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#110826 - 10/19/13 07:06 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1046
Loc: Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw

To native English speakers: Is the first letter a in Brahma pronounced as a long vowel or short?


In most places here it is spoken as "ah" as in cheetah, but some folks say it with a long a as in play. So both pronunciations are used.
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#112462 - 03/21/14 02:47 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Bushman]
Wieslaw Offline
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
New question: who and when "created the notion" of eb?

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#112463 - 03/21/14 04:27 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 946
Loc: Germany
I think, it was the Great Dr. Morejohn in 1955
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=101777

OCR-Version
Plumage Color Allelism In The Red Jungle Fowl (Gallus Gallus) And Related Domestic Forms (Morejohn, V. 1955)
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/4/519.pdf
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#112467 - 03/22/14 12:16 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Yes, it was Morejohn 1955 that named eb brown after the chick's brown down (both eb brown & es speckled head mutant chicks found in Brown Leghorns).

Brumbaugh & Hollander (B&H) published an abstract in 1963, where they list:
Quote:
ep partridge (Morejohn's eb "brown")


Later, Brumbaugh & Hollander 1965 explain that they found the same Morejohn eb traits in Dark Brown Leghorn, Partridge Rock & Pencilled Wyandottes. Because Smyth & Bohren 1949 (published a short abstract) had named the Dark Brown Leghorn allele ep, predating Morejohn's 1955 eb nomenclature, then B&H thought that Morejohn's eb brown should be changed back to eP partridge to acknowledge Smyth & Bohrens' earlier research.

But, in the same year, Smyth 1965 published a paper, noted he had extracted eb allele traits from recessive white Plymouth Rocks (crossed with Light Brown Leghorn, segregated in F2), plus found the same allele in Partridge Plymouth Rocks. Smyth quotes B&H 1963 abstract, it seems didn't see B&H 1965 paper explaining the ep nomenclature reasoning.

Smyth...
Quote:
Brumbaugh and Hollander (1963) have suggested the descending order of dominance for the E alleles to be as follows:
E-eWh-e+-eb-es-ebc-ey *.

These workers indicate that Morejohn's eb and their ep (partridge) are the same allele, but apparently prefer the ep symbol. Since Morejohn (1955) preceded the above, and since the brown gene undoubtedly affects phenotypes other than those designated "partridge," the author has substituted eb for ep in the above list of alleles.

* Note, B&H 1963 actually wrote eP partridge (Morejohn's eb "brown")

All quite ironic the reasonings for switching back & forth smile

---------------------------

While I have the quote handy, the following from Smyth (1965) on the phenotype of e+/eb :
Quote:
The F1 down color was wild type with some increase in mottling along the front edge of the dorsal stripe and foreface. However, unlike the results of Morejohn (1955) this was not consistent enough to allow clear separation of the e+eb and e+e+ down phenotypes.

The F1 juvenile males were essentially wild type but showed more extensive red streaking on the breast than does pure wild type.
Adult F1 males were indistinguishable from e+e+ males, and for this reason, in this particular case, the segregation ratios in the backcross and F2 matings are based on down color.

The F1 juvenile and adult females differed from wild type only in that intermediate amounts of dark stippling showed in the salmon breast. In the F2, all brown female chicks turned out to have non-salmon, stippled breasts, while the wild type female chicks were similar to either the wild type or F1 parent.


--------------------------
References:

A multiple allelic series affecting feather color in the domestic fowl.
Smyth, J. R., Jr., and B. B. Bohren,
Poultry Sci. 1949. 28: 782. [Abstract]

Plumage Color Allelism in the Red Jungle Fowl (Gallus Gallus) and Related Domestic Forms
Morejohn, V.
Genetics. Jul 1955; 40(4): 519–530.
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/4/519.pdf

A further study of the E pattern locus in the fowl.
Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. F. Hollander,
Genetics, 1963. 48: 884. [Abstract]

A further study of the E pattern locus in the fowl.
Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. F. Hollander,
Iowa State Journal of Science. (1965) Vol 40, No 1. : 51-64.

