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#115050 - 11/04/15 05:39 AM (Artificial) Surrogate Eggs
Redcap Online   content
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(Artificial) Surrogate Eggs

Maybe Surrogate Eggs could be a way to improve bodyweight and egg size in heritage breeds - in future?


Hideo SOBAJIMA, Yuko MATSUBARA, Hiroshi KAGAMI, Takahiro TAGAMI, Takashi HARUMI, Mitsuru NAITO (2000). Culture of Chicken Embryos Using Aigamo Duck Eggshells.
Japanese poultry science Vol. 37 (2000) No. 3 p. 175-179
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jpsa1964/37/3/37_3_175
/_article/
Quote:
Chicken embryos incubated for 3 days were cultured using Aigamo duck eggshells or chicken double-yolked eggshells. The hatching rates were 18% (2/11) for Aigamo duck eggshells and 30% (3/10) for chicken double-yolked eggshells. The hatched chicks reached sexual maturity and showed normal reproductive performance. The thickness of the Aigamo duck eggshell was almost the same as that of the chicken eggshell, but the eggshell membranes were about three times thicker. The number of pores per cm2 eggshell was about 30% less in the Aigamo duck eggshell compared with those in the chicken double-yolked eggshell. The results show that Aigamo duck eggshells could be used for culturing chicken embryos as a surrogate eggshell.


Yutaka Tahara, Katsuya Obara (2014). A Novel Shell-less Culture System for Chick Embryos Using a Plastic Film as Culture Vessels. The Journal of Poultry Science
Vol. 51 (2014) No. 3 p. 307-312
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jpsa/51/3/51_0130043/_article

Quote:
The development of shell-less culture methods for bird embryos with high hatchability would be useful for the efficient generation of transgenic chickens, embryo manipulations, tissue engineering, and basic studies in regenerative medicine. To date, studies of culture methods for bird embryos include the whole embryo culture using narrow windowed eggshells, surrogate eggshells, and an artificial vessel using a gas-permeable membrane. However, there are no reports achieving high hatchability of >50% using completely artificial vessels. To establish a simple method for culturing chick embryos with high hatchability, we examined various culture conditions, including methods for calcium supplementation and oxygen aeration. In the embryo cultures where the embryos were transferred to the culture vessel after 55-56 h incubation, more than 90% of embryos survived until day 17 when a polymethylpentene film was used as a culture vessel with calcium lactate and distilled water supplementations. The aeration of pure oxygen to the surviving embryos from day 17 yielded a hatchability of 57.1% (8 out of 14). Thus, we successfully achieved a high hatchability with this method in chicken embryo culture using an artificial vessel.






Edited by Henk69 (11/06/15 07:55 AM)
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#115051 - 11/04/15 07:42 AM Re: Journal papers online - reference list [Re: Redcap]
Henk69 Offline
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Do these otherwise hatched chickens lay bigger eggs then?

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#115052 - 11/04/15 09:21 AM Re: Journal papers online - reference list [Re: Henk69]
Redcap Online   content
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Chicks which were hatched from bigger eggs, develop higher body weights and consequently also higher egg weights according to other studies. If this kind of supportive selection with bigger surrogate eggs would be made (in combination with in-ovo-nutrition), You could expect a growing-booster-like effect, as they use in the broiler industry already over many generations, were they use hatching eggs with about 80g and bigger in the meanwhile. So You can expect, that body weight and egg weight would grow with the use of bigger (surrogate) hatching eggs.
Of course this kind of selection is possible on a natural way as well - if You can select and use bigger eggs, e.g. use only hatching eggs of two year old breeding hens with a minimum hatching egg weight which is over 65 g instead of 50 g as used to be in some breeds. But this surrogate egg system could save many years of breeding/selection for bigger eggs in breeds like the Buttercups or Frisian Fowl or Polish, which are known for tiny 50 g eggs or smaller. But that's just my idea, how this artificial surrogate egg system could be used in a positive way.
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#115053 - 11/05/15 04:57 AM Re: Journal papers online - reference list [Re: Redcap]
Henk69 Offline
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I think that they switched cause and effect. Eggsize does not limit how big your chicken will grow.

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#115054 - 11/05/15 05:14 AM Re: Journal papers online - reference list [Re: Henk69]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Absolutely. Years ago my Welsummers laid much bigger eggs than my neighbours Orpingtons.
But I do wonder whether within a breed selection for bigger eggs would eventually result in an increase in body size.
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#115055 - 11/05/15 08:03 AM Re: (Artificial) Surrogate Eggs [Re: Hen-Gen]
Redcap Online   content
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You forget that the most studies are based on commercial lines (layer or broiler).
The results of different studies show, that depending on the egg size the chick (within this selection line) develop better and get earlier laying onset and higher body weight at laying onset - if they were hatched in bigger eggs.
Here are some studies which match this topic (but the studies are focused on meat-type/broiler lines).
http://bfy.tw/1XaL
Rawboned giant breeds as Brahmas are slow growers - maybe also due to the small egg size.
But even in Brahmas it would be possible to select for bigger eggs, as it was done by Joachim Dippold. And it seemed like, that his roosters were huge.
The bigger the egg yolk is, the more energy the chick will get. That's also the reason for in-ovo nutrition.
But finally You can select in one or the other direction, as we can see in Brahma (huge body but tiny eggs).
Many show breeder made the mistake to take only the yearling hens and to cull the two Year old hens over decades, as a consequence many minimum egg weights for hatching eggs have been reduced.
Some breeds "claim" in the meanwhile minimum egg weights of only 50g ... a hundred Years ago they had 60g and bigger. These wise counsels to use only two year old hens for hatching eggs in old poultry books show ancient wisdom, however they are ignored since many decades.

