Page 4 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#112507 - 03/25/14 10:24 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Regarding mo/mo. Yes, there is old genetics research saying that mo dilutes leg pigment. But, there are plenty of mo/mo exhibition varieties with blue/slate legs (eg Millefleur Dutch Bantams, Sablepoots, Millefleur & Black Mottled Belgian Bearded Bantams, etc).

There is probably a correlation of excess white in mottled/exchequer varieties also contributing to paler leg colour, especially obvious where excess white feathers are in foot feathers.

With these two:


I had lines of Millefleur & Black Mottled that would develop mottles much older than this, sometimes skipping this juvenile stage completely. If you can, try to track the quality of mottling, juveniles through to adulthood, & see what produces the best tri-colour (mottled) adult pattern. Alot of mine were late bloomers, & this is probably why I rarely witnessed excess white/extreme mottling gradually develop over years in old birds that I had bred. There are probably other modifiers to the mo locus that are influencing expression.

------------------------
Also there is variation to wheaten & id+ dermal expression. Smyth did suggest that eWh diluted id+ leg pigment more than ey. Wheaten Modern Games have dermal - willow legs, but I don't know if these are eWh or ey, &/or may have another dermal allele similar to id+.

There is also variation of I - Dominant White with effects to leg colour (& Fm). Once again, old genetics research indicated I diluted dermal pigment, but you can see e+ I id+ Red Pyles with blue legs (eg Red Pyle Belgian Bearded Bantams, Dutch bantams, OEG, etc).

So leg colour genetics is quite complex, lots of modifiers, & dependent on specific combinations (with exceptions not uncommon to basic rules).

Top
#112508 - 03/25/14 10:51 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Off topic:


Is this front boy Bl/bl+ blue-laced too (& with B)? Did he have any phaeomelanin on the breast, or mainly eb pattern.

With some of my Bl/bl+ Japs, I could get blue-laced with Silver Blue or Lemon Blues. It didn't seem like Ml was needed for good blue lacing.

Top
#112522 - 03/27/14 01:01 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
If you have Id segregating, you could make white-legged Whites from your Dutch Booted Bantams alone.

Eg, need to segregate:

e+ Id/Id (or Id/-) fm+/fm+ c/c

That's the going theory, ie that your Millefleur had something like Id/id+ Fm/fm+, masking the full expression of Fm, giving a pseudo id+ phenotype.


Thank you, more options to contemplate...all very good and much appreciated.

Now I wonder how many "pair" breedings I will find myself doing to attempt to substantiate some of this. laugh


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
I am sure that if Dr Crawford had seen the photos of what you are segregating in the whites now, that he would have added Fm as a possible candidate. You don't get pigment skin gypsy faced, etc on e+ id+ (wild-type) based birds like you are showing.


I appreciate his help would only go as far as the data and birds on the ground I sent him photos of.

I may have to update him on where this has gone. Give him some amusements to entertain him while winter revisits the Prairies here. He is such a neat, brilliant, giving person and very funny to converse with. He cracks me up constantly and average people figure genetics is a DRY topic! grin


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
But, it is strange that Fm should pop up in Dutch Booted Bantams. Would be interesting to know if it is the same Fm sequence as found in Silkies, etc.


I agree. I am not one to cross breeds unless for a real good reason--done that once with a lot of intrepidation.

I thought I read some place in one of these many dark pigment studies that Holland was one of the places that had some dark pigmented chickens historically. I'll have to try and remember where I read that and revisit it.

If it was Silkies introduced BERFORE I acquired them (have to be 15 years prior), would expect more Silkie traits along for the ride that would surface...more toes, impure vulture hocks, possible crests, non-single combs, silkie feather, and the shape would be way different. The Booteds I have are pretty scrawny with a more "eggy" shape than I would expect outta a Silkie. The Booteds simply don't seem to have the other baggage that would say Silkies were in the mix to give them the Fm.

Not sure how one would entice someone with access to a lab to even want to test these dark skinned, legged, faced Booteds to compare them with Silkies. Waving money to cover a testing fee don't even get noticed sometimes! Needs something worthy to get people in the right places to bother with it.

Suppose to be some commercial R&D aspects on the go regarding dark pigmented chickens being desirable for certain meat markets. Maybe have to keep crowing up a storm, eh?

