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#112306 - 03/02/14 08:23 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2806
Loc: Australia
Thank you Redcap smile

I see that the ID dun pit game male tested by Ziehl & Hollander wasn't Ginger Red/Pumpkin based, but a pale Blue Red phenotype (turned out to carry both Bl/bl+ and ID, like a Platinum Red).

There was no mention as to whether homozygous dun ID/ID affected phaeomelanin tones (sounds like it didn't).

I might start another thread discussing the ID dun paper more (as not relevant now to this thread).

Thanks again.

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#113580 - 01/12/15 04:49 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Redcap]
coldfish Offline
Feather

Registered: 05/29/14
Posts: 21
Loc: australia
why are the above birds silver in the hackles and not red like the breast?

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#113584 - 01/12/15 08:36 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: coldfish]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Either is their (otherwise gold) hackle diluted by a mysterious gold diluter or their (otherwise silver) bodies express so called autosomal red.

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#114614 - 07/17/15 05:37 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2806
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Henk69
I would love to see his pictures.

Brian seems to have found the "naked" E-hen!


There are some Silver Aph^I pullet photos on the following webpage by Brian Reeder "Visual “White” in Chickens":
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/visual-white-in-chicken-varieties.html

Pic 1:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-r5bY9F_mGGo/Uyooz5gujJI/AAAAAAAABbs/k-u-sK5-gm0/s1600/applusApfemale.JPG

Pic2:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nT_FdZoTl2g/Uyoo90OFA0I/AAAAAAAABb0/Skc4Kp-O6bs/s1600/Apapplushen.JPG

p.s. - on other web pages Brian suggests that there are two loci, one Aph (Autosomal pheomelanin), and the other "inhibitor of autosomal pheomelanin" (Aph^I).

Need to go, will come back to this...

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#114615 - 07/18/15 12:29 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 954
Loc: Germany
So the Inhibitor of Autosomal pheomelanin (Aph^I) would be even an option to switch off (inhibit) persisting (atavistic) Autosomal red (Ar) in silver varieties?!
Quote:
By Brian Reeder: This gene inhibits the expression of autosomal pheomelanin and further helps to create the “clean white” that hobbyists desire on their silver varieties.
_________________________

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#114617 - 07/18/15 10:52 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2806
Loc: Australia
Here's that info suggesting that Brian thinks there are possibly multiple different loci, multiple factors:

The Expression, Suppression and Interactions of Autosomal Pheomelanin (Aph) in the Domestic Fowl
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/the-expression-suppression-and.html
Quote:
In my earlier work with Aph/S/e+, I chose at that time to describe the two major “platform” factors as ap and Ap+, or Autosomal pheomelanin and absence of autosomal pheomelanin, designating the later with a plus sign to signify wild type based on evidence that the factor derives from the Gray jungle fowl. However, further analysis of subsequent data shows that this is most likely not the case, but rather, that “ap”, now called Aph, and “Ap+”, now called Inhibitor of Autosomal Pheomelanin (Aph^I) are not alleles at the same locus, but are actually two different factors that may not even be found on the same chromosome.

Plus elsewhere he is suggesting that Aph (Autosomal Pheomelanin) is a wild-type factor found in all Jungle Fowl, & that Aph^I is a knockout mutation found in Gray Jungle Fowl, & introduced to Domestic fowl.


Plus he discusses the old term "Autosomal Red", that this is not what he was referring to with "Autosomal Pheomelanin".
Quote:
The visual effect sometimes called ‘autosomal red’ is the combination of those genes that enhance autosomal pheomelanin, making it deeper in tone and saturation. There is no gene ‘autosomal red’ as such, because this visual effect is the composite of multiple genes. Of these genes, the only one that is known and thus fairly well documented is Mahogany, which is often described as a eumelanic restrictor. However, its primary manifestation is to enhance the pigment saturation in the pheomelanic areas, with the strongest effect occurring on those areas of the body that are saturated with Aph.


P.s., he also writes the wild-type of Aph^I (AphI) locus as Aph^i (Aphi) (which is incorrect nomenclature, should be a plus sign, this confused by the misuse of uppercase/lowercase & superscripts with the locus name). Considering he thinks that "Aph" and "Aph^I" are not alleles of the same locus, Aph^I would have been better named something like: Iaph, then the wild-type could be iaph+ (iaph+), & this making it crystal clear that the inhibitor mutation is not an allele of "Aph".

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#114618 - 07/18/15 11:54 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2806
Loc: Australia
There is also this article from Brian:

The Genetic Factors of Silver Phenotypes
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/the-genetic-factors-of-silver.html
---------------------------

Originally Posted By: Redcap
So the Inhibitor of Autosomal pheomelanin (Aph^I) would be even an option to switch off (inhibit) persisting (atavistic) Autosomal red (Ar) in silver varieties?!
Quote:
By Brian Reeder: This gene inhibits the expression of autosomal pheomelanin and further helps to create the “clean white” that hobbyists desire on their silver varieties.


Who knows really, except the effects on that supposedly e+/e+ silver pullet, & others (eg e+ s+) that he has shown.

Unlike what Brian suggests in his articles, it is clear from many genetics researchers & exhibition breeders that Aph^I is not a common mutation in many clean silver domestic chicken varieties.

It's not in the exhibition Silver Duckwing MG bantam line I just purchased, it wasn't in the SL Wyandotte test bred by Moore & Smyth, not in the Silver Fayoumi, etc....
Yet Brian is saying that Aph^I is needed to produce clean silver in many silver varieties, not just Silver Duckwing (he includes Db, Co, etc based ones as well).

Quote:
When S is present instead of s+, along with Co and Db, and Aph, we see brassy silver laced with the palest area being the pheomelanin of the breast, while the rest of the pheomelanic areas are a cream to pale yellow. To secure the cleanest white in silver laced varieties, Aph^I must be present and homozygous, whether Db is present or not.


It seems he is going by phaeomelanin phenotypes only (not considering all specific mutation traits), as he also said that Db was in laced Wyandottes, that RIR were Db, not Co (some exceptions), misrepresents many of the traits of Di (no mention that it is a partial eumelanin restrictor, dilutes dermal leg pigment, etc), Mh, & so on...

So I find it very hard going reading his articles. I wish he would stick to hard data results, as he would have a wealth of information at hand from breeding these long-tails.

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