue for understanding the function and molecular mechanism of the EDN–EDNRB2 signaling system in Aves.

*I didn't see where they test breed to produce mo^w/mo^w and Fm/ in this paper. Maybe a future project?

Some of the above research team were also involved with research into Fm too:

Shinomiya A, Kayashima Y, Kinoshita K, Mizutani M, Namikawa T, et al. (2012) Gene Duplication of the endothelin 3 gene is closely correlated with Fibromelanosis (Fm), the hypermelanization of the internal organs of Silky chickens. Genetics 190: 627–638.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276631/

------------------
Photos of mice with mutations on EDN3 (chicken Fm locus equivalent) & EDNRB (chicken mo locus equivalent), both producing piebald spotting phenotypes:

EDN3:
http://www.informatics.jax.org/image/pheno/MGI:3587318

EDNRB:
http://www.informatics.jax.org/image/phenoSummary/allele/MGI:1856148

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#112594 - 04/10/14 04:52 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Sigi was discussing the following paper


As always, thank you for the links. laugh


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
With the following, I wasn't sure if they meant they were going to research mo^w white together with Fm (in one bird):


I agree...I would like to know what exactly they are researching too...getting more and more complex...an understatement...juggling so many "could be this" but then again, "this might be at play too..." My head hurts from thinking too much... wink


Originally Posted By: KazJaps

*I didn't see where they test breed to produce mo^w/mo^w and Fm/ in this paper. Maybe a future project?


One may hope! I will have fingers (and toes) crossed this is a future project they will do. grin


Originally Posted By: CJR
Very interesting thread!
I raise Mille Fleur Dutch (from Holland) and have worked for some years to get blue legs--They still hatch with lovely orange feet, legs. Some became light blue in a year or two, but most now have nice blue legs, short shanks, by 5-6 months! Yes, Cuckoo held the light legs tight for a LONG time. And selection has let the Blue layer develop. Sigi gives the Mille Fleur's complicated genetics the reason. I work with phenotypes and family lines--I do not raise the numbers to work out the real answers in shorter time.


I was hoping you would post...yes, I was humming and haaing over the colour genetics found in the Dutch bantams. I see alot of "slaty blue" in the shanks & toes listed in the ABA SOP recognized varieties...only the Cuckoo variety has "slaty white" and you mention "Cuckoo held the light legs tight for a LONG time." So interesting...so many angles to complicate all this...

Thank you for adding your comments! Any photos of the slaty blue shanks to share here perhaps? Always love a nice bird with those coloured legs! grin


Originally Posted By: CJR
Appreciate your posts--I keep realizing that classroom time would help me mark up my books in the parts I must try to remember! And to those who have answered and have given information I envy---- THANK YOU.


We all should do more reading and studying...but then again, who would be feeding, cleaning, and refilling all the necessary supplies to keep the very beings we are discussing alive & well? I keep hoping elves (in my case, my luck it would be Gremlins!) will magically do some spring cleaning for me so I could play more genetics here but alas...no lightening our loads, eh?

Never feel bad for spending time on the chooks over "being in the classroom." Without good chooks, we have nothing to discuss, now would we?


I wrote to Dr. Crawford on March 31, and just today, he has had time to reply. We are all busy...busy minding the finer points of the hobby!

So without further adieu, here is what the great editor of the poultry genetics "Bible" has to say about my update to him...

I sent him a link to the recent study from 2013 on Fibromelanosis.

http://tru.uni-sz.bg/ascitech/3_2013/001-Fibromelanosis%20in%20domestic%20chickens.pdf

Plus some notes I have been compiling from books and of course, from having all these most helpful persons contributing here.


Quote:

Hello Tara.

Sorry to be slow in replying. All of a sudden there was spring and everything needed doing. Meanwhile have given your epistle considerable thought.

I reread what late beloved J. Robert Smyth wrote in his chapter on colors in THE BOOK. It seems the major genes are valid, but there is a lot of doubt about inheritance of the minor variations, especially when it comes to 'gypsy face' and dermal melanin. If there is more recent literature, I am not aware of it. Have also done a lot of remembering about the stocks that I used to have and the variations in them.

I doubt that you are dealing with fibromelanosis as in Silkies. They are blue-black inside and out. Curious that in my Silkie stock there were both rose comb and single comb, and both blue-black and ordinary white skin with red comb and wattles. I used them in crosses for linkage tests - and found most of the hybrids had spots or blotches of blue-black inside and out.