All I know is the birds never lie...l00kin' at you with a gypsy mulberry face and shocking red glowing eyes! whistle

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

Top
#112523 - 03/27/14 01:01 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Regarding mo/mo. Yes, there is old genetics research saying that mo dilutes leg pigment. But, there are plenty of mo/mo exhibition varieties with blue/slate legs (eg Millefleur Dutch Bantams, Sablepoots, Millefleur & Black Mottled Belgian Bearded Bantams, etc).]


Seems there are always those rule breakers. Not answers that are black or in this case, white explained solidly enough we can say for certain.


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
I had lines of Millefleur & Black Mottled that would develop mottles much older than this, sometimes skipping this juvenile stage completely. If you can, try to track the quality of mottling, juveniles through to adulthood, & see what produces the best tri-colour (mottled) adult pattern. Alot of mine were late bloomers, & this is probably why I rarely witnessed excess white/extreme mottling gradually develop over years in old birds that I had bred. There are probably other modifiers to the mo locus that are influencing expression.


Well older is a nicer dilemma than too young. I will take your advice to pay closer attention to the mottling and how it progresses.

My creatures put up with enough photo sessions as it is...that is all they need now. Me with one more reason to click pics... They'll be sending YOU a postcard...insisting you STOP suggesting this non-sense immediately!! crazy


Originally Posted By: KazJaps

------------------------
Also there is variation to wheaten & id+ dermal expression. Smyth did suggest that eWh diluted id+ leg pigment more than ey. Wheaten Modern Games have dermal - willow legs, but I don't know if these are eWh or ey, &/or may have another dermal allele similar to id+.


Tuck this away and keep it in mind during id+ discussions...


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
There is also variation of I - Dominant White with effects to leg colour (& Fm). Once again, old genetics research indicated I diluted dermal pigment, but you can see e+ I id+ Red Pyles with blue legs (eg Red Pyle Belgian Bearded Bantams, Dutch bantams, OEG, etc).


Fascinating...the results from one set of research, proven to be in question because the birds shout to us otherwise. That's all we need, more excuses to spend MORE time oogling the birds to tell us what is real and not real.


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
So leg colour genetics is quite complex, lots of modifiers, & dependent on specific combinations (with exceptions not uncommon to basic rules).


As I go further into this, no kidding it is complex. There could be a whole book by itself written about skin/leg/facial gear colours...happily, many of the breeds and varieties I have just ask for the more traditional yeller chicken legs. I get enough common people zoning out over comb types...I think I will sit tight on shanks, faces, and skin for the moment. wink

Funny thought tho, I do remember looking at these Booteds and puzzling...OK, the beak is dark, but are the legs, AND the legs are dark, but why not the beak, AND so why and how can these two places on the same bird be different? It never bothered me enough because the genetic books did not seem to address this all that well...but I thought maybe one day I would get assistance to help figure some more out.

You have indeed helped me realize, it IS complicated and going to take time and effort to get just some of it figured out.

As far as the Fancy is concerned, it is not becoming simpler, but EVEN more complex...maybe I should quit poking it with a stick and let some of it rest...bwa ha ha...not likely, eh?

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

Top
#112524 - 03/27/14 01:05 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Off topic:


Is this front boy Bl/bl+ blue-laced too (& with B)? Did he have any phaeomelanin on the breast, or mainly eb pattern.

With some of my Bl/bl+ Japs, I could get blue-laced with Silver Blue or Lemon Blues. It didn't seem like Ml was needed for good blue lacing.



Blue dilution was a nice surprise from the White bantam Wyandottes. Saw it first in the F1's when I crossed White with Silver Laced. Blue does make for a nice additional white enhancer.


Same day in April 2011, the cockerel you asked about:




No real red pigments to start out on the chest, but as age progressed (you will see in the photos that follow), I find many of these cuckoo/barred express more phaeomelanin and less nice edging. He goes as of today, almost like a roundish area of no edging on his chest except a few "V"'s of black followed by white, some shafting, and then the phaeomelanin.


Same male in Dec 2012. He's a single dose of cuckoo/barred, his counter part (on the right) is double, so pure. My spunky lil' men; these two are one quarter the size of the large fowl Chanteclers they bunk out with and were used to begin my bantam Chantecler project--the large fowl females had to accept them or I would not have gotten any babes. Might look like cute widdle plushy pets but HA! Beware the open beak...they bite tho it is frankly quite laughable.




