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#116272 - 01/08/17 03:39 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Wieslaw]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 954
Loc: Germany
In this paper they describe chick down of recessive black as follows:
Quote:
"Considerable extension of black in place of red; chick down mainly chocolate."

http://iloapp.kippenjungle.nl/blog/docum...om=auto,-165,23



Edited by Redcap (01/08/17 03:47 PM)
Edit Reason: Changed Quote
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#116556 - 03/28/17 02:26 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Redcap]
Zenith311 Offline
New Egg

Registered: 03/27/16
Posts: 3
Loc: Pennsylvania
Thank you for all of your responses! They were quite insightful. I hadn't even realized there were responses because I have too many emails for new ones to come in. Haha laugh
A good cleansing is in order.

Truly a great website, it seems that questions rarely go without brilliant responses. Definitely easier to follow in these last few years now that I have a decent grasp on genetics, too, and thankfully so. I'll need that knowledge and understanding with all of my color projects.


Edited by Zenith311 (03/28/17 02:27 PM)

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#116858 - 09/30/17 02:08 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Zenith311]
Smooth Mule Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 637
Loc: Missouri
SO, recessive black chick down is brown with no hint of red? Chocolate?? No photo's??

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#116861 - 10/01/17 04:27 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Smooth Mule]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3769
Loc: Denmark
If recessive black is on e+, the chicks look just like chipmunks, sometimes with the brown stripes a little darker.

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#116862 - 10/01/17 07:35 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Wieslaw]
Smooth Mule Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 637
Loc: Missouri
Then feather in black? How would you be able to distinguish that from melanizers?

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#116863 - 10/02/17 02:23 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Smooth Mule]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
The Ml gene (without other modifiers) doesn't change e+, eb or eWh/ey chick down. Crawford's recessive charcoal mutation didn't change wheaten chick down. There are probably multiple recessive eumelanisers.

There is one recessive black that Fred Jeffrey found in USA OEGB. This one did melanise e+ chick down, produces a purplish-black hue in the down.

I don't know if the same mutation(s) but have a look at the Brassy Back OEGB at Cackle Hatchery stock. They have Brassy back chicks in this video, say they get two different colour patterns: https://youtu.be/CH0GW7DuipQ

1 - heavily melanised smoky black chicks, remnant eye stripe, very thin remnant back stripes, head heavily melanised (looks very similar to Quail Belgian Bearded Bantams with Co). The chick legs are a bit melanised too.

2 - slightly melanised e+ chick, more smoky around wings. Central dorsal stripe melanised -smoky, not chestnut. e+ head arrow stripe slightly melanised but still visible.

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#116864 - 10/02/17 02:44 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
Note too that Ml is incompletely dominant, sex-influenced mutation. Eg when heterozygous it melanises ER hens quite well, appear mostly black (ie acts fully dominant) but roosters only slightly melanised. So Ml could be mistaken as recessive in some instances with roosters.

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#116921 - 11/25/17 07:43 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: KazJaps]
Smooth Mule Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 637
Loc: Missouri
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Note too that Ml is incompletely dominant, sex-influenced mutation. Eg when heterozygous it melanises ER hens quite well, appear mostly black (ie acts fully dominant) but roosters only slightly melanised. So Ml could be mistaken as recessive in some instances with roosters.


That much I knew. Just trying to determine how to identify recessive black. Are there specific breeds it's known in? or other methods to help identify?

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#116922 - 11/25/17 02:54 PM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Smooth Mule]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3769
Loc: Denmark
One of the recessive blacks that was segregating with me came from bantam black Polish. Unlike other eumelanizers, it practically totally eumelanized e+ birds, including males´wing triangles and females' breasts. It did NOT eumelanize chick down.

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#116926 - 11/27/17 04:27 AM Re: Recessive Black? [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2807
Loc: Australia
Fred Jeffrey's recessive black was in USA OEGB (blacks, brassy backs, quail, etc). But Smyth also found a dominant charcoal-like melaniser in Brassy-back OEG. In Cote's study of black OEGB, they didn't find Ml in a rooster (although it did have other unidentified melaniser(s)).

Crawford's recessive charcoal is very closely linked to P peacomb locus (0.3 %) & to O Blue eggshell locus (4 %). This was a mixed research line that had the following origins:
Quote:
The stock under study had been maintained as a closed flock for about 20 generations. It has been traced to a male of unknown origin carrying genes for pea comb and blue egg, mated with Brown Leghorn and Rhode Island Red females. Comb type and plumage were variable in early generations of the population, but the birds were gradually selected for the pea-combed wheaten phenotype. Despite selection, the black phenotype continued to segregate within the population as if it were an autosomal recessive trait, usually appearing in combination with single comb.

For several generations prior to the present study, the stock had been held in two separate groups; one of them bred pure for single comb, black plumage, and blue eggshell; the other segregated for pea and single comb, black and wheaten plumage, and blue and brown eggshell.


Crawford, R.D. 1986. Linkage Between Pea Comb and Melanotic Plumage Loci in Chickens. Poultry Science, Volume 65, Issue 10, 1 October 1986, Pages 1859–1862.

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