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#115746 - 05/07/16 12:02 AM MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte
KazJaps Offline
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Just hatched some chickens from my wild-type MGB X pullet-line silver pencilled Wyandotte project. Some surprises.

The following the parent line phenotypes, chick down & adult...

Father's line, Modern Game bantam BBRed: e+/e+ (pullet-line, develop gold flitter)



Mother's line, pullet-line Silver Pencilled Wyandotte bantams (poor pencilling in hens Pg/pg+?, males with silver lace/spots on breast & upper thighs)



------------------------------
Here's what the pure line MGB e+/e+ chicks look like:


Here's what the silver pencilled Wyandotte chicks look like:



--------------------------------------------


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:06 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115747 - 05/07/16 12:05 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Now the F1 chicks. I made it a s+/s+ gold male X S/- female sex-linked cross, so I know what chicks are male or female.

S/s+ male on the left, s+/- female on the right:






------------------------------------
F1 female on the left, male on the right:



Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:09 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115748 - 05/07/16 12:15 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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The following chicks pure line silver pencilled dottes (eb/eb? S with modifiers)

There were two main phenotypes & I was thinking that the lighter chicks were males, darker & more patterned chicks females:



*As a guess (not proven), I was thinking the chick down was autosexing. But I didn't raise enough chicks to adulthood (only one)

The following light chick turned out a male:


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:10 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115749 - 05/07/16 12:30 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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So, not only are the F1 chicks a sex-linked cross (silver-male or gold-female), but they have some autosexing traits...

F1
- Left male, thin reduced eye-stripe, lighter eye-stripe tan colour,
- right female, thick normal e+ eye-stripe:


F1
- Left male, tan colour dorsal stripe,
- right female, normal chestnut colour dorsal stripe:


--------------------
Plus there are some minor pattern differences in both genders with the purebred e+/e+ line chicks to the F1 e+/eb? chicks. Eg, the arrowhead stripe is not clean edged (jagged) & a bit smaller. And maybe the s+ chicks are slighter lighter gold.

----------------------
Edit:
Note, I don't know from this single cross whether the F1 male chick's paler tan dorsal stripe trait is due to a sex-linked dominant mutation or whether it's an autosomal incompletely dominant sex-influenced mutation, or......?

I know there is a significant chick down modifier in these pullet line SP & partridge Wyandottes as both the s+ partridge & S SP chicks look nothing like unmodified eb (the rest wild-type).


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:12 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115750 - 05/07/16 03:21 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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Maybe an additional effect by Id?

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#115753 - 05/07/16 07:25 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
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Do you mean Id inhibitor of dermal pigment, not ID dun?

It is a id+/id+ X Id/- cross.

Although I have done similar id+/id+ X Id/- but the mother was B barred too (silver Duckwing male x crele hens). Both S/s+ Id-B/id+-b+ male & S/- id+-b+/- female chicks had the chestnut dorsal stripe.

I'll try to track Id locus alleles, chick down phenotype & genders when I do F2's (taking photos, using leg bands). Plus see if these F1 id+/- pullets have diluted leg colour from any possible modifier.

-------------------
The pullet-line Wyandotte modifier(s) lightens the eb s+ chick down a lot too, including the modified central dorsal stripe.
Eg, the following is a UK partridge wyandotte bantam chick (Mau's photo), but very similar is found here in Australia:



Carefoot thought that a modifier he had in pullet-line partridge wyandotte bantams was Di or similar to Di.

Here's Brumbaugh & Hollander's e+/e+ Di/Di chick down (chick on the right)

Reference:
Brumbaugh, John Albert, "A study of the genetic control of black-red pigment patterns in the fowl" (1963).
Retrospective Theses and Dissertations. Paper 2374.
http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/rtd/2374
(link to Figures - colour plates download page)

I don't think I have Di (as above), as het. Di/di+ were expressed in both male & female chick downs, & was the opposite in adults, Di/di+ only expressed in adult females.


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:14 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115754 - 05/07/16 09:59 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
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Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Do you mean Id inhibitor of dermal pigment, not ID dun?