Same males today. Still got the same attitude they had December 2012...risk life and limb for you getting these pics... Beak bites...ha ha ha...spunky feist misters! smirk





Some pretty funky colour patterns...from chevrons to transverse bars to just beetle green to some white in the primaries--quite the mess but pretty for pretty's sake I guess.







I have had much MORE extreme colour expressions; more vivid orange, more green.





Partridge cuckoo/barred male, Nov 2013.




Blue cuckoo/barred female.

Nov 2012




March 2013




When cuckoo/barred and I expect perhaps pattern gene (Pg) is in the mix, I often notice white starbursts in the lower end of the feather tips.

Not sure your interest but hope I hit the mark on some of it.

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

Top
#112527 - 03/29/14 11:17 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Canuck_Bock_RAT]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Thanks for the photos.

He's close to a barred cocopop at this stage;

*Ie, on the breast: the dark eumelanin outer tip lace, inner silver lace, & gold centre.

All very pretty smile

It doesn't seem like you got the following het. phenotype?



See on the upper breast there is lacing, but more of a spangle on lower breast.

This is a laced Wyandotte crossbred, but not F1 - multiple crosses (neighbour's rooster). Mau (previous poster) also got a similar het. lace/spangled phenotype (without barring). Can't remember now what crossbreeding project? But I do remember it was a heterozygous phenotype (not breeding true).

Top
#112530 - 03/30/14 01:34 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Off topic:


Is this front boy Bl/bl+ blue-laced too (& with B)? Did he have any phaeomelanin on the breast, or mainly eb pattern.

With some of my Bl/bl+ Japs, I could get blue-laced with Silver Blue or Lemon Blues. It didn't seem like Ml was needed for good blue lacing.
the source stated no Bl/ found on those birds, the light grey you see is the effect of Barring

Top
#112531 - 03/30/14 08:18 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: Marvin]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
Blue dilution was a nice surprise from the White bantam Wyandottes. Saw it first in the F1's when I crossed White with Silver Laced. Blue does make for a nice additional white enhancer.


I took this to mean that there was both B and Bl coming from the Whites.

I asked about whether any phaeomelanin on the breast in the front boy, as it's not uncommon with some dark (heavily melanised) Laced Wyandotte or similar het. crosses for the flank area to be dark (particularly young birds).
---------------------------
The following is a mottled blue barred ER/e+ Bl/bl+ B/b+ mo/mo d'Uccle:


Here is his mottled blue barred S/s+ son (bit lighter). The mother was a Silver Millefleur (no Bl):


The above barred line was crossed to quail line, producing pseudo Blue Crele:


-----------------------------
Unfortunately the year the barred laced-blue Japs segregated, I had major digital camera & computer problems - lost the photos. They came from crossing a white/barred line with laced-blue line, F1 B backcrossed to laced-blue line, producing beautiful Silver Blue barred & laced.

Top
#112532 - 03/31/14 01:52 AM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Heel low:

Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Thanks for the photos.


You are most welcome and thanks for yours...nice intriguing eye candy! grin


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
He's close to a barred cocopop at this stage;

*Ie, on the breast: the dark eumelanin outer tip lace, inner silver lace, & gold centre.

All very pretty smile


Really? "Barred Cocopop" is close to this ... I guess I shoulda ordered the Serama colour genetics book when I ordered Sigrid's Extremeties book from Jerry, eh? LOL


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
It doesn't seem like you got the following het. phenotype?



See on the upper breast there is lacing, but more of a spangle on lower breast.

This is a laced Wyandotte crossbred, but not F1 - multiple crosses (neighbour's rooster). Mau (previous poster) also got a similar het. lace/spangled phenotype (without barring). Can't remember now what crossbreeding project? But I do remember it was a heterozygous phenotype (not breeding true).


Hmm, wouldn't say that I could not "make" a heterozygous phenotype like your boy photographed above. I seem to have some of the necessary expressions, but not all in the same male...not yet?


Here are four more bantam Wyandotte boys...




This male certainly does not have cuckoo/barring. Has diamonds in saddle and hackle and black beetle green tail.




He's silver and laced with no red leakage in his plumage.




