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#116642 - 06/04/17 06:51 AM Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque)
Robbie Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 258
Loc: Ontario Canada
Does anyone know for sure if the barring on Euskal oiloa chickens is due to autosomal barring? Or do they have the barring gene? Thanks.

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#116644 - 06/05/17 03:03 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Robbie]
dingsda Offline
Bantam

Registered: 09/07/14
Posts: 68
Loc: Germany
from what I see on pictures I would think they have the barring gene. Autosomal barred chicken show a clean silver or golden neck, but the Euskal oiloa are barred all over. The females would show a much more distinctive barring, if autosomal barred.

Would be interesting to learn, why the Euskal oiloa hens have such a faded barring, some actually look like they are not barred at all.

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#116645 - 06/05/17 04:54 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: dingsda]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Yes, mostly eWh Co B

Following 1980 paper (by Campo & Orozco) on test breeding Gold Barred Basque (Euskal Oiloa):
"The action of the sex linked barring gene on Spanish chickens with gold plumage"
https://www.gse-journal.org/articles/gse/pdf/1980/03/AGSE_0003-4002_1980_12_3_ART0002.pdf

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#116646 - 06/05/17 05:15 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
If it is the same breed /variety as "Vasca Roja Barrada" a Spanish article seems to be saying that Light Sussex and New Hampshire are in their ancestry?
Quote:
Es de doble aptitud (puesta y carne). Aunque al principio se formaron otras tres variedades (Roja, Plateada, y Negra), las dos primeras se eliminaron posteriormente del programa al ser idénticas a la New Hampshire y a la Sussex, que en esos años se cruzaban entre sí para obtener la gallina industrial de huevo marrón. Este cruce, sexado genéticamente con el gen plateado de la Sussex, tenía la desventaja de que era igual a las razas de partida (la hembra comercial igual que la New Hampshire y el macho igual que la Sussex), y podía utilizarse para el re-emplazamiento de las aves.


Spanish to English Google translate:
Quote:
Although they were initially formed three other varieties (Red, Silver, and Black), the two were subsequently removed from the program as they were identical to New Hampshire and Sussex, that in those years they crossed each other to obtain the industrial hen of Brown egg this cross, genetically sexed with the gene Silver from the Sussex, had the disadvantage that it was equal to the races of departure (the commercial female the same as the New Hampshire and the male as Sussex), and could be used for the re-emplacement of the birds.


In PB&G, Smyth notes the following on Vasca (non barred red columbian variety):
Quote:
Vasca. eWh/eWh Co/Co db+/db+ Mh?.
The Vasca, like the Prat, is reported to carry eWh and Co, but adults are darker, resembling the New Hampshire (Campo and Orozco, 1983). Pheomelanin color differences appear to be due to a single gene that is dominant for darker coloration. These workers suggest that this could be due to the presence of different Co alleles, or to some other major modifier (possibly Mahogany (Mh), authors suggestion).


Ref:
J. L. Campo F. & Orozco 1983.
Genetics of the columbian plumage pattern in the Vasca chicken breed.
J Hered (1983) 74 (1): 43-46.
Abstract: https://doi.org/10.1093/oxfordjournals.jhered.a109716

Quote:
The Vasca breed has been described by Campo and Orozco 2'3. It was created in 1975 with some domestic fowl types from the Basque region of North Spain, where it is known as "Eusko-olloa."

Even though they had never been selected as a breed, some have distinctive traits that we are trying to stabilize. Due to its short history as a pure breed, there is some variation in plumage coloration, which ranges from solid mahogany red to yellow-hackled red.


* They note in Vasca mostly eWh Co was found, although chick downs similar to e+ and eb suggested these 2 alleles were segregating in low frequencies.

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#116647 - 06/05/17 07:00 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: KazJaps]
Robbie Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 258
Loc: Ontario Canada
Thank you!
The barring in the hens of Marrunda variety is definitely odd, and I was wondering why they looked like that.

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#116649 - 06/06/17 01:16 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Robbie]
Shaneb99 Offline
New Egg

Registered: 09/03/14
Posts: 5
Loc: Alberta
What promoted Robbie's question was a post on another forum where someone had crossed a Black Ameraucana rooster over a Marrunda EO hen and got one solid black rooster and one barred rooster. My understanding is that crossing a solid E/E rooster over a B/- hen should produce all single barred B/b males. So what happened?

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#116650 - 06/06/17 01:30 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Shaneb99]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3824
Loc: Denmark
There can be several explanations , from most probable, to most theoretical:
1) the egg came in reality from another hen( so called confusion)
2)the rooster is perhaps a female with hormone troubles.
3)the gene was deactivated (methylation, epigenetics)

If it would come from the father, other theoretical explanations could be added, like reversion to b+, or deletion of the entire gene.



