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#116829 - 09/25/17 06:09 PM White roo over black hens
Smooth Mule Offline
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Loc: Missouri
I bred a white Araucana roo I got from a friend who has bred nothing but white Araucana's the past 5 years. All her chicks are yellow so I'm "assuming" dominant whites. She never hatched anything but yellow chicks that feathered in white.

I breed this white rooster to my black Araucana hens for a couple white pullets to keep and breed back to him because my hens are larger and robust compared to her whites. Set a handful/staggered hatches.

As expected, the first 4 hatch. All yellow down. Showing white feathers coming in......

Then 3 more hatched today. A white...and 2 that appear to be blue. How the heck? I figured her flock was pretty much homozygous for dominant white. My hens are EE.

What happened? I can't even think straight at the moment

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#116830 - 09/26/17 07:50 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Hen-Gen Online   content
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I'm gay so I can't think straight any of the time. smirk

To be serious, first the easy bit. Dominant white Leghorns are often splash as well as this helps counteract the notorious leakiness of dominant white. I assume that this would be the case in Araucanas too.
One can only assume that the cockerel is not homozygous for dominant white. I can't think of any other explanation.


Edited by Hen-Gen (09/26/17 07:51 AM)
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#116832 - 09/26/17 04:18 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Hen-Gen]
Redcap Online   content
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Hasn't the blue gene be introduced in commerical strains due to positive effects on behaviour or production?
Kazjaps? Can You remember to facts into this direction?

Edit: I think it was feather pecking behaviour regulated by PMEL17 (and homogeneous growth of the flock?).


Edited by Redcap (09/26/17 05:23 PM)
Edit Reason: Added some thoughts
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#116833 - 09/27/17 01:28 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Redcap]
Kaalnek Offline
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Registered: 07/16/02
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Loc: California
One possibility is both dominant and recessive white are present. If the stock is pure for recessive white, it's very easy for the stock to be het. for dom white and you just never know it.

Until those are bred to blacks....

I agree with others the blue probably was present or even deliberately bred into the whites. It's common for white stock to make use of barring, mottle, blue, silver to help clean or crispen up the white.

Maybe wait for the chicks to feather up though.. maybe the initial impressions are not exactly correct. I was surprised by not so quite typically barred or is it blue or is it both? chicks from a show stock white Naked Neck bred to a black. Later breeding showed them to be B^sd, nothing else. Now that was something I never expected to find..

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#116835 - 09/27/17 02:17 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Kaalnek]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
Yes Redcap, it was research on behavioral effects of I dominant white (PMEL17 locus mutation). I haven't read the research though, only skimmed. Was wondering though if they needed to be E or ER eumelanin based, & I/I homozygous, as Lohmann Browns & Isa Browns (I/i+ dominant white red columbian) were known to be more cannibalistic /feather peckers when first imported to Australia.

-----------------

I wonder Kaalnek if someone had used White Leghorns to develop that line of White Naked Necks? Seems a good place to search for B^Sd is commercial White Leghorns, going by recent research.

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#116839 - 09/28/17 12:07 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: KazJaps]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
Here are some pics, sorry, I can't seem to post photo's here anymore so these are links. They are not typical blue to my eye.

Picture one




Edited by Smooth Mule (09/28/17 12:08 PM)
Edit Reason: picture not right

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#116840 - 09/28/17 12:09 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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#116841 - 09/28/17 12:12 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Is this blue? Doesn't look like the blues I've ever hatched or blacks.

another of the same chick

Today,
Feather tips

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#116842 - 09/28/17 07:09 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
Smooth Mule, I hope you don't mind, but I've just tested out imgur (image hosting website) with copying your chick photos to imgur, using the Facebook url (links) that you posted. It was very quick to do, imgur saves the image directly from the url (link) provided (ie don't have to upload the image from your computer).

Here are your chick photos:
Picture one

------------
picture 2 same chick

------------
another of the same chick

------------
Today, Feather tips

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#116843 - 09/28/17 09:17 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
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Loc: Australia
Smooth Mule, your chick phenotype could have easily hatched out of my sex-linked spotty pens (particularly the white patch on the back, also sometimes white patch on head).

* Left e+/e+ spotty & Right ER/e+ spotty

See this thread on Barring locus "New 2017 B locus paper - 3 mutation alleles"
* This discusses B^Sd sex-linked dilution and the newly discovered B locus allele Sex-linked Extreme Dilution. The latter day-old chicks when heterozygous on E have the white patch on the back, plus back of head too.

Also, Lanae was segregating similar spotty phenotype in Arauacanas to my Australian pitgames:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108964#Post108964
But these were crossed back to wheatens, so on a different E locus allele, chicks were white.

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#116845 - 09/29/17 03:28 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: KazJaps]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Thank you and yes, they look like that. I've bred my blacks for years with nothing else added. The white rooster must be carrying this B^Sd dilution.

What do you think these will mature to colorwise? White with spots?

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#116849 - 09/29/17 02:35 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: KazJaps]
Kaalnek Offline
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 415
Loc: California
Ahh! I had posted pictures on here of B^Sd chicks- homozygous cockerel and het pullet, also adult cockerel and pullet. Unfortunately they were hosted on photobucket and the laptop the originals were on had crashed....