Yes, of course. I always write with ^ for superscript: Id


Edited by Henk69 (05/09/16 01:02 AM)

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#115756 - 05/07/16 10:35 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
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Originally Posted By: KazJaps


-------------------
The pullet-line Wyandotte modifier(s) lightens the eb s+ chick down a lot too, including the modified central dorsal stripe.
Eg, the following is a UK partridge wyandotte bantam chick (Mau's photo), but very similar is found here in Australia:



Carefoot thought that a modifier he had in pullet-line partridge wyandotte bantams was Di or similar to Di.


Could it be, that the pencilled Wyandottes in UK are Wheaten based (against the rules)?
_________________________

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#115757 - 05/07/16 03:22 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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Yes, my top goal is to extract the E locus allele from Silver Pencilled/Partridge Wyandottes, remove all modifiers. I want to see if I can get similar eb phenotype as Smyth, Campo, etc. Develop my own eb tester line (& then add S, etc again).

Plus hopefully work out the modifier(s) in this Wyandotte pullet line.

Two problems:
1: This silver pencilled pullet-line seems to be heterozygous for Pg (going by juvenile ckl -no pseudo transverse barring). The hens aren't quality pattern. Although I think they are probably homozygous for the main pullet-line modifier (modifies chick down, gives tip phaeomelanin spotting/lace in adult males & possibly adds phaeomelanin lace in hens).

2: I had to use a pullet-line BBRed e+/e+ MGB as wild-type, & these have an adult modifier - gold flitter. And this will confuse matters with identifying the Wyandotte spots/flitter modifier. But a bonus of this line is the e+ chick down, typical RJF wild-type, no autosexing traits.

-------------------
I decided to keep only 1 SP Wyandotte hen, as the rooster & other hen segregated pg+/pg+ juvenile phenotype. She might be Pg/pg+ too, so I'll have to keep track of each F1 chick, see if I can identify Pg/pg+ to pg+/pg+ in juvenile plumage. Hopefully she has at least one Pg allele smile

Actually she is a bit weird, has some residual intermediate transverse barring/pencilling. It's highly probable they have a flitter-like mutation, confusing matters. Eg, some cushion feathers have the silver edge lace but stippling in the centre. This is the same pattern as my e+ pg+ flitter MGB.

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#115765 - 05/09/16 06:25 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Redcap
Originally Posted By: KazJaps


-------------------
The pullet-line Wyandotte modifier(s) lightens the eb s+ chick down a lot too, including the modified central dorsal stripe.
Eg, the following is a UK partridge wyandotte bantam chick (Mau's photo), but very similar is found here in Australia:



Carefoot thought that a modifier he had in pullet-line partridge wyandotte bantams was Di or similar to Di.


Could it be, that the pencilled Wyandottes in UK are Wheaten based (against the rules)?



And could this be the ey phenotype?
Quote:
The recessive wheaten down resembles that of the dominant allele -- (e^Wh), however, head spots and faint back striping are more common in the e^Y / e^Y chick

http://www.poultryscience.org/docs/pba/1952-2003/1976/1976%20Smyth.pdf#page=9&zoom=auto,-99,698

Quote:
Although our line is e^b / e^b, it is possible to produce the phenotype on e + or e^Wh [or e^Y?], although it takes more modifiers to eliminate the salmon coloration in the female breast plumage.
_________________________

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#115910 - 07/17/16 10:44 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
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An update on these F1 chickens.....

All the chicks turned out quite uniform as juveniles (ie possible the silver pencilled hen was homozygous for Pg/Pg & the pullet-line modifier).

At 9 weeks, 6 days old, S/s+ cockerel (purple band)



Notice the poor transverse barring on the wing flight tips. I think this might indicate Pg/pg+ (this slightly more pronounced than e+/e+ wild-type juveniles). For comparison to purebred Australian Partridge Wyandotte (pullet-line) juveniles at a similar age, see the following BYP post , eg this partridge Wyandotte cockerel:


My F1 boys started with patchy/peppered caramel breasts, now moulting out mostly black-breasted:


The purebred Wyandotte cockerels have more flitter/laced breasts, but my F1 cockerels do have poor caramel coloured laced edges on their back.


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:17 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115911 - 07/17/16 11:31 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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The four F1 pullets were quite uniform in phenotype too. I thought I had taken some photos when they were younger but can't find any, & at the moment they are quickly changing from the younger poor transverse barring top /wings & orangey breast. So I stuffed up - don't have photos of this pullet phenotype. But on that BYP thread, 14 to 18 day old partridge chicks, my F1 pullets had very similar wing patterns at that age (not much different to my purebred e+/e+ MGB chicks), & then developed a bit more pronounced transverse barring, eg like is showing in the following F1 pullet now 10 weeks old (slightly behind moulting than her sisters):

F1 pullet (Green 5 band):


* notice the pattern is changing from poor transverse barring, becoming more concentric.