Instead I think you are dealing with dermal melanin (id) and complex interactions with other things including recessive white. You mentioned that fanciers prefer dark legs in Mille Fleur Booteds. Your White Booteds came out of Mille Fleur and almost certainly they are recessive white segregates that brought along the desired dark legs. Recessive white is notorious for causing 'sooty' white down, and for a long time it was the culprit in 'sooty' connective tissue in commercial broilers. The phenotype that you have may be 'new' because you recognized it - but keep in mind that feather fanciers are quick to cull anything that doesn't meet the precious Standard of Perfection - as the cattle people used to say in BSE days 'shoot - shovel - and shutup'.

Meanwhile my Golden Sebright stock likewise had both rose combs and single combs, and gypsy faces and ordinary red/white ones.

So keep on sleuthing. Hope the above is helpful. Best I can do these days.

Best wishes, Roy.



And I think I shall send him a link to Sigrid's article on Silkies entitled "What Wattles...?" as he may find that interesting in regards to the variations on not just wattle expression but also comb types in the Silkies.


As always, Dr. Crawford is a hoot and a half...such a funny like shoot, shovel and shut up...our former Premier here of Alberta was quoted as saying that over "mad cow" and well, he has now retired and suffers with dementia. Ah to live the life of a politician...no thanks! crazy

I suppose one of the dark skinned gypsy White Booted females needs to die so I can dissect them to see how deep the dark pigment goes. Oh how very grisly to be a fly on the wall during that procedure...should be hilarious me clicking pics and cutting and more clicking...sounds like a good plot for a horror movie.

I am not sure I am any further ahead with gypsy face and dark legs in the White Booteds...spring is here, so maybe some more breedings will reveal some more curiosities for me...or more confusions. One shall see, I guess.

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112595 - 04/12/14 12:03 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Wow!

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#112596 - 04/12/14 05:30 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Henk69]
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Wisconsin
"Heel low???" Does that have something to do with dog training?
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

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#112597 - 04/12/14 09:03 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Bushman]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: Henk69
Wow!


A good "wow" I hope? wink


Originally Posted By: Bushman
"Heel low???" Does that have something to do with dog training?


Only if perhaps it means the herdy dogs have trained ME to take the very best of care of their STOCK...LMBO


Two red girls--Red Standard Chantecler Medusa and Red Australian Cattle Dog Fixins ...

Hmm, is there something to be said about that colour RED?? More to it than just simple genetic explanation that it is phaeomelain pigments at play ... that the red colour = spirited beasts??




Note the firey chestnut red colourations of these females...one in feathers and one in hair. mad




Giving each other the "eye" as we say in stock herding...measuring each other up...getting down to brass tacks...??




Thankfully the two ladies decided to take this altercation outside... smirk

It ended without contact when Medusa realized she was the only chicken outside and she scurried back home to her flock for the evening. tired


My salutations are explained...

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=103165&page=1

Page 3...fourth post...

#103195 - 03/30/12 09:11

Hmm...and I am sure you will enjoy the Chantecler topic of the thread as well Mike... grin


Quite frankly...if we did not own stock dogs...I cannot see any reason why we would not also own stock...as in our poultry. For us, we can't seem to have one without the other...they compliment each other so well--like peas and carrots, chocolate and peanut butter...dogs and chooks! grin

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112600 - 04/14/14 05:15 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Henk69]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Henk69
So Fm would compensate the effect of mo/mo on the shanks?
yes, while Id/ will restrick its effect to the shanks..

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#112602 - 04/14/14 11:03 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
I suppose one of the dark skinned gypsy White Booted females needs to die so I can dissect them to see how deep the dark pigment goes. Oh how very grisly to be a fly on the wall during that procedure...should be hilarious me clicking pics and cutting and more clicking...sounds like a good plot for a horror movie.


Well, I went thru my freezers and guess I forgot...I have a two year old White feathered, dark skinned/shanked gypsy faced Booted hen that passed early last fall. cool

Defrosted her and opened up the chest cavity releasing the breast bone, cut from vent to throat. Took off some of the White feathers on one side of the body. Light was less than favourable for photos so...

What exactly should I be taking photographs of?

Thinking showing how her skin colour is without feathers blocking the dark skin, thinking maybe a few organs opened up to show the depth of pigment...not sure what all to do. frown

I've seen photos of Silkie meat that was way lighter than hers looks.

I really don't know what exactly the procedure (like a post mortem?) should be, but will be taking photos tomorrow in natural light.

Thinking the leg shank might be an area to cut and pull back some of it...normally I don't use the feet, so never bother with them and that will be new to me messing with.