Edited by Wieslaw (06/06/17 01:56 PM)
Edit Reason: changed text

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#116651 - 06/06/17 03:58 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Wieslaw]
Shaneb99 Offline
New Egg

Registered: 09/03/14
Posts: 5
Loc: Alberta
My theory is the barring on the EO was autosomal not sex linked.

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#116652 - 06/06/17 07:47 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Shaneb99]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Autosomal barred/transverse barring (Pg-Db) on s+ gold base gives gold and black bars, not gold and white bars as B sex-linked barring does on phaeomelanin. It's harder to distinguish autosomal barred from sex-linked barred on S silver based phaeomelanin.

Autosexing breeds Cambars, Queen Silvias etc have both autosomal barring & sex-linked barring.

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#116653 - 06/06/17 08:05 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Note, this Spanish article (article from Spanish chicken research & conservation team) I linked to previously has photos of "Vasca Roja Barrada" (which is the same breed as "Eusko-olloa"). It is quite obvious that these ones are B - sex-linked barred buff columbians, wheaten based (gold & white phaeomelanin, plus black & white eumelanin barring, no autosomal gold & black barring).


Edited by KazJaps (06/06/17 08:08 PM)

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#116657 - 06/07/17 12:02 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: KazJaps]
Shaneb99 Offline
New Egg

Registered: 09/03/14
Posts: 5
Loc: Alberta
The Vasca Rohan Barrada in the link look different from the pictures of Euskal-Oiloa I've seen. They have much more distinct barring whereas many pictures online are very pale cream to buff. There is a Euskal-Oiloa forum but unfortunately it's largely inactive.

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#116700 - 06/29/17 05:41 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Shaneb99]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
The Zwalm Valley fowl is a s+ gold based breed with both B sex-linked barring & autosomal barring. There's a photo at the following website:
http://users.telenet.be/jaak.rousseau/english%20version/grote_hoenders/hoen_van_de_zwalmvallei.htm

Notice how they have white and gold barring on the neck (plus white barred on the body). You only get that white-barred pattern from the B sex-linked barring gene, when s+ gold is present.

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#116701 - 06/29/17 06:16 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
The following Aviculture article (mostly on Braekel) also has some photos of Zwalm Valley fowl:
http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/14E01A14.pdf

* Interesting that the Zottegem - autosomal barred hens have black head /upper neck (feathers) yet the roosters don't, instead have silver or gold only.

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#116702 - 06/29/17 07:14 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: KazJaps]
Robbie Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 258
Loc: Ontario Canada
Thanks KazJaps. I wonder what it is about some of the Marrunda hens that makes their barring so indistinct on the body feathers? This is what I mean, you can barely see it on this hen. There's no barring on the tail, either.


http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd454/Naturespace/goose_zps13bfb746.png

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#116703 - 06/29/17 09:52 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Robbie]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3824
Loc: Denmark
It's not only Marrunda hens. I had a mutt who practically lost barring on pheomelanin after the first molting.

As a chick
http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Chicks/BarredVolwerk2.jpg

As an adult:

http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Columbian%20restriction/DSC03906.jpg

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#116705 - 06/29/17 05:06 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
It is interesting Robbie that this hen doesn't have obvious barring on the black tail either. Sort of a head to tail gradient happening, like happens with Bl/bl+ hens too. Mind you, she is very light barred on the neck also.

Did your hen Wieslaw also lose barring on the tail?

I imagine part of it has to do with the differences of the cuckoo phenotype - not clean white bars but lighter pigment (both eumelanin & phaeomelanin), compared to crisper exhibition barred with clean white bars. With the cuckoo pattern, there isn't enough contrast when the phaeomelanin is a light buff. Ie, easier to see B barring on a dark red.

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#116707 - 06/30/17 01:04 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3824
Loc: Denmark
Kazjaps, my hen did not lose barring on the tail

Off topic

Do I understand correctly, that it is no longer possible to link to photobucket for free? All my pictures have disappeared. What is the difference between linking and 3rd party hosting ?


Edited by Wieslaw (06/30/17 01:14 AM)
Edit Reason: added the off topic question

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#116708 - 06/30/17 05:57 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Wieslaw]
Robbie Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 258
Loc: Ontario Canada
Thanks KazJaps.I had a quick peek at some photos of lemon and lavender cuckoo orpington hens, some of them have very indistinct barring too although the barring seems better on the lavender hens. So it must be the light background colour, and perhaps the barring gene is not as good at restricting the deposition of pheomelanin?
PS: Photobucket is becoming more and more obnoxious.I post photos to postimage.org, but they used to be more user-friendly too.