Here's her breast, also changing from buff-orange to a darker orange thick edge & with some stippling/pattern centres:



Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:18 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115912 - 07/17/16 11:50 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Here's another F1 pullet, 10 weeks old, bit further developed in concentric pattern:

F1 pullet (pink band):




The breast a darker salmon, & once again developing a pattern.

------------------------------------
F1 pullet (white band) 10 week old:



* the best pullet for concentric pencilling

*Showing the salmon coloured breast in comparison to gold neck hackles.

*Notice the patterning is not on the belly (as yet). All the patterning (eumelanin) on the breast is a recent development. They all started orangy-buff breasted.

So that is a big surprise seeing quite a lot of patterning developing on an e+/eb salmon breast. Might be transient.


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:21 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#115913 - 07/18/16 12:33 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Some current photos of their Silver Pencilled Wyandotte bantam mother. She is at the end of her first adult moult (which unfortunately coincided with her going broody - apparently this can effect patterning (Carefoot)).




*Notice bottom of neck hackles the in-between transverse barring/concentric pattern


* The concentric patterning is bad, but this is actually an improvement on the cushion & tail, more stippling was here before the moult.


* The breast still with too much phaeomelanin -silver & sort of zig-zag concentric pencilling with thick silver edge.

I think there is highly likely an additional flitter-like mutation in this pullet line (very obvious in the roosters - silver lace/spots on the breast). I can imagine this young hen would be completely terrible without that silver flitter edge modifier - this obvious on the transverse-barred feathers & on the breast, plus on the other hen where she had stippling centres but silver edge.

Don't know what else she is missing to give exhibition phenotype (obviously has many flaws). It might have been a fluke to get all 11 F1 Pg/pg+ like pullets & cockerels, but I think she is Pg/Pg, just lacking exhibition modifiers.


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:23 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#116055 - 09/23/16 10:18 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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While I have Carefoot's quote handy....
-------------------
Carefoot noted the following in Creative Poultry Breeding (p154) about partridge Wyandotte hen pencilling:

Quote:
Often it takes an adult moult for a pencilled female to be her best. Unfortunately feathers grown during a period of broodiness or laying can revert to barring, mixed type, or even to a very heavy pencilling; suggesting that the expression of pencilling is dependent on appropriate hormone level.

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#116153 - 10/31/16 11:43 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Hebe Online   content
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When Carefoot wrote Creative Poultry Breeding it was the case that hens invariably beat pullets for pattern but since then a new strain has emerged in the UK and pullets now usually have as good pattern as hens. The paler chickdown as on the chick above is a characteristic of the best marked strains. No one seems to know what the modifier is.

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#116155 - 10/31/16 10:04 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
KazJaps Offline
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Thanks Hebe. That's important to know that different lines mature (exhibition phenotype) at different rates wink
---------------------
An update, -two F1 cockerels I kept:


* Notice the clean black breast (lost the lace/spots of the SP pullet line).

The following pullet (pink band) photo taken a while ago:

* Notice that the wing/top patterning has faded out a lot.
----------------------------------
next generation...

F1 S/s+ males (2) x F1 s+/- females (2 pullets kept: green band 5 & white band):

Only 3 chicks hatched, 1 silver, 2 gold.
The 2 gold chicks:


Side view of same chicks:


* Note, with a high maize (& egg yolk enhancer additives in layer premix) diet, I get some chicks with the normal white down changing to creamy/yellow tones.

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As these F2 chicks are different again to the F1 in pattern (narrower head stripe), I really don't know if they are e+/eb or? All 3 chicks have very reduced eye stripes, so I'm thinking maybe they are 3 males?

What is obvious is that there are significant chick down modifiers coming from the silver pencilled dotte line (otherwise I would only get the 3 pattern phenotypes segregating: e+/e+ or e+/eb or eb/eb).


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:29 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#116156 - 10/31/16 10:10 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Oh, notice too that the MGB BBRed e+/e+ non-striped neck hackles in males is incompletely dominant to the striped neck hackles in the eb/eb silver pencilled dotte line. Ie, the F1 roosters have mostly non-striped neck hackles (except faint residual stripes on tips).

