Page 1 of 14 1 2 3 ... 13 14 >
Topic Options
#24327 - 04/17/09 02:37 AM Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 495
Loc: Australia
I seem not to have a good understanding of this at all! Could I have clarification as to whether popular consensus is that this is a single gene trait or a polygenic trait? I know much has been made of recent work and some photos that apparently provide evidence supporting single gene involvement, but it's still not clear to me if this is generally accepted or not. (For those interested in answering this as a poll, the following may be of use:

http://forum.backyardpoultry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7973831 )

Many thanks,
Htul

Top
#24328 - 04/17/09 04:26 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
I believe there are at least 3 alleles, dunno how much genes.
1st allele the wildtype
2nd allele the palebreasted/non salmon breast type
3rd allele the enhanced type like in serama cocopop coloration

The 2nd type could also be het wheaten or het eb.
The red shoulders of purebreed silver cockerels could be mahogany involvement or another enhanced type of Autosomal red.
I have no trouble breeding intense salmonbreasted pullets and clean white shouldered S/S cockerels from the same parents.

I often get 50:50 ratio's cockerels with non red shoulders (all golden) and red/orange shoulders when crossing silver and gold dutch bantams. Small numbers though.

Top
#24329 - 04/17/09 04:58 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 495
Loc: Australia
Have you ever ended up with red/orange shouldered S/S and e+/e+?

A lot is made of red-shouldered S/S cockerels eg. salmon Faverolles - but I was wondering if that might not be due to eWh/eWh. Is the same also true for e+/e+?

Also, do you think "allele" is the best term? Three distinct 'phenotypes', I would agree with, but 'alleles'?

Top
#24330 - 04/17/09 06:45 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
No S/S with red/orange shoulders unless wheaten based.

No doubt faverolles have some form of red enhancement.

Yes, allele. Just wanted to describe them by a typical phenotype effect.
Most genetic variations are alleles... wink
Except things like position effect (a different locus (translocation) or orientation of the gene alters it's expression).

Top
#24331 - 04/17/09 07:21 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Bushman Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1047
Loc: Wisconsin
I had a strain of S/S, e/e bantams in which the males were all red shouldered and the females looked like normal silver females. Worked for years to clean up the males without outcrossing to no avail. So autosomal red can definitely be present on wild type.
_________________________
Pilgrim in a foreign land and true believer.
1st John 5:11-12

Top
#24332 - 04/17/09 07:42 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Hen-Gen Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 1141
Loc: Island of Fetlar, Shetland
Absolutely concur with Bushman. Have a strain of Blue Silver Duckwing Welsummers, e+/e+, S/S, Bl/bl+ that are all red shouldered in the males. I believe mahogany to be present due to the intense redness of the females breasts.
_________________________
If you have nothing............
......... give it away!

Top
#24333 - 04/17/09 08:54 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sonoran Silkies Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 345
Loc: Arizona
"the enhanced type like in serama cocopop coloration"

I've seen "serama cocopop" mentioned several times, but have no idea what it looks like. Do you have any photos, or at least a description? Thanks

Top
#24334 - 04/17/09 11:38 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
The cocopop serama cockerels are silver hackled, dun or chocolate tailed but their body is buff colored. The purebreed silver version S/S have a wide silver lace around the breastfeathers.
On top of that the cocopops have dark single lacing!

het silver:


homozygous silver can have a white lace between the dark lace and the buff.

Top
#24335 - 04/17/09 05:54 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Blackdotte Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 913
Loc: Australia
I am one of the believers in a single autosomal gene that is responsible for 'Autosomal Red'. It has in fact been noted by researchers from Hutt's time, and differentiated from sex-linked gold s+, but little if any work was done on it until Reeder.
Reeder confused the entire issue, as a result of his ego, by using a genetic symbol Ap ( for Autosomal Pheomelanin) that was already used for another gene, Apterylosis(autosomal nakedness) and ignoring the Somes convention of '+' sub scripts because his ' lack of Autosomal Pheomelanin' was found to be the norm in Grey Jungle fowl not Red Jungle fowl.
Working with a line of silver & gold bantams I was able to eventually produce a pure silver variant from the original gold line.
However it is not as simple as it seems. Interaction of other genes with Ar especially mahogany can have dramatic effects. Mahogany & Ar on a Silver sex-linked bird ,especially if Wheaten based, can & does give gold/buff/red tinted birds, the same can be true of Mahogany and 'lack of Ar' on a sex-linked silver bird.
Salmon Faverolle phenotype is an example. This also is a hypothesis for the (Wheaten) Ko-Shamo and possibly the Pekin.
Gene studies are much simpler when they can be studied in isolation.
David

Top
#24336 - 04/17/09 09:03 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sonoran Silkies Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 10/09/08
Posts: 345
Loc: Arizona
Henk, that is a stunning looking bird, but I don't see the buff. frown

What do the females look like?

Suze

Top
Page 1 of 14 1 2 3 ... 13 14 >


Moderator:  Admin @ The Coop, Henk69