Use to preparing chickens/turkeys/waterfowl to eat, not query about their pigments! I guess this will be me sleuthing, eh? grin

Not exactly sure how to do this and what might interest others, so suggestions are most welcome.

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112603 - 04/15/14 03:38 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 495
Loc: Australia
Refer to the following for an image of a silkie carcase that has been 'opened up' - as you can see, the muscles themselves are not black (or even grey), but the connective tissue around the muscles is; hence, you should look at the membranous connective tissue - around the heart for example, which will be black/grey in a bird with Fm (as opposed to the heart itself, which will remain pink/red); similarly, the membranous covering of the trachea will also be dark grey/black in a Fm bird.

Cheers,
htul

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#112606 - 04/15/14 02:01 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Post 1 of 2

Heel low:



WARNING...VERY GRAPHIC PHOTOS OF DEAD BIRDS TO FOLLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!



Thank you for this reply! grin

Originally Posted By: Htul
Refer to the following for an image of a silkie carcase that has been 'opened up' - as you can see, the muscles themselves are not black (or even grey), but the connective tissue around the muscles is; hence, you should look at the membranous connective tissue - around the heart for example, which will be black/grey in a bird with Fm (as opposed to the heart itself, which will remain pink/red); similarly, the membranous covering of the trachea will also be dark grey/black in a Fm bird.

Cheers,
htul


I remembered the heart...but got so enGROSSED (ha ha ha) with the whole thing, forgot the trachea. I tossed her back in the freezer...I can do some more pics if you want the trachea...but here goes with what I did get...

Probably too many photos, so will be in two posts I expect.

White Feathered Booted Bantam Female with dark shanks and gypsy face.


First, one side with feathers...




Flip her over...now other side with some feathers plucked.





This is so morbid but anyway... crazy






A base line...this is a Booted White Feathered male with Pinto shanks...snow is fast approaching here, so busy prepping for that...so only really posted the female. I can dig into him another day. Overcast now.




Female








Heart, intact.




Heart cut open.




Hmm, that's the max for photos...

Now that I've posted the heart...love for us to continue onwards.... blush

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112607 - 04/15/14 02:03 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Post 2 of 2

Heel low:











WARNING...VERY GRAPHIC PHOTOS OF DEAD BIRDS TO FOLLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!















Bones...interesting, I would say these are DARK bones...maybe not Ayam Cemani BLACK but dark.








Legs or shanks...







So heart, bones (one section of ribs) and dark toes on one footsy... grin




Now that we have had a window inside one of these dark faced, dark shanked White Feathered Booted Bantam females...


Is this id+ or FM or both id+ and Fm? Oh heck or some other thingmabobby or have I just grossed myself out for no real reason?? sick

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112609 - 04/15/14 04:26 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 495
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Htul
Refer to the following for an image of a silkie carcase that has been 'opened up' - as you can see, the muscles themselves are not black (or even grey), but the connective tissue around the muscles is; hence, you should look at the membranous connective tissue - around the heart for example, which will be black/grey in a bird with Fm (as opposed to the heart itself, which will remain pink/red); similarly, the membranous covering of the trachea will also be dark grey/black in a Fm bird.


Cheers,
htul


Of course, had I posted the link (as I had originally intended), perhaps it may have been more useful!:

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002412 (the image is about half-way down the page)

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#112610 - 04/15/14 04:32 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 495
Loc: Australia
This one is a bit of a challenge - because there is a lot of clotted blood within the heart etc - it is a bit harder to tell; if you do get the chance to re-thaw, it may be useful to give a good rinse before further photography.

I think, if you have Fm involved, it is only one copy of Fm (ie. Fm/fm+) - I would expect more uniformly dark connective tissue.

I do, however, think that there is involvement of Fm here (eg. based on the inner surface of the breast bone: compare and contrast with your "pinto shanks" breast bone. It would be very interesting to have Dr Crawford's thoughts on whether or not traditional Fm is involved with this additional information.

Also, from the paper I linked to earlier (as key areas to focus on, should you re-thaw the bird of interest):

"The term Fibromelanosis was coined to denote the association of pigmentation with internal connective tissue [1] and can be readily seen in the trachea, pericardium, blood vessels, sheaths of muscles and nerves, gonads, mesenteries of the gut, and periosteum of bone"

Cheers,
htul

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#112612 - 04/15/14 05:43 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Just as a curiosity: I recall stumbling upon some sites, where people claimed the blood was supposed to be black too.

