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#116162 - 11/03/16 06:08 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
Hebe Offline
Feather

Registered: 07/24/16
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
The CB males which don't carry recessive white are purported to be eb. Well they are clearly not and there is something else significant going on.
Quote from a breeder in the UK "they are coloured like eb chicks" "as expected then 3 were yellow with the stripes" which is not what eb is meant to be. Is eb misidentified or are Wyandottes not eb?

In my experience and most pics on the web of eb looking chicks are laced:
Most partridge chicks are either chipmunk-ish or yellow with chipmunk stripes. The trouble is everyone believes the light yellow chicks to be eb.

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#116165 - 11/06/16 04:50 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
I know R. Okimoto DNA tested some USA Partridge Wyandottes & these had the same eb sequence as Smyth's eb tester line. Smyth's eb allele originated from a synthetic recessive white line (had White Plymouth Rock, White Wyandotte, etc origins, also segregated eWh, Ml, Co, etc).

Smyth's eb tester line chick down:

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Here is an image in Brumbaugh's 1963 dissertation paper on chick downs (also in Brumbaugh & Hollander's 1965 "A Further Study of the E Pattern Locus in the Fowl" paper):

Figure 29. enlarged image link

Brumbaugh, John Albert, "A study of the genetic control of black-red pigment patterns in the fowl" (1963). Retrospective Theses and Dissertations. Paper 2374.
http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/rtd/2374/

Brumbaugh & Hollander were naming the eb allele as ep (after Partridge Rocks, Wyandottes, etc). Their source of ep (eb) was from a het. Dark Brown Leghorn hen, Partridge Rock hen & Pencilled Wyandotte bantam hen. So they may have had some modifiers in their eb tester birds.

But Morejohn had previously named the eb allele after the chick down colour of "brown". Morejohn found eb (& es) chicks in day-old USA Brown Leghorn commercial hatchery stock (NOT from 'Dark Brown Leghorn" stock per say as Brumbaugh & Hollander erroneously suggest in their paper).

Morejohn's description of eb:

Quote:
Brown, (eb)
The phenotype of the chick (fig. 1, B) may be described as being primarily all brown. The back was darker than the underside. Occasional small light brown spots seemed to delimit what may be taken to be the outer edge of the dorsal head stripe as found in wild type chicks. Dorm-lateral light brown striping was greatly suppressed and in most cases was absent. The adult hen differed from the wild type hen in being dark brown stippled throughout and not having a salmon-colored breast (fig. 2).
Shanks and toes very frequently showed dark bluish-brown pigment in individual scales, and brown pigment was distributed along the distal edges of most scales.


Figure 1: B = eb chick

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Also there are photos of eb Villafranquina in the Spanish article:
http://www.inia.es/gcontrec/pub/CATALOGO_INIA_Gallinas_1290596384804.pdf


* These have the eb allele phenotype, but the stock were found to be segregating another eb allele sequence as well (ie there were 2 eb phenotype alleles)


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:32 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#116166 - 11/06/16 05:06 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
The following in Malone & Smyth's 1979 paper, description of eb S (without modifiers):

The Expression of S and s+ on Brown (eb).
Quote:
In order to compare S/s+ and s+/-w chicks on an eb background, S/s+ eb/eb co+/co+ males (originating from BRA crosses) were mated with BR (s+/-w eb/eb co+/co+) females.

Identification of silver on the brown down of the 59 progeny was difficult, particularly in those chicks where the parallel back stripes were expressed faintly or absent. Some chicks expressed silver and gold in the down plumages around the comb, but this phenotype was too inconsistent for accurate differentiation.

Adult S/s+ eb/eb males resembled the previously described S/s+ e+/eb males. In the adult female, silver replaced the red-yellow hackle pigment and changed the dark brown, stippled body plumage to a silvery-gray.

BR = Brown line (synthetic eb tester line)
BRA = Brahma line (synthetic cross of Buff Brahma males to columbian females: i+ S/s+ eWh/eb Co)

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So that description of eb S chick down is nothing like in pullet-line Silver Pencilled Wyandotte chicks here.