Allelic Relationship of Genes Determining Extended Black, Wild Type and Brown Plumage Patterns in the Fowl:
J. Robert Smyth, Jr.
Poultry Science (1965) 44 (1): 89-98
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/1/89.abstract


Edited by KazJaps (03/22/14 12:51 AM)
Edit Reason: added references

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#112474 - 03/22/14 10:58 AM Re: Historical question [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 946
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Yes, it was Morejohn 1955 that named eb brown after the chick's brown down (both eb brown & es speckled head mutant chicks found in Brown Leghorns).

Brumbaugh & Hollander (B&H) published an abstract in 1963, where they list:
Quote:
ep partridge (Morejohn's eb "brown")


Later, Brumbaugh & Hollander 1965 explain that they found the same Morejohn eb traits in Dark Brown Leghorn, Partridge Rock & Pencilled Wyandottes. Because Smyth & Bohren 1949 (published a short abstract) had named the Dark Brown Leghorn allele ep, predating Morejohn's 1955 eb nomenclature, then B&H thought that Morejohn's eb brown should be changed back to eP partridge to acknowledge Smyth & Bohrens' earlier research.

But, in the same year, Smyth 1965 published a paper, noted he had extracted eb allele traits from recessive white Plymouth Rocks (crossed with Light Brown Leghorn, segregated in F2), plus found the same allele in Partridge Plymouth Rocks. Smyth quotes B&H 1963 abstract, it seems didn't see B&H 1965 paper explaining the ep nomenclature reasoning.

Smyth...
Quote:
Brumbaugh and Hollander (1963) have suggested the descending order of dominance for the E alleles to be as follows:
E-eWh-e+-eb-es-ebc-ey *.

These workers indicate that Morejohn's eb and their ep (partridge) are the same allele, but apparently prefer the ep symbol. Since Morejohn (1955) preceded the above, and since the brown gene undoubtedly affects phenotypes other than those designated "partridge," the author has substituted eb for ep in the above list of alleles.

* Note, B&H 1963 actually wrote eP partridge (Morejohn's eb "brown")

All quite ironic the reasonings for switching back & forth smile

---------------------------

While I have the quote handy, the following from Smyth (1965) on the phenotype of e+/eb :
Quote:
The F1 down color was wild type with some increase in mottling along the front edge of the dorsal stripe and foreface. However, unlike the results of Morejohn (1955) this was not consistent enough to allow clear separation of the e+eb and e+e+ down phenotypes.

The F1 juvenile males were essentially wild type but showed more extensive red streaking on the breast than does pure wild type.
Adult F1 males were indistinguishable from e+e+ males, and for this reason, in this particular case, the segregation ratios in the backcross and F2 matings are based on down color.

The F1 juvenile and adult females differed from wild type only in that intermediate amounts of dark stippling showed in the salmon breast. In the F2, all brown female chicks turned out to have non-salmon, stippled breasts, while the wild type female chicks were similar to either the wild type or F1 parent.


--------------------------
References:

A multiple allelic series affecting feather color in the domestic fowl.
Smyth, J. R., Jr., and B. B. Bohren,
Poultry Sci. 1949. 28: 782. [Abstract]

Crosses between chickens having extended
black, New Hampshire (Columbian), Dark Cornish,
and Dark Brown Leghorn color patterns showed
that each pattern differed from the others by a
single autosomal gene. Crosses in which three
or four of these characters were involved simultaneously
also segregated in a manner indicating
the existence of an allelic series consisting of three
and possibly four genes. Black (E) is dominant to
the black-red (ep) pattern as in the Cornish and
Brown Leghorn and is incompletely dominant to
Columbian (e). The Columbian pattern (e) is
almost completely dominant to Cornish but is less
completely dominant to the Brown Leghorn pattern.
The data are insufficient at this time to determine
the relationship of the Cornish and Brown Leghorn
patterns. The data suggest that these patterns are
produced by two alleles at the E locus thus giving
a four allele series. It is possible, however, that
further investigation may show these two patterns
to be produced by a single allele at this locus and
that the differences between them is caused by
genes modifying the basic black-red pattern and
resulting in a three allele series.