Maybe it would make sense to move/copy the last postings* to another thread - to keep this thread free of discussion?


* Starting with my posting - Title could be (Artificial) Surrogate Eggs
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=115050#Post115050
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#115065 - 11/06/15 10:18 AM Re: (Artificial) Surrogate Eggs [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Online   content
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Thank You Henk, for the Thread-splitting!
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#115066 - 11/06/15 03:16 PM Re: (Artificial) Surrogate Eggs [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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I agree with Henk. I think you have switched cause & effect, or genetics (potential) & environmental effects .

Originally Posted By: Redcap
These wise counsels to use only two year old hens for hatching eggs in old poultry books show ancient wisdom, however they are ignored since many decades.

This is ignored because it is not commercially viable, in an era where commercial broiler breeders are feed restricted to get them to live to breeding age, and commercial production layers are lucky if they live after the first lay season. Yes, egg size may increase SLIGHTLY in the 2nd cycle, but total egg numbers decrease in the 2nd cycle (therefore not uncommon that commercial egg producers don't keep layers through a moult for a 2nd season). So it is a matter of weighing up positives & negatives, & hitting the sweet spot in between initial small pullet egg size & largest egg size in a 2nd cycle lay. D. Caveny has this sweet spot at about between 36 to 40 weeks up (9 to 10 months old up).

The Coop: Bantamising a breed
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=34487
D. Caveny
Quote:
Genetics determines the mature size of fowl. If you will remember the fowl starts laying small eggs around 18 to 23 weeks of age and by 36 to 40 weeks is up pretty to good egg weight..later on they increase slightly. You can set the pullet eggs or the later eggs but they still have the same genes.

R. Okimoto
Quote:
There is a high correlation between larger chicks and faster initial growth, but there isn't a good correlation between chick size at hatch and adult body weight. In a population, chicks that hatch out of smaller eggs usually have a lower initial growth rate, but they grow as large as the average in the population for adult weight. Runts are the exceptions because of genetic defects or disease.

Egg size is correlated with body weight, but different genes affect these traits. You would probably do well to select for smaller egg size when creating bantams, not for adult size, but for viability. Small Leghorns that lay large eggs have problems with prolapse and cannibalism that this causes. Selecting for small body weight will decrease egg size too, but sometimes not enough.


So this is why I think you were mixing cause & effect. Because you select the larger eggs from a 2 year old hen, it doesn't mean that her offspring will be larger at adult age than would her offspring from eggs set from her when she was a pullet laying smaller eggs. It's about both genetics and environmental factors. As both D. Caveny and R. Okimoto have suggested, chicks hatched from small pullet eggs will reach their genetic potential (under optimal feeding/housing/health conditions) the same as the rest of the population for adult weights. Commercial broilers are a different matter as they are lucky to live to 6 - 8 weeks.

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#115067 - 11/06/15 03:51 PM Re: (Artificial) Surrogate Eggs [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Also don't forget that commercial layer genetics breeders are selecting for earlier ages for point of lay, ie modern layer strains start laying at a much earlier age these days.

Redcap, did you find any correlations in your research between "average" egg size of a breed /strain (ie not pullet eggs) and growth rates to mature body weight? I wouldn't have thought that there would be a correlation, unless some strange pleiotropic effect. Would smaller egg size commercial layer strains mature slower than large egg size layer strains? I think it would depend more on adult body size of each strain. Commercial broilers, when you think about it, have some serious deleterious mutations against natural viability & adult health. The extreme growth rate needs to be environmentally manipulated to get them to live to productive adulthood. Free range broilers are slower to mature. Large exhibition /landrace breeds I would have thought are a larger adult size bird too than commercial broilers (not going by weights).

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#115069 - 11/06/15 05:56 PM Re: (Artificial) Surrogate Eggs [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
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So far I can recall, the studies support the "old rule", that the eggs of older hens are the better choice for hatching eggs.
They have the advantage of better hatchability (due to a changed liquid composition of the egg white in contrary to pullets) and better growth rates, early sexual maturity due to the egg size (especially due to the Yolk size). The birds from smaller eggs were rather late bloomer in these studies.
The knowledge that the energy of the egg Yolk contribute to the growth/development and the degree of the body size at sexual maturity/laying onset in these lines lead to the idea of in-ovo feeding (e.g. with Glucose or Amino Acids like Arginin) to reduce the variance in the flocks.

Your are right that the most commercial lines have been selected to "early developers" in contrary to the most show breeds/lines which have been selected in some degrees to "late developers" to get "a better feather/plumage". Good show birds need more time for developement of a perfect plumage. Actually it seems like that many show lines have been selected in some degree for slow developing (feathering?), as this leads to better plumage structure and colouring. Therefore there exist an (continuing) old dispute since more than 100 Years, whether it is possible to unify "Eggs and Feathers" - production and show.
Cross reference:
Originally Posted By: Redcap
Originally Posted By: Redcap
By the way ... could You say me in which volume or in which journal (of 1 - 18) I can find this report exactly?
1903 edited by Henry Norman, Henry Chalmers Roberts World's work Article by "HOME COUNTIES" ; EGGS VERSUS FEATHERS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN POULTRY FOR EGGS AND THE TABLE, AND SHOW POULTRY etc. Pages 649 - 653 . On Page 650 is a scathing indictment of "fancy" breeding of utility fowl. Including the Sussex. This is the year the Sussex Club was founded in England. http://tinyurl.com/yduak3c

https://de.scribd.com/doc/156238632/Eggs-Versus-Feathers
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post25

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=115068&#Post115068
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