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#112613 - 04/15/14 05:57 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
One thing is for certain. It is not wild-type. You don't get black skin on the whole body from id+ alone.

And these are not E or ER based for the traditional gypsy-face phenotype (remember they are Millefleur based whites -probably e+). Plus you can see this with the beaks - it's not epidermal pigment, but deep pigment.

Direct link to the paper:
Figure 1. The Silkie chicken displaying the Fibromelanosis phenotype.
link to image

-------------------
Not what is going on in your booted bantams, but...

A recently published 2014 paper, not Fm, going by the abstract:

Accumulation of melanin in the peritoneum causes black abdomens in broilers.
Wang J, Wang Y, Luo C, Qu H, Shu D.
Poult Sci. 2014 Mar;93(3):742-6
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24604870

I've only seen the abstract, but it's probably about the trait in broilers that Dr Crawford alluded to.

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#112616 - 04/16/14 12:58 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: Htul
Of course, had I posted the link (as I had originally intended), perhaps it may have been more useful!:

http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pgen.1002412 (the image is about half-way down the page)


I kinda wondered...but no worries, thank you. smile

The prepared Silkie looks alot less bloodied...much more professional and far less gruesome! LOL

Not sure if cleansing the specimen along the way was the usual practise and was afraid if I did wash and clear away most of the excess "oozings," it would be thought to be improper as in destroying beyond recovery or removing wanted evidence. I never "drained" or bled her or the male when they died as they were never meant for consumption, let alone as a displayed "public" dissection. eek


Originally Posted By: Htul
This one is a bit of a challenge - because there is a lot of clotted blood within the heart etc - it is a bit harder to tell; if you do get the chance to re-thaw, it may be useful to give a good rinse before further photography.

I think, if you have Fm involved, it is only one copy of Fm (ie. Fm/fm+) - I would expect more uniformly dark connective tissue.

I do, however, think that there is involvement of Fm here (eg. based on the inner surface of the breast bone: compare and contrast with your "pinto shanks" breast bone. It would be very interesting to have Dr Crawford's thoughts on whether or not traditional Fm is involved with this additional information.


I appreciate your helpful insights.

Yes, one dose of Fm if it is involved would make reasonable sense...not BLACK and yet certainly, not like the regular chicken carcasses one gets at the grocer's.

I don't want to bother to keep poking at Dr. Crawford if his first observations (externally mind you!) still stand as correct...just id+ and rec white and some variations of such...all in an excessive state I am just coming to grips at recognizing myself now as I keep working with these Booted Bantams. I am slow here at getting up to speed and will never match strides with him...no matter how hard I try, I am not in his league.

I do believe Roy should see the "inside" of one of these White feathered dark pigmented Booteds so he may too make a new judgement given the further new internal evidence...if nothing else it will amuse him to no end at my unorthodox attempt to go "lab rat!" crazy

Afterall, I never got completely shot down and he HAS wickedly egged me on with the "So keep on sleuthing." Love that he encourages us to "have fun with genetics." You may easily see why his students love him so much and his style of teaching helped broaden interest in this formidable study. He never strikes me as a man that had on a pristine white lab coat and never marvelled at the mysteries of what drives us to keep a few chooks about. He knows first hand why we keep silly chickens, turkeys, and he even crossbred some sheep (his "just motley sheep")...because he keeps that kind of magic alive in his heart like we do.

My major concern was that what I had just done with the post-mortem exam or necropsy photos would not properly exhibit enough details for a decent conclusion of any sort. I am certainly NO pathologist! Not even vaguely able to mimic their skills. wink

Rick still figures me messing with these dark pigmented chickens is nothing short of trouble. I keep talking about them and he keeps asking, "Is something terribly wrong with them?" Some where along the line he is gonna get served up what I deem "black chicken" and he'll be sure to accuse me of making him eat crow!


Originally Posted By: Htul
Also, from the paper I linked to earlier (as key areas to focus on, should you re-thaw the bird of interest):

"The term Fibromelanosis was coined to denote the association of pigmentation with internal connective tissue [1] and can be readily seen in the trachea, pericardium, blood vessels, sheaths of muscles and nerves, gonads, mesenteries of the gut, and periosteum of bone"

Cheers,
htul


This quote is great..."pigmentation with internal connective tissue."

Gives me some simple terms to help explain the parameters of what Fm is suppose to be...internal pigment...and where to find it.

I expect in a practical Hobbiest's sense, unless you DO open a bird up, you really don't have much of a valid way to prove or disprove this phenomena. Birds need to die for regular folk to see inside.

