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#116228 - 12/16/16 03:23 PM Recessive Black?
Zenith311 Offline
New Egg

Registered: 03/27/16
Posts: 3
Loc: Pennsylvania
I was reading a few pieces on poultry genetics and found a few sources that mention "recessive Black". It was fairly old information, so I'm not sure of its accuracy, but I have never had anyone mention "recessive Black" before;is it uncommon? Is there any good information on it?

Thank you in advance.





Edited by Zenith311 (12/16/16 04:41 PM)

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#116229 - 12/18/16 11:37 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Zenith311]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3757
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Welcome to the coop. As far as I know there was no very recent official studies, so most probably you have seen all the information that was published. The "last word" on the subject has not been spoken yet. Personally I use the term recessive black as a "working term" (is there such an expression in English?), and not a name for any particular gene. From personal experience I can confirm, that the suggestion about "possible multiple genes involved" is true (at least 2 different). The recessive black genes I extracted from black minorcas did not eumelanized the wing triangle on e+ cocks. The genes extracted from black Polish did eumelanized the triangle. I have to take reservation that the number of birds in each category was small, so no more definite conclusions from my side.
You can also see the thread below:

http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=89474#Post89474



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#116230 - 12/19/16 01:23 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
"Recessive Black" gene mentioned in the following:

Jeffrey, F.P. (1988) Crow wing and recessive black in Old English Game bantams. ABA Yearbook, Amherst, MA.

Jeffrey, F.P. & Richardson, W. (1995) Old English Game Bantams as Bred and Shown in the United States. ABA.

* I haven't read the first one (American Bantam Association article). It should be enlightening.

-----------------------
There is also Smyth's eb based Massachusetts Recessive Black Line (a research line), but this is an accumulation of melanisers (including Pg-Ml), not a single gene.

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#116231 - 12/19/16 06:25 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
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Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 949
Loc: Germany
The oldest papers about this topic are:

Kimball, E. (1951). Pyle-Black Plumage in the Fowl. The American Naturalist 1951 85:823, 265-266
I have to scan it, when I am back to University in January.

Punnett, R.C. (1957). Genetic studies in poultry XIII. Recessive black. Journal of Genetics, December 1957, Volume 55, Issue 3, pp 562569.
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post35

Kimball, E. (1959). Recessive Black. Poultry Science,1959, 38 (1): 225-226

http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post34


@ Zenith311 You have to ask the moderator Henk for permission by PM to get access to our documents area.
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=354

PS:
Quote:
Smyth (1994) listed a Birchen allele as ERB, the RB standing for "red-brown downed birchen".

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations1.html#gen_mut_elocus
I think that this is, what Kimball called Pyle Black


Edited by Redcap (12/19/16 08:27 AM)
Edit Reason: Added Henk's Profile
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#116232 - 12/19/16 01:21 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
The Punnett one is available for free online (as most old "Journal of Genetics" papers are):

Genetic studies in poultry XIII. Recessive Black.
R. C. Punnett. 1957.
Journal of Genetics. Volume 55, Number 3, 562-569.
http://www-old.ias.ac.in/jarch/jgenet/55/562.pdf

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#116233 - 12/19/16 02:30 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
There were multiple disagreements on genetics theory by Kimball & geneticists such as Hollander, & later Smyth. Kimball had unusual theories (very hard to follow, not substantiated).

Eg, one of my old posts on Kimball & ER:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=111678#Post111678
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Kimball had some unusual genetics theories (not uncommon for other researchers to disagree at times).

Eg, Smyth in PB&G, p118:
Quote:
An interesting gene cluster hypothesis for the E locus was proposed previously by Kimball (1954a, 1954b), but was flawed by incorporation of the nonexistent columbian allele (e) into a multiple allelic series with E and e+.


See the following paper:
Elliot Kimball
Genetics of Birchen Plumage Pattern in the Fowl
Poultry Science (1954) 33 (3): 472-481 doi:10.3382/ps.0330472
Full paper.
Eg, Fig 1 schematics

E || e^+ || ER
---------------------------
Br || bR || BR

B = Black (b = non-black)
R = restricted (r = non-restricted)
*notation like dominant/recessive inheritance

* E allele = Br (black, no restriction)
* e+ allele = bR (no black, restriction)
* ER allele = BR (black, restricted)

It was like he was suggesting 'independent pattern units' of an allele, & maybe nearby clusters.

Also the ER & 'restricted' notation was based on early 1900's genetics research, using blue birds on solid eumelanin base. 'Restricted' was in reference to homozygous phenotype of blue (whitish), had little to do with E locus alleles phaeomelanin/eumelanin distribution.

But, Kimball's test breeding data & observations are useful.

----------------------------------
Another old post on Kimball & ER:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=109808#Post109808
Originally Posted By: KazJaps

N (Nigrum) (Davenport, 1909) = E today.

P.s., early ER symbol use ([Lippincott], 1918) was not in reference to ER Birchen, but unrelated notation of blue phenotypes on E allele.

Eg,
E = "Extension of pigment" (black)
R = "Restriction"

Er Er = black
ER Er = blue
ER ER = splash

So "ER" was in reference to two mutations on different loci.