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#116160 - 11/01/16 07:14 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Online   content
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I think, that this is regulated by special hormonal scripts. So it should be much more complex, that it can't be explained only by one modifier.
_________________________

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#116161 - 11/03/16 04:33 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Redcap]
Hebe Online   content
Feather

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Interestingly here we have had three identifiable lines of pullet breeder partridge/silver pencilled - almost everyone crosses them and two CB partridge lines.

1. broken breast pattern males and females that have good pattern even as pullets
2, broken breast pattern males and females that are better as hens than pullets. This is the traditional exhibition line that disappeared around the 1980's
3. solid breasted males that throw perfectly good well pencilled females - tho can't compare hens to pullets. This is an old fashioned line probably almost extinct

Male partridge lines
traditionally had stippled females but a line with coarsely pencilled females appeared and did well. Chicks were chipmunk-ish striped.

Male CB partridge in UK has to have recessive white but also needs some other modifier to get the necessary yellowness with the recessive white otherwise hackles remain orange.

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#116162 - 11/03/16 06:08 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
Hebe Online   content
Feather

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The CB males which don't carry recessive white are purported to be eb. Well they are clearly not and there is something else significant going on.
Quote from a breeder in the UK "they are coloured like eb chicks" "as expected then 3 were yellow with the stripes" which is not what eb is meant to be. Is eb misidentified or are Wyandottes not eb?

In my experience and most pics on the web of eb looking chicks are laced:
Most partridge chicks are either chipmunk-ish or yellow with chipmunk stripes. The trouble is everyone believes the light yellow chicks to be eb.

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#116165 - 11/06/16 04:50 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
KazJaps Offline
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I know R. Okimoto DNA tested some USA Partridge Wyandottes & these had the same eb sequence as Smyth's eb tester line. Smyth's eb allele originated from a synthetic recessive white line (had White Plymouth Rock, White Wyandotte, etc origins, also segregated eWh, Ml, Co, etc).

Smyth's eb tester line chick down:

----------------
Here is an image in Brumbaugh's 1963 dissertation paper on chick downs (also in Brumbaugh & Hollander's 1965 "A Further Study of the E Pattern Locus in the Fowl" paper):

Figure 29. enlarged image link

Brumbaugh, John Albert, "A study of the genetic control of black-red pigment patterns in the fowl" (1963). Retrospective Theses and Dissertations. Paper 2374.
http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/rtd/2374/

Brumbaugh & Hollander were naming the eb allele as ep (after Partridge Rocks, Wyandottes, etc). Their source of ep (eb) was from a het. Dark Brown Leghorn hen, Partridge Rock hen & Pencilled Wyandotte bantam hen. So they may have had some modifiers in their eb tester birds.

But Morejohn had previously named the eb allele after the chick down colour of "brown". Morejohn found eb (& es) chicks in day-old USA Brown Leghorn commercial hatchery stock (NOT from 'Dark Brown Leghorn" stock per say as Brumbaugh & Hollander erroneously suggest in their paper).

Morejohn's description of eb:

Quote:
Brown, (eb)
The phenotype of the chick (fig. 1, B) may be described as being primarily all brown. The back was darker than the underside. Occasional small light brown spots seemed to delimit what may be taken to be the outer edge of the dorsal head stripe as found in wild type chicks. Dorm-lateral light brown striping was greatly suppressed and in most cases was absent. The adult hen differed from the wild type hen in being dark brown stippled throughout and not having a salmon-colored breast (fig. 2).
Shanks and toes very frequently showed dark bluish-brown pigment in individual scales, and brown pigment was distributed along the distal edges of most scales.


Figure 1: B = eb chick

----------------------------
Also there are photos of eb Villafranquina in the Spanish article:
http://www.inia.es/gcontrec/pub/CATALOGO_INIA_Gallinas_1290596384804.pdf


* These have the eb allele phenotype, but the stock were found to be segregating another eb allele sequence as well (ie there were 2 eb phenotype alleles)


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:32 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#116166 - 11/06/16 05:06 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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The following in Malone & Smyth's 1979 paper, description of eb S (without modifiers):

The Expression of S and s+ on Brown (eb).
Quote:
In order to compare S/s+ and s+/-w chicks on an eb background, S/s+ eb/eb co+/co+ males (originating from BRA crosses) were mated with BR (s+/-w eb/eb co+/co+) females.