Edited by Robbie (06/30/17 06:07 AM)

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#116720 - 07/02/17 09:04 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Robbie]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Wieslaw, I just posted an image ok from Photobucket.

But when I last posted June 29th, I had noticed that Photobucket had changed the procedures & photo sharing steps again. I had trouble copying the img url directly from Photobucket, but luckily I only needed old photos, so got the img links directly from The Coop - old thread, to completely avoid Photobucket (& their pop-up ads). But while I was at Photobucket, I do recall them trying to "pitch" to me to do something, while I was exploring "more" and the "share" button. Maybe you clicked something there that changed your settings?

To copy a photo's img url now, all I'm doing while in the share window is click (highlight) the img url text, & then right click _ copy (text). Then paste into a post. I'm not using that "Share" button in the Photobucket share window, as it seems faulty.

Before the recent changes, all you had to do was click into the IMG url text box & wait for "copied" to indicate it was ready to paste elsewhere, but they have stopped this easy procedure.

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#116725 - 07/03/17 12:24 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3824
Loc: Denmark
Kazjaps, I did not change anything. For the past 2 months or so I have been "harassed" with emails from photobuck. stating, that my storage is 90% full, and they have a very good offer (= paying for more storage). I did not react, as I'm on a tight budget at the moment. The tone of the emails was strange in my perception (they begin an email with something like" So, our last offer was not good for you???). Now I have discovered that all my pictures I have ever posted on the Polish forum and on this forum are GONE. It reminds me of the offer from the Godfather movie (the one you can't refuse). They now want people to pay for hosting pictures for the third party (i.e. I can have my pictures, but I can't show them to others)
There is a new bar at the top of the opening picture. It says they updated their terms. You can buy yourself free from adverts (which are placed on the library to make your experience as miserable as possible). Try to see the current reviews (400 dolars!!!).

https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.photobucket.com


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#116730 - 07/03/17 04:17 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Wieslaw]
SKGray21 Offline
Bantam

Registered: 09/01/16
Posts: 56
Loc: Kauai, HI, USA
Photobucket messed up my album with my game bantam pics and they were all gone from my library, support was no help. I had linked directly to the images in my thread so the images didn't disappear. I switched to flickr after that.

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#116742 - 07/08/17 02:22 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: SKGray21]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Wieslaw,

I got the first Photobucket email warning today that I had to upgrade to their plus 500 plan (which costs US $399) for any 3rd party hosting of images (eg posting img tags in forums). Didn't give me 24 hrs before their extortion threat was executed.

P.s. - they haven't crippled (as yet) showing thumbnails. So if you put th_ in front of the image file name, at least you can see a smaller version of the image.

Eg, Wieslaw, to show your profile /avatar image, you can use the following url address in img tags (notice how I changed the image file name from male.jpg to th_male.jpg):

Code:
[img]http://i834.photobucket.com/albums/zz261/wieslawl59/Rhododendrons/th_male.jpg[/img]



------------------------------
I'll be moving my images to another image webhost. But unfortunately I won't be able to edit / correct previous Photobucket image links here at The Coop in old threads (due to no admin access to old posts to change broken links).

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#116748 - 07/16/17 02:06 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3824
Loc: Denmark
I will be moving my images too, the worst thing is I do not have much time at the moment. There is a strong sense of panic on the Internet that the whole thing can collapse any minute. I think millions of people are trying to retrieve their pictures at the same time, so it is even slower than before.

Kazjaps, I think your pictures are too important to be lost, as many of the old valuable threads would be much less useful without them. If you want I will post on the moderator lounge to grant you the access. Of course nobody will expect you to repair all of them overnight, but nice and slowly during long winter nights?

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#117188 - 06/20/18 04:58 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Wieslaw]
naquerano Offline
New Egg

Registered: 06/07/18
Posts: 2
Loc: spain
Barring on Euskal Oiloa is sex linked. Sure.

The correct name for the barred gold wheaten columbia variety is "Marraduna", not marrunda.

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#117195 - 06/25/18 02:28 PM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: naquerano]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3824
Loc: Denmark
Thank you for the correction and welcome to the coop. I hope you stay longer as we have some holes in our knowledge of some Spanish breeds.

Off topic
Since the Photobucket closed their services for 3rd party linking, I have been regularly receiving new mails from them with new offers. I have been busy with my new job so I did not follow the offers, but if I recall correctly one of them said 100 dollars(initially 399 dollars).

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#117203 - 06/27/18 09:59 AM Re: Barring on Euskal Oiloa chickens (Basque) [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Off topic...
I was slow to realise that Photobucket is up and running again, they have reversed the cripple on 3rd party linking.
Lol, now I have to change all the thumbnails to full size images.

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