Plumage Color Allelism in the Red Jungle Fowl (Gallus Gallus) and Related Domestic Forms
Morejohn, V.
Genetics. Jul 1955; 40(4): 519–530.
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/40/4/519.pdf

A further study of the E pattern locus in the fowl.
Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. F. Hollander,
Genetics, 1963. 48: 884. [Abstract]
Digital version will follow
A further study of the E pattern locus in the fowl.
Brumbaugh, J. A., and W. F. Hollander,
Iowa State Journal of Science. (1965) Vol 40, No 1. : 51-64.
Digital version will follow

Allelic Relationship of Genes Determining Extended Black, Wild Type and Brown Plumage Patterns in the Fowl:
J. Robert Smyth, Jr.
Poultry Science (1965) 44 (1): 89-98
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/44/1/89.abstract
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#112477 - 03/22/14 11:20 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
The following paper is quoted sometimes as the first use of ER (Birchen allele), & that R = restricted:

The Case of the Blue Andalusian
William A. Lippincott
The American Naturalist , Vol. 52, No. 614 (Feb. - Mar., 1918) , pp. 95-115
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2456139

But it is also quoted as the first use of E - Extended Black (cited by B&H 1965).

Yes, Lippincott used "E" for 'extension of black', & "R" for 'restricted', but R restriction was in reference to the Bl gene - dose dependent restriction (meaning dilution) of black (eumelanin), not ER birchen/brown red phenotype - an increase in phaeomelanin to E.

Lippincott wasn't sure at the time why the 1:2:1 ratios (black:blue:blue-splash) of blue breeding, ie didn't know whether 2 loci involved with blues or just one locus with two alleles (ie E and R alleles of same locus), etc.

So yes, E was used in reference to extension of black, but was not directly in reference to the MC1R E locus, & neither was ER in reference to ER - Birchen allele.

The problem was Lippincott really needed a way to express wild-type 'non-blue' in to the equation instead of "black", plus nomenclature to define between heterozygotes & homozygotes.

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#112482 - 03/23/14 05:38 AM Re: Historical question [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 946
Loc: Germany
Funny ... it should have been clear (just the title for itself) that this study has investigated the genetic of blue ...
Er Er = black X eR eR = blue-splashed => F1 Er eR blue;
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#112484 - 03/23/14 07:36 AM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3751
Loc: Denmark
Thanks a lot guys. ey was also introduced by Morejohn. While we are at the subject, what about eWh?(So that we have them all here)

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#112486 - 03/23/14 03:29 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 946
Loc: Germany
May I hijack the thread for an other question?
Could it be, that the historical Dominique chicken were B & Pg based?
The Schilling birds, dated to 1915, show a kind of "concentric barring".
http://www.huehner-info.de/forum/showthr...l=1#post1064281
Quote:
On the other hand, any who have had the pleasure of seeing good specimens can appreciate the erratic pattern of the Dominique’s barring. One particular trait that is lost in many of the modern strains is the "eye" that is to be seen at the end of each feather. The shape of the bars and the rounded end of the feather causes this. One could almost call the final bar – "lacing". If you are unsure of this pattern, look closely at A.O. Schilling’s artwork in the black and white Standard of Perfection.

http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Why_American_Dominiques.html
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#112487 - 03/23/14 03:46 PM Re: Historical question [Re: Redcap]
Theropod Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 12/23/13
Posts: 189
Loc: Missouri, USA
I think it is very, very possible as American Dominiques are of great interest to me. I am incorporating American Game into one of my lines to increase feather quality / size. Game strain also carries Pg. The Pg I hope will help compensate for faster feather growth and keep bar contrast up to control for smokey look that would otherwise occur with faster feather growth.

I think the American Dominique has more than one locus that slows feather growth promoting crisper barring. Impact of these is not as extreme as in Barred Plymouth Rock where crispness of barring even more important.

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