Identification of silver on the brown down of the 59 progeny was difficult, particularly in those chicks where the parallel back stripes were expressed faintly or absent. Some chicks expressed silver and gold in the down plumages around the comb, but this phenotype was too inconsistent for accurate differentiation.

Adult S/s+ eb/eb males resembled the previously described S/s+ e+/eb males. In the adult female, silver replaced the red-yellow hackle pigment and changed the dark brown, stippled body plumage to a silvery-gray.

BR = Brown line (synthetic eb tester line)
BRA = Brahma line (synthetic cross of Buff Brahma males to columbian females: i+ S/s+ eWh/eb Co)

-----------------------
So that description of eb S chick down is nothing like in pullet-line Silver Pencilled Wyandotte chicks here.

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#116167 - 11/06/16 06:43 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Ok, here is a very interesting cockerel-line Silver Pencilled Wyandotte bantams (in Australia).



All the roosters have the silver wing bay (never crow-wing).


The right chick colour/pattern is typical in this cockerel-line (although I think he might be getting both light & dark chicks).

So that chick down is getting closer to Malone & Smyth's description of eb S.

-----------------------------------------
Interesting that the Murray McMurry hatchery Silver Penciled Rock & Dark Brahma chicks look similar to silver-laced Wyandotte chicks.

The following Dick Horstman Silver Penciled Rock line has similar autosexing chicks to here in OZ & UK (lighter = males, darker = females):
Chicks & juveniles:
http://showbirdbid.proboards.com/thread/5829/silver-penciled-plymouth-rocks

And these at Les Farms, similar light & dark SP Rock chicks:
http://lesfarms.weebly.com/silver-pencilled-plymouth-rock.html

* The roosters appear clean black breasted, hens concentric pencilling (although hens not top exhibition quality).


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:34 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#116179 - 11/11/16 05:08 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Hebe Online   content
Feather

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Loc: UK
Having just seen a pullet from a new bought in line reminded me of something. Working from the other end we always think of eb as black tailed which noticeably most laced are, older partridge PB lines always had black ends to the tails, the chicks tended to be the darker striped colour. Modern UK partridge PB Wyandottes noticeably have pattern to the very end of their tails on females. This has not been deliberately selected, it associated with pale yellow chicks as in earlier post. A modifier or different E allele? Results seem to point to the latter.
What worries me about Brumbaugh's work is we get lots of pics of dead chicks but little by way of adults. lol!

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#116180 - 11/11/16 05:17 AM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
Hebe Online   content
Feather

Registered: 07/24/16
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
When working with CB partridge one should be very close to seeing the neat eb allele. The fact that there are so many variations in chickdown and when you look adults too - plus increasingly large variation when Pg is introduced it being better able to exhibit many subtle differences in adult plumage. Looking at all the partridges above with down there must be many eb's but is something like wheaten involved? Carefoot disputed the accepted version of ey but that doesn't mean there isn't more than one wheaten.
















Edited by Hebe (11/11/16 01:00 PM)

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#116192 - 11/20/16 04:56 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
KazJaps Offline
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Hebe, the UK cockerel line Partridge Wyandotte bantams for sale on "The partridge and pencilled wyandottes club" Facebook group, the hens although a bit coarse are still obviously Pg/Pg, the rooster quite clean black breasted. Don't know what these look like as day olds? Notice the tinge of blackish epidermal leg pigment too.


Just noticed some Australian Partridge Wyandotte chicks on Facebook that are similar brown tone (slighter lighter) than the eb Villafranquina chicks. Only thin lateral back stripes, no patterning on the head. Don't know what the parents look like.

There is also eb based Silkies where the day-olds have a lot of striped pattern. The trouble with silkies is it's hard to know what other modifiers are in the mix.