Roy knows I don't prefer to "whack" perfectly happy living things to answer queries that can wait for the more natural end to cycle and then be discovered. I expect he knows I'll keep poking at this until I get my pound of flesh that says one thing or another. smirk


Well I put the female's heart back in her chest cavity so I could find it if needed...so it was well shielded and had not frozen up solid quite yet. I found this quite amusing, plucking her heart out and rushing in to clean it up to take more photos--sure glad I live way out where the powers that be can't keep close tabs on me.

Best I am able to do given the time of day. Not in natural light but under fluorescent lights which are said to cast a grey tone, so could be misleading but here it is.

Heart rinsed.




Looks surprisingly large...so I put a black serrated steak knife handle beside the chicken heart for colour (desperate to find a common shade of black) and for size comparison as a point of reference.




Above without flash and below with flash. Not sure this is much of what you want to see even...it is dark but no darker than what I would expect to see in say a beef heart. Maybe I need natural light and to pull it apart even more...connective tissue, right? So the membrane or tissue that surrounds the heart perhaps.

I feel so useless...want to hand you the scalpel and say, "Have at 'er!" shocked





Cannot say I was not chuckling and thinking of the great Bill Cosby's rendition of "Chicken Heart"...almost hear its beating even now... eek



Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Just as a curiosity: I recall stumbling upon some sites, where people claimed the blood was supposed to be black too.


Oh great...now I am going to go round, late at night in my dark caped outfit with a pair of fangs taking blood samples of my Booteds...bwa ha ha--muttering to myself, "But is the blood BLACK?" ... <<joking!>> Bad enough right now that I am afraid anyone that finds these last photographs I took of me posting dead birds and the chicken HEART and they will have me committed...ha ha ha. Could be my last post here for a while?

Obscene things done to a dead chicken...none of this would even fly as food preparation because even past what Rick says, the Booted Bantams I have are too pathetic as meat birds for even "soup stocks!" My scrawny feisty good egg layers. blush

The blood I witnessed was purply but certainly not all that "black" as a general rule. Black blood is frightful stuff--been warned if the blood from a puncture wound was ever black, you were pretty much a goner. mad


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
One thing is for certain. It is not wild-type. You don't get black skin on the whole body from id+ alone.

And these are not E or ER based for the traditional gypsy-face phenotype (remember they are Millefleur based whites -probably e+). Plus you can see this with the beaks - it's not epidermal pigment, but deep pigment.


Most helpful and agreed...based on e+ duckwing and glad to hear the "deep pigment" prognosis. Just because to me it looks odd does not mean that genetically speaking, anything "odd" is in this line of Booted Bantams.

I don't want to flog a dead horse and keep harping that something is up in them. Sometimes "we hear hoof beats and mistakenly think zebras" and truly it really is nothing special worth someone keeping on turning more rocks over because of.

Thank you for your valuable insights.


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Direct link to the paper:
Figure 1. The Silkie chicken displaying the Fibromelanosis phenotype.
link to image

-------------------
Not what is going on in your booted bantams, but...

A recently published 2014 paper, not Fm, going by the abstract:

Accumulation of melanin in the peritoneum causes black abdomens in broilers.
Wang J, Wang Y, Luo C, Qu H, Shu D.
Poult Sci. 2014 Mar;93(3):742-6
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24604870

I've only seen the abstract, but it's probably about the trait in broilers that Dr Crawford alluded to.


Thank you for the links. Got more reading to do! laugh

I was intrigued when Roy mentioned that "'sooty' connective tissue in commercial broilers." There always seems to be research money to throw at making pristine clinical meat products at the factory farms.


This all, is a lot of fun... laugh

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112619 - 04/16/14 06:03 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 495
Loc: Australia
I'm still inclined to think that "normal Fm" is involved here - particularly given the dark connective tissue around the aorta. I just remembered that the connective tissue around the gizzard also seems to be a good indicator of Fm presence.

re: the following non-white chicks that you showed earlier: did any of these grow to be dark-skinned juveniles or adults?

Cheers,
htul


Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
Heel low:

Looking up the genetic recipe for Mille de Fleur, I expected either eb or eWh for e-series base (MCR1)...never paid a great deal of attention to the quailish colour pattern, the Egyptian eye makeup, the head V on the chick down. I am NOW and concluding that the MDF Booted's I have are based on duckwing e+

To me eb Brown and its grey slate down...in the adults I could see it as eb, imagine it...whatever.




But the chick down...that part I could NOT deny. They are duckwing...no denying it no more...

