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#115910 - 07/17/16 10:44 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
An update on these F1 chickens.....

All the chicks turned out quite uniform as juveniles (ie possible the silver pencilled hen was homozygous for Pg/Pg & the pullet-line modifier).

At 9 weeks, 6 days old, S/s+ cockerel (purple band)



Notice the poor transverse barring on the wing flight tips. I think this might indicate Pg/pg+ (this slightly more pronounced than e+/e+ wild-type juveniles). For comparison to purebred Australian Partridge Wyandotte (pullet-line) juveniles at a similar age, see the following BYP post , eg this partridge Wyandotte cockerel:


My F1 boys started with patchy/peppered caramel breasts, now moulting out mostly black-breasted:


The purebred Wyandotte cockerels have more flitter/laced breasts, but my F1 cockerels do have poor caramel coloured laced edges on their back.


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:17 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115911 - 07/17/16 11:31 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
The four F1 pullets were quite uniform in phenotype too. I thought I had taken some photos when they were younger but can't find any, & at the moment they are quickly changing from the younger poor transverse barring top /wings & orangey breast. So I stuffed up - don't have photos of this pullet phenotype. But on that BYP thread, 14 to 18 day old partridge chicks, my F1 pullets had very similar wing patterns at that age (not much different to my purebred e+/e+ MGB chicks), & then developed a bit more pronounced transverse barring, eg like is showing in the following F1 pullet now 10 weeks old (slightly behind moulting than her sisters):

F1 pullet (Green 5 band):


* notice the pattern is changing from poor transverse barring, becoming more concentric.

Here's her breast, also changing from buff-orange to a darker orange thick edge & with some stippling/pattern centres:



Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:18 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115912 - 07/17/16 11:50 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Here's another F1 pullet, 10 weeks old, bit further developed in concentric pattern:

F1 pullet (pink band):




The breast a darker salmon, & once again developing a pattern.

------------------------------------
F1 pullet (white band) 10 week old:



* the best pullet for concentric pencilling

*Showing the salmon coloured breast in comparison to gold neck hackles.

*Notice the patterning is not on the belly (as yet). All the patterning (eumelanin) on the breast is a recent development. They all started orangy-buff breasted.

So that is a big surprise seeing quite a lot of patterning developing on an e+/eb salmon breast. Might be transient.


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:21 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115913 - 07/18/16 12:33 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Some current photos of their Silver Pencilled Wyandotte bantam mother. She is at the end of her first adult moult (which unfortunately coincided with her going broody - apparently this can effect patterning (Carefoot)).




*Notice bottom of neck hackles the in-between transverse barring/concentric pattern


* The concentric patterning is bad, but this is actually an improvement on the cushion & tail, more stippling was here before the moult.


* The breast still with too much phaeomelanin -silver & sort of zig-zag concentric pencilling with thick silver edge.

I think there is highly likely an additional flitter-like mutation in this pullet line (very obvious in the roosters - silver lace/spots on the breast). I can imagine this young hen would be completely terrible without that silver flitter edge modifier - this obvious on the transverse-barred feathers & on the breast, plus on the other hen where she had stippling centres but silver edge.

Don't know what else she is missing to give exhibition phenotype (obviously has many flaws). It might have been a fluke to get all 11 F1 Pg/pg+ like pullets & cockerels, but I think she is Pg/Pg, just lacking exhibition modifiers.


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:23 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#116055 - 09/23/16 10:18 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
While I have Carefoot's quote handy....
-------------------
Carefoot noted the following in Creative Poultry Breeding (p154) about partridge Wyandotte hen pencilling:

Quote:
Often it takes an adult moult for a pencilled female to be her best. Unfortunately feathers grown during a period of broodiness or laying can revert to barring, mixed type, or even to a very heavy pencilling; suggesting that the expression of pencilling is dependent on appropriate hormone level.

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#116153 - 10/31/16 11:43 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Hebe Online   content
Feather

Registered: 07/24/16
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
When Carefoot wrote Creative Poultry Breeding it was the case that hens invariably beat pullets for pattern but since then a new strain has emerged in the UK and pullets now usually have as good pattern as hens. The paler chickdown as on the chick above is a characteristic of the best marked strains. No one seems to know what the modifier is.

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#116155 - 10/31/16 10:04 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Thanks Hebe. That's important to know that different lines mature (exhibition phenotype) at different rates wink
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An update, -two F1 cockerels I kept:


* Notice the clean black breast (lost the lace/spots of the SP pullet line).

The following pullet (pink band) photo taken a while ago:

* Notice that the wing/top patterning has faded out a lot.
----------------------------------
next generation...

F1 S/s+ males (2) x F1 s+/- females (2 pullets kept: green band 5 & white band):

Only 3 chicks hatched, 1 silver, 2 gold.
The 2 gold chicks:


Side view of same chicks:


* Note, with a high maize (& egg yolk enhancer additives in layer premix) diet, I get some chicks with the normal white down changing to creamy/yellow tones.

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As these F2 chicks are different again to the F1 in pattern (narrower head stripe), I really don't know if they are e+/eb or? All 3 chicks have very reduced eye stripes, so I'm thinking maybe they are 3 males?

What is obvious is that there are significant chick down modifiers coming from the silver pencilled dotte line (otherwise I would only get the 3 pattern phenotypes segregating: e+/e+ or e+/eb or eb/eb).


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:29 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#116156 - 10/31/16 10:10 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Oh, notice too that the MGB BBRed e+/e+ non-striped neck hackles in males is incompletely dominant to the striped neck hackles in the eb/eb silver pencilled dotte line. Ie, the F1 roosters have mostly non-striped neck hackles (except faint residual stripes on tips).

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#116160 - 11/01/16 07:14 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 952
Loc: Germany
I think, that this is regulated by special hormonal scripts. So it should be much more complex, that it can't be explained only by one modifier.
_________________________

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#116161 - 11/03/16 04:33 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Redcap]
Hebe Online   content
Feather

Registered: 07/24/16
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
Interestingly here we have had three identifiable lines of pullet breeder partridge/silver pencilled - almost everyone crosses them and two CB partridge lines.

1. broken breast pattern males and females that have good pattern even as pullets
2, broken breast pattern males and females that are better as hens than pullets. This is the traditional exhibition line that disappeared around the 1980's
3. solid breasted males that throw perfectly good well pencilled females - tho can't compare hens to pullets. This is an old fashioned line probably almost extinct

Male partridge lines
traditionally had stippled females but a line with coarsely pencilled females appeared and did well. Chicks were chipmunk-ish striped.

Male CB partridge in UK has to have recessive white but also needs some other modifier to get the necessary yellowness with the recessive white otherwise hackles remain orange.

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