The het cockerels and pullets don't look too far off from that chick. Essentially a much lighter than normal B pattern.

Edit- had not thought of Leghorns as a source. If those chicks prove to be B^Sd, it would seem to be it is far more widely used in the hobby than realized? My source was show bred white Naked Necks.


Edited by Kaalnek (09/29/17 02:37 PM)

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#116850 - 09/29/17 02:40 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Kaalnek Offline
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 415
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Smooth Mule
Thank you and yes, they look like that. I've bred my blacks for years with nothing else added. The white rooster must be carrying this B^Sd dilution.

What do you think these will mature to colorwise? White with spots?


if B^Sd, it will feather out like a really light barred/cuckoo.

Homozygous roosters are white with 'grey spots and flecks'

It is excellent for cleaning up white and legs for sure.

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#116851 - 09/29/17 07:35 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Kaalnek]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
So using these in a White flock is not a bad idea? And YES I've seen a LOT of Araucana's with that whitish/barred color as adults. Not fond of that color at All but if they make better whites, They can at least be useful.

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#116852 - 09/29/17 07:50 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: KazJaps]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
What exactly is Imgur? Is it free? Limits on uploads?

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#116853 - 09/30/17 02:45 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
Kaalnek, some of your photos from this post:





What I did to bring up Photobucket thumbnail size images (the only size available to link for free) is to put th_ (th with an underscore) in front of the image file name, eg changed the original filename barredboy8.jpg to th_barredboy8.jpg.
The full img code url (link):
Code:
[img]http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh56/kaalnek2/th_barredboy8.jpg[/img]

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#116854 - 09/30/17 03:26 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Smooth Mule
What exactly is Imgur? Is it free? Limits on uploads?


Yes, imgur image web hosting site (https://imgur.com/) is free. You can upload as many images as you want (unlimited) except only allowed to upload 50 images per hour.
- FAQ - how to upload images
- FAQ -how to share images for Forums
* What you need is the BBCode for forums

I'll put further step by step instructions in the sticky "Posting Photos" thread.

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#116859 - 09/30/17 02:34 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: KazJaps]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
Is there a leg color linked to this gene?

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#116860 - 09/30/17 08:39 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
I need to take some time to find some of the pictures shared on BYC. There were a LOT of ghostly barred Araucana's posted. I've had some myself in the past.

So the gene for this has just been discovered? Any idea how it works?

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#116865 - 10/02/17 02:59 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2798
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Smooth Mule
Is there a leg color linked to this gene?


Yes, Id locus (inhibitor of dermal pigment) is closely linked to B locus (barring, sex-linked dilution, sex-linked extreme dilution) 14%. But previous research by Punnett etc have noted B-id+ individuals (through test breeding), so they know that the B gene itself dilutes id+ dermal pigment too, as well as E or ER epidermal pigment.

The sex-linked spotty mutation dilutes id+ dermal, & E epidermal pigment very well, including beak colour, & dark eye colour is diluted to orange. I haven't confirmed as yet as to whether spotty is an allele of the B locus. No wild-type chicks have segregated from my het. spotty/barred rooster (to spotty or crele hens), only spotty so far. But I haven't segregated B/- or B/B without spotty from him either so far. Need to set more....

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#116866 - 10/03/17 10:30 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: KazJaps]
Kaalnek Offline
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 415
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Kaalnek,
What I did to bring up Photobucket thumbnail size images (the only size available to link for free) is to put th_ (th with an underscore) in front of the image file name, eg changed the original


Nice find and thank you! Yeah those were the pictures I was talking about. Saved them despite being fuzzy thumbnails, thanks again.

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#116867 - 10/03/17 10:37 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Kaalnek Offline
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Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 415
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Smooth Mule
So using these in a White flock is not a bad idea? And YES I've seen a LOT of Araucana's with that whitish/barred color as adults. Not fond of that color at All but if they make better whites, They can at least be useful.


Right, excellent in helping clean the white and getting the legs a sparkly clean even color(either white or yellow only though)- notice even the hen has very clear legs, despite having only one copy of the gene(sex linked). Compare that to normal barring as on barred rocks- common for hens to have some black coloring to various degrees on their legs and toes.

As for personal taste- I did not care for this color very much either- don't have any more examples of this gene in flock. It was an interesting surprise and little project to work with- bred them together to get homozygous roosters, to see if there was anything else such as blue, mottle or..? that could have accounted for making them so pale. Nothing else, just this single B^Sd thing, every other bird without it were normal black.

It is absolutely reliable and extremely clear autosexing trait. I could even sex the chicks once they externally pipped/started to zip around the egg.. No need for them to come out and dry off first, the difference was that startling. So that's another big plus for this gene- much less confusion than with the other commonly available autosexing breeds- I saw posts asking for 'gender guesses' on legbars on byc far too often....