This one in October 2012...Hmm...




But this one in March of this year. Nope, cannot deny it no more...the birds NEVER lie...listen to what they have to tell us...this is DUCKWING!



The V shaped on the top of the head...heart shaped sweety.



The Egyptian eye liner slash...




I knew the chick was dark...lookit the eye lid is even dark.




And the legs...again dark...but look this time!




Yellowish tinge to the bottoms...I know, I know careful on the assessment of the shank colours TOO early...things like the egg yolk yellow cartenoids have to run thru the chick's system before we can fully assess REAL adult leg colour but interesting none the less!




A precursor to my questions regarding dark skin...this hen in 2011...she haunted me...but wasn't I suppose to be thinking id+...not Fm...but hmmm...




That mulberry face...so Silkie like of her...I looked but did not want to question what I had accepted to be correct...but then again...

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#112621 - 04/16/14 07:54 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Htul]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
I am sure its Fm, one should update Dr. Crawford on some of this pics, he may change his mind bout id+ c/c interaction

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#113018 - 07/15/14 10:35 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Marvin]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: Marvin
I am sure its Fm, one should update Dr. Crawford on some of this pics, he may change his mind bout id+ c/c interaction


As am I...more than just id"+" but Dr. Crawford was sent the same information and photos of the autopsy and no reply to say he has changed his stance on this any.


Originally Posted By: Htul
I'm still inclined to think that "normal Fm" is involved here - particularly given the dark connective tissue around the aorta. I just remembered that the connective tissue around the gizzard also seems to be a good indicator of Fm presence.

re: the following non-white chicks that you showed earlier: did any of these grow to be dark-skinned juveniles or adults?

Cheers,
htul


Well at long last (made a change to how we were incubating by converting a small 8'x12' feed building to a hatching house), I have more baby Booted Bantams on the ground...ten thus far and more set.

Of the ten Booted Bantams hatched yesterday; one Pinto skinned in the White feathered variety (with another one dark and two light skinned) and one Pinto in the Mille de Fleur feathered variety (with another two dark and three light skinned).



Shows Seven of the Ten hatched yesterday.

KazJaps...do all the day old MdF's in this above photograph l00k e"+" Duckwing or is there e"b" Brown in this too...the not crisp Dark V's in the head colouring and not dark around the eyes (Egyptian eye liner) in two of the MdF's have me going back to RE-speculating about e"b" Brown as the e-series base in some of the MdF's (maybe?). I am suspecting there was not just e"+" in this line or am I incorrect?


So got two more Pinto skin patterned Booted Bantams to post here(one White feathered and one MdF feathered). I believe I have not posted any day old pictures of the Pintos, so this should fill that gap.

Because I KNOW the variations in skin colour are easiest to spot when the feathers are damp...this one is not even hatched outta the egg to show instantly the portion of the wing that is PINK and not DARK skinned.



Below, the same chick dried off more. SEE what I mean, far more less prevalent...this PINTO pattern in dry plumage. Dark mulberry face with dark shanks but portions of the skin are not dark.


I am leaning to this one being likely a female as all the really darkest ones we have had are girls.

So these HALF dark/HALF light pigments (the Pintos) may be explained as a single dose of Fm perhaps--certainly NOT two doses Fm/Fm then I expect that makes them wholly dark with no light skinned areas.

And because a male may have ONE id"+" or TWO doses of id"+" or NO id"+" at all whereas the female is or is not id"+" as it is gender linked so she cannot be impure like the males.

Is this a logical explanation to explain that the Pintos HAVE to be caused by Fm and not id"+"?





The one above has the fully dark skinned legs but hold on a second...there is another kewl one to see here.

L00kit this happening...




Yeh, kewl eh? This one is a Mille de Fleur feather pattern (not a White feathered one) and lookit the right foot! Major kewl. The outside of the foot is dark skinned. The left foot is totally not dark but light skinned. This then shows PINTO in the feets...not just the shanks or on the body.

I figure I need to keep in mind that chickens have genetics that are not always where the left side of the body mimics/matches the right side--a chicken can have one dark leg, one light (as we can obviously SEE above in living colour!).



Two dark skinned MdF's



Feet above, heads below




Light skinned MdF's




Three white feathered; two light skinned, one dark skinned.




Of the ten Booteds thus far...

3 - Dark skin in one White & two MdF
2 - Pintos in one White & one MdF
5 - Light skin in two Whites & three MdF


As these Booteds continue to hatch out for us...I guess tracking the gender might be helpful and certainly to keep photos going to see if the depth of colour alters much with age. Amount of mottling (which develops over time in the feathers of some--whiter with age/whiter in males sometimes) might be of interest too for some.