Much later Kimball did some testbreeding of Birchen & Brown Red phenotypes, & used the symbol ER again. But there were some discrepancies with his theories & therefore "ER" was not formally accepted at the time, but later Smyth et al. formally described the ER Birchen allele.

-------------------------------
Another post listing the Lippincott 1918 reference:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=112477#Post112477
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
The following paper is quoted sometimes as the first use of ER (Birchen allele), & that R = restricted:

The Case of the Blue Andalusian
William A. Lippincott
The American Naturalist , Vol. 52, No. 614 (Feb. - Mar., 1918) , pp. 95-115
http://www.jstor.org/stable/2456139

But it is also quoted as the first use of E - Extended Black (cited by B&H 1965).

Yes, Lippincott used "E" for 'extension of black', & "R" for 'restricted', but R restriction was in reference to the Bl gene - dose dependent restriction (meaning dilution) of black (eumelanin), not E^R birchen/brown red phenotype - an increase in phaeomelanin to E.

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#116234 - 12/19/16 03:36 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
I don't have the time now to look it up but I have posted previously about Kimball's sg & melanisers (some call it recessive black) plus Sg & stippling (& that Hollander had sg on a gene chart - Pg based secondary patterns (sg instead of Ml), Smyth's doubts on it -eg Sg & stippling, etc). Lots of disagreements over Kimball's sg.

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#116239 - 12/26/16 10:47 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: KazJaps]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
So, how can a melanised black be confused with something like recessive black? is the Melaniser gene recessive? I thought it would be seen on one parent at least. If so, then recessive black can't be the same, can it?

I'm tired from the holidays so maybe I'm not thinking it through well

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#116251 - 01/05/17 05:59 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Redcap]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 949
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Redcap
The oldest papers about this topic are:

Kimball, E. (1951). Pyle-Black Plumage in the Fowl. The American Naturalist 1951 85:823, 265-266
I have to scan it, when I am back to University in January.


I found a digital version and uploaded it.
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post37
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#116260 - 01/08/17 04:25 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Smooth Mule]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3757
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Smooth Mule
So, how can a melanised black be confused with something like recessive black? is the Melaniser gene recessive? I thought it would be seen on one parent at least. If so, then recessive black can't be the same, can it?

I'm tired from the holidays so maybe I'm not thinking it through well


Recessive black does not change the hatching down to black, at least this/those kind I have.

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#116272 - 01/08/17 03:39 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 949
Loc: Germany
In this paper they describe chick down of recessive black as follows:
Quote:
"Considerable extension of black in place of red; chick down mainly chocolate."

http://iloapp.kippenjungle.nl/blog/docum...om=auto,-165,23



Edited by Redcap (01/08/17 03:47 PM)
Edit Reason: Changed Quote
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#116556 - 03/28/17 02:26 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Redcap]
Zenith311 Offline
New Egg

Registered: 03/27/16
Posts: 3
Loc: Pennsylvania
Thank you for all of your responses! They were quite insightful. I hadn't even realized there were responses because I have too many emails for new ones to come in. Haha laugh
A good cleansing is in order.

Truly a great website, it seems that questions rarely go without brilliant responses. Definitely easier to follow in these last few years now that I have a decent grasp on genetics, too, and thankfully so. I'll need that knowledge and understanding with all of my color projects.


Edited by Zenith311 (03/28/17 02:27 PM)

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#116858 - 09/30/17 02:08 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Zenith311]
Smooth Mule Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
SO, recessive black chick down is brown with no hint of red? Chocolate?? No photo's??

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#116861 - 10/01/17 04:27 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Smooth Mule]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3757
Loc: Denmark
If recessive black is on e+, the chicks look just like chipmunks, sometimes with the brown stripes a little darker.

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#116862 - 10/01/17 07:35 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Wieslaw]
Smooth Mule Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
Then feather in black? How would you be able to distinguish that from melanizers?

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#116863 - 10/02/17 02:23 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Smooth Mule]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
The Ml gene (without other modifiers) doesn't change e+, eb or eWh/ey chick down. Crawford's recessive charcoal mutation didn't change wheaten chick down. There are probably multiple recessive eumelanisers.

There is one recessive black that Fred Jeffrey found in USA OEGB. This one did melanise e+ chick down, produces a purplish-black hue in the down.

I don't know if the same mutation(s) but have a look at the Brassy Back OEGB at Cackle Hatchery stock. They have Brassy back chicks in this video, say they get two different colour patterns: https://youtu.be/CH0GW7DuipQ

1 - heavily melanised smoky black chicks, remnant eye stripe, very thin remnant back stripes, head heavily melanised (looks very similar to Quail Belgian Bearded Bantams with Co). The chick legs are a bit melanised too.

2 - slightly melanised e+ chick, more smoky around wings. Central dorsal stripe melanised -smoky, not chestnut. e+ head arrow stripe slightly melanised but still visible.

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#116864 - 10/02/17 02:44 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Note too that Ml is incompletely dominant, sex-influenced mutation. Eg when heterozygous it melanises ER hens quite well, appear mostly black (ie acts fully dominant) but roosters only slightly melanised. So Ml could be mistaken as recessive in some instances with roosters.

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