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#116167 - 11/06/16 06:43 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Ok, here is a very interesting cockerel-line Silver Pencilled Wyandotte bantams (in Australia).



All the roosters have the silver wing bay (never crow-wing).


The right chick colour/pattern is typical in this cockerel-line (although I think he might be getting both light & dark chicks).

So that chick down is getting closer to Malone & Smyth's description of eb S.

-----------------------------------------
Interesting that the Murray McMurry hatchery Silver Penciled Rock & Dark Brahma chicks look similar to silver-laced Wyandotte chicks.

The following Dick Horstman Silver Penciled Rock line has similar autosexing chicks to here in OZ & UK (lighter = males, darker = females):
Chicks & juveniles:
http://showbirdbid.proboards.com/thread/5829/silver-penciled-plymouth-rocks

And these at Les Farms, similar light & dark SP Rock chicks:
http://lesfarms.weebly.com/silver-pencilled-plymouth-rock.html

* The roosters appear clean black breasted, hens concentric pencilling (although hens not top exhibition quality).


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:34 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#116179 - 11/11/16 05:08 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Hebe Offline
Feather

Registered: 07/24/16
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
Having just seen a pullet from a new bought in line reminded me of something. Working from the other end we always think of eb as black tailed which noticeably most laced are, older partridge PB lines always had black ends to the tails, the chicks tended to be the darker striped colour. Modern UK partridge PB Wyandottes noticeably have pattern to the very end of their tails on females. This has not been deliberately selected, it associated with pale yellow chicks as in earlier post. A modifier or different E allele? Results seem to point to the latter.
What worries me about Brumbaugh's work is we get lots of pics of dead chicks but little by way of adults. lol!

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#116180 - 11/11/16 05:17 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
Hebe Offline
Feather

Registered: 07/24/16
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
When working with CB partridge one should be very close to seeing the neat eb allele. The fact that there are so many variations in chickdown and when you look adults too - plus increasingly large variation when Pg is introduced it being better able to exhibit many subtle differences in adult plumage. Looking at all the partridges above with down there must be many eb's but is something like wheaten involved? Carefoot disputed the accepted version of ey but that doesn't mean there isn't more than one wheaten.
















Edited by Hebe (11/11/16 01:00 PM)

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#116192 - 11/20/16 04:56 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Hebe, the UK cockerel line Partridge Wyandotte bantams for sale on "The partridge and pencilled wyandottes club" Facebook group, the hens although a bit coarse are still obviously Pg/Pg, the rooster quite clean black breasted. Don't know what these look like as day olds? Notice the tinge of blackish epidermal leg pigment too.


Just noticed some Australian Partridge Wyandotte chicks on Facebook that are similar brown tone (slighter lighter) than the eb Villafranquina chicks. Only thin lateral back stripes, no patterning on the head. Don't know what the parents look like.

There is also eb based Silkies where the day-olds have a lot of striped pattern. The trouble with silkies is it's hard to know what other modifiers are in the mix.


Edited by KazJaps (11/20/16 05:00 PM)
Edit Reason: added url -Aust. partridge dotte chicks

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#116211 - 11/30/16 12:37 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Hebe Offline
Feather

Registered: 07/24/16
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
That "cockerel line" male doesn't look the part at any level. It's not representative. His hens are just not very good pullet-breeder type.Even the birds I had were strongly marked but far less than that. No one aiming for exhibition males would bother breeding from an orange hackled CB male with legs that colour! I don't think it is a proper line.
My birds were unusually strongly patterned for UK at that time. http://www.sedgwickcommon.co.uk/partridge-wyandottes/#image-877



Edited by Hebe (11/30/16 12:43 PM)

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#116212 - 11/30/16 12:41 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
Hebe Offline
Feather

Registered: 07/24/16
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
The UK Partridge Wyandotte club have http://www.partridgewyandotteclub.co.uk/Genetics.html some interesting pics:

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#116213 - 11/30/16 02:15 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3757
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Hebe
The UK Partridge Wyandotte club have http://www.partridgewyandotteclub.co.uk/Genetics.html some interesting pics:


Those pictures confirm the old(from 1800s) saying, that the cocks from pullet lines will have leakages, and the hens from cockerel lines are without Pg.

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