Any other suggestions as more of these Booted Bantams hit the ground?

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#113069 - 08/15/14 05:01 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Thanks for the update wink

Good to see the Fm traits in the non-whites, rule out any correlation to c - recessive white.

I would keep track of the non-Fm white skinned day-olds too, see if they are id+ or Id (ie track if leg colour changes as they age).

--------------------
P.s., checked next door's red cattle dog (Red Heeler) & he has a brown nose - probably b/b, but one litter from him to a red/tan border collie/kelpie cross (red collie white markings with tan points) produced some 'yellow' pups (& other colours), ie he has both b/b brown and Agouti yellow genetics.
The same border collie/kelpie girl crossed to a fawn/tan kelpie produced some red pied pups (lots of white), as it turns out the fawn/tan male had the ticking gene - masked the white on paws/chest (ie probably some Aust. cattle dog way back in the line).
The Australian Kelpie are another great farm dog - beautiful natures & gentle on stock (except chickens - need to be trained smile ).

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#113137 - 09/01/14 03:04 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

So far as I am able to tell, the non-Fm white skinned day olds DO NOT seem to develop dark pigment...born light skinned and stay this way. Are you suggesting that if the leg colour changes from day old expression (from no pigment as in light) to dark pigment...that then I would be able to identify this as expression of gender linked id"+" perhaps? Sorry, it has been a long and exciting summer of incubator hatchings and more are set to hatch each week till end of September! VBG

I currently have fifty-one Booteds that have hatched every week beginning in July 14 of this year that I have been tracking. Tracking so much with photos, I have bored them to utter tears...most fall asleep so often we also benefit from eye lid colour observations too! Dandy, eh?? VBG

<<WARNING...some unwashed chicken toes are in these photos that follow in the next four posts...so if that is unsettling...avert your eyes! LOL I don't wash chicken toes for photos...Barn fresh, eh? 8-p >>




Males; left to right - MdF male with light feet & dark beak, MdF male with one dark and one light foot, MdF male with dark face, comb, beak & feet but NO mottling (Quail-like pattern).

Statistically the numbers are pretty even in feather plumage; 26 Whites and 25 Mille de Fleurs. :-D




Various White Feathered Booted Bantams




Various MdF Feathered Booted Bantams



So far I can tally up:

- White with light skin in both genders.



Pair on left with light skin. Pair on right with dark skin.




Day old example of white feathered with dark bill/face but light legs/feet.




Day old examples with light faces and light feet/legs.


- Whites with dark skin in both genders.



Male on left, female on right




Day old example - they seem to stay this dark...if there is a yellowish tinge (from yolk pigment?) to feet bottoms, that colouration will disappear over time but dark is staying dark.


- MdF with light skin in both genders.



Pair of MdF on left in 2nd and third spot with half/half male on right of them. On each end is the pair (male far left / female far right) of MdF with no mottlings.




Day old example with pigment in beak.

-- page 1 of 4; September 1, 2014 --

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#113138 - 09/01/14 03:04 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Continuation from page 1 on Sept 1, 2014



Males...Would these be for sure Fm's too with dark bills but different leg colours? Half Half boy is on the far end. Red comb, coloured bill, differing leg colourations. Being male, he could be id"+" and Id?




Would these two Booteds have Fm with the dark beaks? Note comb colour differences...nearest is dark comb (Fm) and furthest is red comb (Not Fm?)...agh...I think summer and hatching are wearing down my retention levels for anything I am suppose to know by now...Bwa ha ha!

All I can see is "pretty birdies?" of differing colours. LOL




- MdF with dark skin; unsure of some genders or possession of mottling as some are too young to decipher yet.



Left has NO mottling and should by now...right one is young enough it could have mo or not...have to wait to find out.




Left is e"+" day old and right is eb day old chick. Dark skin!




Day old example of dark skin with some yellow in foot bottoms that disappears.


- MdF with no mottling (so not really MdF--more like Quail) in both genders. This mottling expression takes a few weeks to be expressed in my line. So never quite sure in a day old MdF if it will mottle up or not.



Should be expressing mottling if he has any to express. Note dark iris!




- Expression of excessive mottling in a MdF with light skin.







- Variations of White Feathered birds where dark face is combined with light skin or with dark skin - like these are TWO separate items able to be inherited without regard to each other (Fm and Id or something else like e-series?).