Edited by KazJaps (11/20/16 05:00 PM)
Edit Reason: added url -Aust. partridge dotte chicks

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#116211 - 11/30/16 12:37 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
Hebe Online   content
Feather

Registered: 07/24/16
Posts: 36
Loc: UK
That "cockerel line" male doesn't look the part at any level. It's not representative. His hens are just not very good pullet-breeder type.Even the birds I had were strongly marked but far less than that. No one aiming for exhibition males would bother breeding from an orange hackled CB male with legs that colour! I don't think it is a proper line.
My birds were unusually strongly patterned for UK at that time. http://www.sedgwickcommon.co.uk/partridge-wyandottes/#image-877



Edited by Hebe (11/30/16 12:43 PM)

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#116212 - 11/30/16 12:41 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
Hebe Online   content
Feather

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Posts: 36
Loc: UK
The UK Partridge Wyandotte club have http://www.partridgewyandotteclub.co.uk/Genetics.html some interesting pics:

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#116213 - 11/30/16 02:15 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Hebe]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3757
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Hebe
The UK Partridge Wyandotte club have http://www.partridgewyandotteclub.co.uk/Genetics.html some interesting pics:


Those pictures confirm the old(from 1800s) saying, that the cocks from pullet lines will have leakages, and the hens from cockerel lines are without Pg.

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#116214 - 12/01/16 05:16 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Originally Posted By: Hebe
The UK Partridge Wyandotte club have http://www.partridgewyandotteclub.co.uk/Genetics.html some interesting pics:


Those pictures confirm the old(from 1800s) saying, that the cocks from pullet lines will have leakages, and the hens from cockerel lines are without Pg.


Not really. I would say the opposite, considering there are clean black breasted roosters where their hens have Pg concentric pencilling. Ie, the actual Pg gene does not put phaeomelanin markings on the eb roosters. That's why Smyth et al. had to use juvenile plumage (pseudo transverse barring) to identify Pg in cockerels, ie couldn't identify Pg in adult males.

In old poultry books I've read, it was the British Wyandotte breeders that started the double-mating (very good records on Silver-laced), & this caused some problems with the mixing of lines from different countries. The USA & UK Partridge Wyandottes have different Standards (USA red enhanced, UK gold diluted) & Australia now has the USA Partridge Standard for Partridge Plymouth Rocks but kept the UK Standard for Partridge Wyandottes.

I would say that the early Dark (silver pencilled) and Partridge Brahma /Cochins (Asian imports to the west) had mostly Pg, & early Wyandottes (developed in 2nd half/late 1800's) they probably selected for Pg concentric pencilling in hens as a priority. The wild-type Black-breasted Red & Silver Duckwing phenotypes in roosters nothing special (until they prioritized breed type & Exhibition Standards) smile

UK Partridge Wyandottes were exported to Germany in 1906, & not surprisingly, the description suggests these were already double-mated lines. Eg the males were described as having brown edging on the black breast, belly & thighs.

Going by the British Poultry Standard on Barnevelder history, it seems early Barnevelder imports were not set in phenotype colour/pattern, & it seems the English selected for different modifiers than the Dutch, ended up with Barnevelder roosters with patterned /red on the breast. But with the Barnevelders, the UK Standard males actually reflects this pullet-line phenotype, so not a separate cockerel-line black-breasted Barnevelder needed. Yet Dutch Barnevelder males have black breast, double-laced hens.

So I think it more a case of the accumulation & selection of exhibition modifiers over many decades, and whether breeders went for single-mating or double-mating breeding techniques.

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#116215 - 12/01/16 05:28 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
A terrible blurred photo, but an update on the following F2 chicks:


The paler gold chick is slightly lighter gold than its brother:

* pale gold chick is the one in the middle
As the parents were S/s+ and s+/-, this means the chick just in shot on the right is S/s+ (the gold head at the bottom of photo is their s+/- mother). So I'm confident that the paler gold chick is s+/s+.

So at this stage it "might" appear that the modifier that adds that chick down pale caramel back stripe might be a slight gold diluter to adult plumage.


Edited by KazJaps (10/26/17 06:36 PM)
Edit Reason: temporary update of image links

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#116881 - 10/26/17 07:06 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Update...
23 April 2017
F2 chicks - 2 hatched, both female
- e+ s+ (turned out a pullet like F1 mum, Pg/pg+)
- eb/eb S (turned out a pullet, appears pg+/pg+)

*unfortunately I didn't take a photo of these chicks, but I remember the eb S chick looked similar head pattern to the purebred silver Pencilled Wyandotte pullet chicks.