But have a look at his sides. I bet I could add a barred/cuckoo hackle and saddle to this lacing and pseudo-spangling? But is that an objective then? wink




Originally Posted By: Marvin
the source stated no Bl/ found on those birds, the light grey you see is the effect of Barring


Sorry I was not clearer Marvin. I DO have blue dilution in the bantam White Wyandottes...it first made itself known when I produced a subtle BLUE laced male...stared at him for a long time because he eventually ended up looking NOT black and it bothered me. I always figured blue dilution was suppose to be like being pregnant...you are or you are not! laugh




The Blue Laced male is on the far left of this photo of bantam Wyandottes. A Silver Laced or "black" edged Wyandotte is on the far right and there two females are in the middle of the group.


Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Originally Posted By: Canuck_Bock_RAT
Blue dilution was a nice surprise from the White bantam Wyandottes. Saw it first in the F1's when I crossed White with Silver Laced. Blue does make for a nice additional white enhancer.


I took this to mean that there was both B and Bl coming from the Whites.

I asked about whether any phaeomelanin on the breast in the front boy, as it's not uncommon with some dark (heavily melanised) Laced Wyandotte or similar het. crosses for the flank area to be dark (particularly young birds).


CORRECT! I do have blue dilution from the White Wyandotte bantams; great white enhancer.


So here's a few guesses and I could be way, way wrong but hey, why not get a bit of egg on the face, once in a while, eh? I've nothing much to lose by asking and can surely only gain by humiliation in public! crazy




Chest views...and thinking from left to right, there is;

Blue Bl/bl+, Black bl+/bl+ and Splash Bl/Bl?

Been puzzled by this one male on the far right and wondering his genetic makeup because he certainly looks odd being a cuckoo but light...I am thinking perhaps the SPLASH (Bl/Bl) would explain him and his creamy shades of colour expression? Have more photos of him on the side and backs of the three but run outta space for pics on this one post now.

I do not have lavender here...know that much...no Isabelle or Porcelain.

If this is stupid, then just say so, but I do figure the male in the middle is BLACK.

Size of the cuckoo barring is about the same size, so probably both males on left (Blue) and middle (Black) are what? A single dose of B and maybe the one on the far right I labelled Splash is homozygous for B/B because he looks to have thinner coloured markings...could be my imagination too.




This male on the right is a lighter version of the male KazJaps said was "close to barred cocopop" in his Dec 2012 photos but this male has no "lacings," so betting he is more just a barred/cuckoo with red leakage (autosomal red or even impure in the s-series; gold-s+/silver-S) in wing bows and saddle mostly. Lacks that "lacing." I would expect he is more a candidate then for "Barred as in Crele" even with the defects of partial white in the primaries?


Sorry about your data issues KazJaps...I have digital photos that are in some really old harddrives too. More canine colour genetic oddities than the birds so much...still wouldn't mind revisiting them.


So how "off topic" are we allowed to go before we bring the reign of "smilies" down upon us? Tee hee...crushed into proper decent order with a big ol' grin, eh? whistle

Misbehaving by running wild so is it time to start a new thread or?

Thank you kindly,

Tara Lee Higgins
Higgins Rat Ranch Conservation Farm

Top
#112535 - 03/31/14 03:46 PM Re: DARK Rec White Booted Bantam e+/e+ c/c id+/- & Fm? [Re: KazJaps]
Canuck_Bock_RAT Offline
Chicken

Registered: 01/05/12
Posts: 104
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Regarding mo/mo. Yes, there is old genetics research saying that mo dilutes leg pigment. But, there are plenty of mo/mo exhibition varieties with blue/slate legs (eg Millefleur Dutch Bantams, Sablepoots, Millefleur & Black Mottled Belgian Bearded Bantams, etc).

There is probably a correlation of excess white in mottled/exchequer varieties also contributing to paler leg colour, especially obvious where excess white feathers are in foot feathers.


Way way too kewl to be alive now...this just happening... laugh


http://www.chickencolours.com/pagina10.html

Sigrid says on her website:

Quote:
Pretty much BREAKING NEWS for the breeders of mottled who got whites as well...


Going off to read this... grin

Tara


Edited by Canuck_Bock_RAT (03/31/14 03:48 PM)
Edit Reason: quote function correction!

Top
Page 4 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


Moderator:  Admin @ The Coop, Henk69