White feathers with dark face and light legs OR light face and dark legs...opposites.

-- page 2 of 4; September 1, 2014 --

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#113139 - 09/01/14 03:05 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Continuation from page 2 on Sept 1, 2014

- That the one half and half male (one light foot/shank, one dark foot/shank that I showed a day old photo of here) is thrilling me as he is one that did not decide to be dark skinned or light skinned but one side of each.

Showing his mottling beginning...









Sorry, I find that he is half and half so very kewl!




- Lots of MdF with light skin but dark beaks.

- Pintos in both White and MdF feathers. May be redefining "Pinto" to be Booteds that have dark pigments that begin at the hock joint and go upwards...so light feet but dark pigments from hock upwards...including face (gypsy) or just the bill.



See the pigment starting at hock joints?


- E-series based day olds in the e-series of eb or e"+".



Left e"+" and right eb





Top e"+" and bottom eb



-- page 3 of 4; September 1, 2014 --

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#113140 - 09/01/14 03:05 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Continuation from page 3 on Sept 1, 2014

- Seems to be a fair amount of black in feathers of some MdF's...(recessive black expression?)



Pair of no mottling MdF coloured Booteds on left...then three MdF's with black feathered in heads.



- Sometimes the white feathered ones are a bit yellow downed too.



Heaven forbid I have to track yellow from white white down colour too...hee hee...this year has been very interesting and quite enough different colours to keep a junky like me in over whelming razzle dazzles of colourations. Yee haw!


I am finding the birds missing mottling (like how do you tell a White feathered bird has NO mottle genetics unless you test breed & get coloured bird progeny to SEE if there are mottles or not...no pigment whether on tip of feather or the whole dang feather is uh, um...WHITE or NO pigment!) do tend to have DARK irises as they mature out. Like my white Feathered females from 2011 with the Halloween BOO eyes I suppose!

Any with dark skin keep that dark skin colouration...any with light skin keep it too...



Past the half/half male that had the dark pigment creep up further on the one side that was pigmented--but he kept them light toes of his. He'll sit on my finger he is SO use to me fussing about l00king at him...

"Not you again...OK, OK...




Let's get this over with so I can just be a chicken again!" :-(




So that's a bit MORE of an update...not done though...more eggs ready to hatch in Buster the Bator...so who knows what will be next for me.


Originally Posted By: KazJaps

--------------------
P.s., checked next door's red cattle dog (Red Heeler) & he has a brown nose - probably b/b, but one litter from him to a red/tan border collie/kelpie cross (red collie white markings with tan points) produced some 'yellow' pups (& other colours), ie he has both b/b brown and Agouti yellow genetics.
The same border collie/kelpie girl crossed to a fawn/tan kelpie produced some red pied pups (lots of white), as it turns out the fawn/tan male had the ticking gene - masked the white on paws/chest (ie probably some Aust. cattle dog way back in the line).
The Australian Kelpie are another great farm dog - beautiful natures & gentle on stock (except chickens - need to be trained smile ).



As far as Australian Cattle Dog colourations...the not black noses may be from b (several kinds) series as in chocolate (Kelpie in background perhaps!) OR as in HyBlade's case...he was DNA colour tested as B/B and e/e (as in like the Golden Labrador Retrievers)...could not express black in his nose, but did have black tips in his hair coat. Was a strange situation that one! LOL

Kelpies are very kewl breed...lots of neat coloured dogs...no GOOD dog (or chook) may ever be a BAD colour, eh?

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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#113412 - 12/16/14 11:11 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Just a quick update with two photos.

Interesting to see as this season's hatches become more adultish....


Falling asleep...

Left to right is dark skinned MdF, then light skinned White feathered, half and half foot coloured boy MdF, MdF with light skin, and finally, the ones I wanted to see more of...White feathered with dark skin (good for breeding into MdF for one dose of rec white to give brighter feather cololurations but keeping proper shank/toe colour).



Clapped my hands to get them to WAKE UP!

What I find amusing (perplexing at times too really), is that some have dark faces, some have light faces--does not matter the feather colour or the shank/toe/skin colours of light or dark.

Like one may take a pair of scissors, cut up pieces of coloured parts on the body of the birds and slap them all together in any which way. I suspect I will eventually get a handle on this inheritance of light or dark parts if I keep at this...long enough for it to sink in for me! wink

Certainly entertaining...I have some more growing up with a patchwork of face/beak colour, shank/toe colour, and feather colour; either MdF or White feathered.

Doggone & Chicken UP!

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

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