Here she is at 21 weeks old:




-so no signs of salmon on her breast, & plenty of stippling so probably pg+/pg+. Unfortunately the grandfather e+ MGB pullet-line has flitter-lace, so I don't know if her silver lacing is due to the MGB line alone or if a similar mutation was in the Wyandottes.

*note the tick below her wattles. This is a paralysis tick, luckily found it when taking these photos as she was raspy with breathing & starting to wobble on her legs (the toxin can be fatal, can kill dogs, calves let alone a small bantam pullet).

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#116882 - 10/26/17 07:58 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
28th July 2017 F2 setting
12 chicks hatched
- 2 x eb/eb (1 S, 1 s+, s+ chick died day2)
- 10 x e+/? (6 S, 4 s+)


Here are the 2 eb/eb chicks:

1 x s+ eb:

The eb s+ gold one died early.
--------------
1 x S eb:


*Appears to have at least one dose of the wyandotte dilute modifier (in S silvers it dilutes dorsal central stripe to caramel colour).

Thiz eb S turned out a S/s+ cockerel:
-12 weeks, 5 days old...

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#116883 - 10/26/17 09:16 PM Re: MGB e+/e+ X eb/eb silver pencilled dotte [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
e+ s+ gold chicks:

Of the other 10 chicks (all e+/?), there were 4 x s+ golds. Three of these golds had very typical e+ wild-type striped chick down, with no obvious modifiers. Two turned out BBRed cockerels, one pullet had probably Pg/pg+, was similar to the F1 hens.

The last chick (pullet) had the dotte-dilute modifier, was very diluted & had reduced e+ stripe on top of head, including modified thin eye-stripe:

* Notice the central back stripe (normally chestnut) is diluted to a slighter darker orangy caramel than the S silver dotte-dilute chicks.

Eg a comparison of the e+ s+ dotte-dilute chick (on left) with the eb S dotte-dilute chick (on right):

So this dotte-dilute mutation is modified by the S locus.

I suspect this e+ s+ dotte-dilute chick is homozygous for the dilute mutation, as the F1 e+/eb s+ gold chicks (all pullets, sex-linked cross) had typical e+ wild-type chick down (chestnut central dorsal stripe), but all the F1 e+/eb S silver chicks (all males) had the dotte-dilute caramel back stripes.

F1 chicks:

* Front S/s+ male, back s+ female. Both heterozygous for the dotte-dilute mutation.

Here is the e+ s+ dotte-dilute pullet now (12 wks, 5 days old), in comparison with her normal e+ s+ sister (with Pg/pg+):


So although this mutation significantly dilutes the chick down it only slightly lightens the gold neck hackles & salmon breast.

But, I also noticed she has a lot of rustiness/burnt orange on her wings.


This is significant as the grandfather e+ MGB BBRed pullet line hens don't have this trait, no rustiness on the wings (this a flaw in e+ MGB exhibition hens).

So I suspect this dotte-dilute mutation is a partial eumelanin restrictor, adds phaeomelanin to the hen's wings/top (might even be on the breast, shading the salmon pigment). I think it is also responsible for the phaeomelanin spots/lace on the Wyandotte rooster's black breast/underside too, but with the F1 roosters, all were black breasted, so needs to be homozygous for adult expression (although one F1 rooster I noticed recently was developing a little flitter on the breast, but this probably from the MGB flitter mutation, increases with adult moults).

Next I will be backcrossing this e+ s+ dotte-dilute pullet to pure e+ s+ MGB roo, & see if this mutation will express when heterozygous on male e+ s+ chicks like occurred with the F1 S/s+ heterozygous male chicks (keeping mind that with central dorsal stripes the S dotte-dilute chicks are lighter than s+ dotte-dilute chicks). This to test if the dotte-dilute mutation is autosomal incompletely dominant sex-influenced (if expressed more in male chicks than female, when heterozygous). And later I might cross her with a S/S e+ MGB silver duckwing rooster, & see again if only the male chicks end up with caramel stripes, or if all of them have caramel stripes (indicating that the F1 differences were due to S locus).

What has been a surprise is that the auto-sexing trait in the purebred eb Wyandotte chicks (males with very little eye-liner markings, females with eye-liner & more pattern) is not occurring with these e+ dotte-dilutes. Both e+ genders have significantly reduced eye-stripes. Maybe the difference is Pg, need both mutations? This dotte-dilute pullet appears to be pg+/pg+.

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