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#115746 - 05/07/16 12:02 AM MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
Just hatched some chickens from my wild-type MGB X pullet-line silver pencilled Wyandotte project. Some surprises.

The following the parent line phenotypes, chick down & adult...

Father's line, Modern Game bantam BBRed: e+/e+ (pullet-line, develop gold flitter)



Mother's line, pullet-line Silver Pencilled Wyandotte bantams (poor pencilling in hens Pg/pg+?, males with silver lace/spots on breast & upper thighs)



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Here's what the pure line MGB e+/e+ chicks look like:


Here's what the silver pencilled Wyandotte chicks look like:



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Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:06 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115747 - 05/07/16 12:05 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
Now the F1 chicks. I made it a s+/s+ gold male X S/- female sex-linked cross, so I know what chicks are male or female.

S/s+ male on the left, s+/- female on the right:






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F1 female on the left, male on the right:



Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:09 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115748 - 05/07/16 12:15 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
The following chicks pure line silver pencilled dottes (eb/eb? S with modifiers)

There were two main phenotypes & I was thinking that the lighter chicks were males, darker & more patterned chicks females:



*As a guess (not proven), I was thinking the chick down was autosexing. But I didn't raise enough chicks to adulthood (only one)

The following light chick turned out a male:


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:10 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115749 - 05/07/16 12:30 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
So, not only are the F1 chicks a sex-linked cross (silver-male or gold-female), but they have some autosexing traits...

F1
- Left male, thin reduced eye-stripe, lighter eye-stripe tan colour,
- right female, thick normal e+ eye-stripe:


F1
- Left male, tan colour dorsal stripe,
- right female, normal chestnut colour dorsal stripe:


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Plus there are some minor pattern differences in both genders with the purebred e+/e+ line chicks to the F1 e+/eb? chicks. Eg, the arrowhead stripe is not clean edged (jagged) & a bit smaller. And maybe the s+ chicks are slighter lighter gold.

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Edit:
Note, I don't know from this single cross whether the F1 male chick's paler tan dorsal stripe trait is due to a sex-linked dominant mutation or whether it's an autosomal incompletely dominant sex-influenced mutation, or......?

I know there is a significant chick down modifier in these pullet line SP & partridge Wyandottes as both the s+ partridge & S SP chicks look nothing like unmodified eb (the rest wild-type).


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:12 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115750 - 05/07/16 03:21 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Maybe an additional effect by Id?

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#115753 - 05/07/16 07:25 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
Do you mean Id inhibitor of dermal pigment, not ID dun?

It is a id+/id+ X Id/- cross.

Although I have done similar id+/id+ X Id/- but the mother was B barred too (silver Duckwing male x crele hens). Both S/s+ Id-B/id+-b+ male & S/- id+-b+/- female chicks had the chestnut dorsal stripe.

I'll try to track Id locus alleles, chick down phenotype & genders when I do F2's (taking photos, using leg bands). Plus see if these F1 id+/- pullets have diluted leg colour from any possible modifier.

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The pullet-line Wyandotte modifier(s) lightens the eb s+ chick down a lot too, including the modified central dorsal stripe.
Eg, the following is a UK partridge wyandotte bantam chick (Mau's photo), but very similar is found here in Australia:



Carefoot thought that a modifier he had in pullet-line partridge wyandotte bantams was Di or similar to Di.

Here's Brumbaugh & Hollander's e+/e+ Di/Di chick down (chick on the right)

Reference:
Brumbaugh, John Albert, "A study of the genetic control of black-red pigment patterns in the fowl" (1963).
Retrospective Theses and Dissertations. Paper 2374.
http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/rtd/2374
(link to Figures - colour plates download page)

I don't think I have Di (as above), as het. Di/di+ were expressed in both male & female chick downs, & was the opposite in adults, Di/di+ only expressed in adult females.


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:14 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115754 - 05/07/16 09:59 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Do you mean Id inhibitor of dermal pigment, not ID dun?


Yes, of course. I always write with ^ for superscript: Id


Edited by Henk69 (05/09/16 01:02 AM)

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#115756 - 05/07/16 10:35 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 949
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: KazJaps


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The pullet-line Wyandotte modifier(s) lightens the eb s+ chick down a lot too, including the modified central dorsal stripe.
Eg, the following is a UK partridge wyandotte bantam chick (Mau's photo), but very similar is found here in Australia:



Carefoot thought that a modifier he had in pullet-line partridge wyandotte bantams was Di or similar to Di.


Could it be, that the pencilled Wyandottes in UK are Wheaten based (against the rules)?
_________________________

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#115757 - 05/07/16 03:22 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
Yes, my top goal is to extract the E locus allele from Silver Pencilled/Partridge Wyandottes, remove all modifiers. I want to see if I can get similar eb phenotype as Smyth, Campo, etc. Develop my own eb tester line (& then add S, etc again).

Plus hopefully work out the modifier(s) in this Wyandotte pullet line.

Two problems:
1: This silver pencilled pullet-line seems to be heterozygous for Pg (going by juvenile ckl -no pseudo transverse barring). The hens aren't quality pattern. Although I think they are probably homozygous for the main pullet-line modifier (modifies chick down, gives tip phaeomelanin spotting/lace in adult males & possibly adds phaeomelanin lace in hens).

2: I had to use a pullet-line BBRed e+/e+ MGB as wild-type, & these have an adult modifier - gold flitter. And this will confuse matters with identifying the Wyandotte spots/flitter modifier. But a bonus of this line is the e+ chick down, typical RJF wild-type, no autosexing traits.

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I decided to keep only 1 SP Wyandotte hen, as the rooster & other hen segregated pg+/pg+ juvenile phenotype. She might be Pg/pg+ too, so I'll have to keep track of each F1 chick, see if I can identify Pg/pg+ to pg+/pg+ in juvenile plumage. Hopefully she has at least one Pg allele smile

Actually she is a bit weird, has some residual intermediate transverse barring/pencilling. It's highly probable they have a flitter-like mutation, confusing matters. Eg, some cushion feathers have the silver edge lace but stippling in the centre. This is the same pattern as my e+ pg+ flitter MGB.

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#115765 - 05/09/16 06:25 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 949
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Redcap
Originally Posted By: KazJaps


-------------------
The pullet-line Wyandotte modifier(s) lightens the eb s+ chick down a lot too, including the modified central dorsal stripe.
Eg, the following is a UK partridge wyandotte bantam chick (Mau's photo), but very similar is found here in Australia:



Carefoot thought that a modifier he had in pullet-line partridge wyandotte bantams was Di or similar to Di.


Could it be, that the pencilled Wyandottes in UK are Wheaten based (against the rules)?



And could this be the ey phenotype?
Quote:
The recessive wheaten down resembles that of the dominant allele -- (e^Wh), however, head spots and faint back striping are more common in the e^Y / e^Y chick

http://www.poultryscience.org/docs/pba/1952-2003/1976/1976%20Smyth.pdf#page=9&zoom=auto,-99,698

Quote:
Although our line is e^b / e^b, it is possible to produce the phenotype on e + or e^Wh [or e^Y?], although it takes more modifiers to eliminate the salmon coloration in the female breast plumage.
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