Edited by Kaalnek (10/03/17 10:48 AM)

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#116868 - 10/06/17 06:24 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Kaalnek]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
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Loc: Missouri
Auto sexing? Can you explain a little simpler for me how they are sexed then? Thanks

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#116869 - 10/06/17 06:47 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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And another question, did this come out because I bred the white roo to my black hens? And is a gene in the white roo, not the black hens so it's visual now? Is there any benefit for my white pen, to breed for more of these chicks or is it fine to just know the white rooster carries this gene? I want to make the most of him.

And, I planned to breed white daughters back to him. Will that change things. Is this gene something better when homozygous? or will his daughters out of black hens showing the gene....bred back to him, be good choices?

Regarding leg color...The rooster is from a few generations of all yellow legged whites..no green. I knew going in that I wanted to avoid using cockerels from this cross, I am concerned that I could bring in the green leg gene from my black hens.

Can this gene, that cleans up leg color, hide the gene for green legs? If I bred a yellow legged hen from this ...could she produce green legged offspring if the gene B^sd is present?

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#116872 - 10/14/17 07:39 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
Another question, it was commented that the BO gene might clean up the color, and I took that to mean remove the green from the yellow legs. But in reading more, would this not "dilute" the yellow leg color rather than remove the green? This is important to me because I want to deepen the yellow in the leg color, not dilute it and this might explain why one of the pullets I got from a breeder who has nice yellow legs in the flock, has nearly white legs and why it can be possible to breed deep yellow legged to deep yellow legged and produce some chicks with much paler yellow legs

and another question, since I don't catch all the genetic lingo in the PDF file, Can hemizygous males then, have deep yellow legs yet pass the BO to offspring resulting in paler yellow in the legs? I am assuming hens would already have pale legs if hemizygous for it

This may be very beneficial information to understand and work through as I develop my white Araucana flock.

Additionally, my black Araucana hens.... I immediately blamed the white rooster for obvious reasons for the unusual color on the chicks. This white rooster has pretty good yellow color on his legs so would that not indicate he is hemizygous for BO (if indeed he is the cause of this color chick)? And is it possible that my hens being black could carry this gene? If any of the black hens had come from barred breeding (and I no history on them all), could the gene be present but not expressed on black or possibly be the cause of paler yellow skin (soles of feet since they have black legs)? Some of my black hens have nice dark yellow soles that pale some when they are laying and some were paler yellow from the start? I have had mixed success in breeding for deep yellow skin on my blacks as well.



Edited by Smooth Mule (10/14/17 07:51 AM)
Edit Reason: additional question

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#116873 - 10/14/17 07:56 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
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Loc: Missouri
I recall a thread on yellow legged black poultry but haven't been able to find it again. I have had deep yellow legs on a couple of my black hens that were clearly and cleanly deep yellow. This leads me to wonder, as well, if that line (the original hens name was India) might have had BO but not expressed in the feathers since she was solid black...or is there another gene responsible for this?

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#116874 - 10/14/17 08:00 AM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
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Loc: Missouri
This is India. She came to me near adult with absolutely no background other than being in a flock of mixed colors. Her legs were deep yellow, even in lay

[img]https://i.imgur.com/Dpt8iPT.jpg?1[/img]


Edited by Smooth Mule (10/14/17 08:02 AM)

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#116896 - 11/03/17 04:36 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Kaalnek]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: Kaalnek
Originally Posted By: Smooth Mule
So using these in a White flock is not a bad idea? And YES I've seen a LOT of Araucana's with that whitish/barred color as adults. Not fond of that color at All but if they make better whites, They can at least be useful.


Right, excellent in helping clean the white and getting the legs a sparkly clean even color(either white or yellow only though)- notice even the hen has very clear legs, despite having only one copy of the gene(sex linked). Compare that to normal barring as on barred rocks- common for hens to have some black coloring to various degrees on their legs and toes.

As for personal taste- I did not care for this color very much either- don't have any more examples of this gene in flock. It was an interesting surprise and little project to work with- bred them together to get homozygous roosters, to see if there was anything else such as blue, mottle or..? that could have accounted for making them so pale. Nothing else, just this single B^Sd thing, every other bird without it were normal black.

It is absolutely reliable and extremely clear autosexing trait. I could even sex the chicks once they externally pipped/started to zip around the egg.. No need for them to come out and dry off first, the difference was that startling. So that's another big plus for this gene- much less confusion than with the other commonly available autosexing breeds- I saw posts asking for 'gender guesses' on legbars on byc far too often....


Explain how the autosexing for this gene works
Please

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#116897 - 11/03/17 04:45 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
Updated photo, one of the chicks that is feathering in now.

Anyone wanting to use these photo's to share or discuss this topic is welcome to them.


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#116898 - 11/03/17 04:49 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
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#116899 - 11/03/17 04:51 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Loc: Missouri


Does anyone else see faint striping on beak?

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#116900 - 11/03/17 04:51 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
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#116901 - 11/03/17 04:52 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri

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#116902 - 11/03/17 04:54 PM Re: White roo over black hens [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 629
Loc: Missouri
Leg color is pretty clean.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/0ubZ3Hv.jpg?1[/img]


Edited by Smooth Mule (11/03/17 04:55 PM)

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