Topic Options
#116968 - 12/20/17 04:20 PM Blue Wheaten
John Offline
Chicken

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 83
Loc: Michigan
Is it genetically possible to achieve Andalusian type lacing, in the blue areas, on the blue wheaten variety?
Pg, Ml & Co are supposedly needed for true lacing. Columbian will change the breast color on wheaten and wildtype, but will that still happen when all three genes are working together?
Henk's calculator shows fully laced birds when I plug in the genes, just as if on ER.
_________________________
John W Blehm
http://FowlStuff.com

Top
#116969 - 12/21/17 04:44 PM Re: Blue Wheaten [Re: John]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2870
Loc: Australia
Check out Bl/bl+ varieties where Pg is present, but not Co, nor E or E based. Eg Blue double-laced Indian Games & Barnevelders, Blue Partridge Wyandottes & Brahmas, etc. Sometimes you can see blue single lacing in neck hackles both genders, & sometimes with males (ie breast etc). But usually it's not anywhere near exhibition Blue Andalusian quality.

Co columbian (or any eumelanin restrictor) is probably not needed for single lacing in E or ER solid eumelanin base Bl/bl+ blues (eg, nice blue lacing can be seen in OEG / pit game lines where Co is definitely not present). Jury still out as to whether Co improves blue lacing in solid eumelanin base (I'm not aware of anyone test breeding to determine this -only saying whether Co present or not in a bird).

Also, I had Jap Bantams Lemon Blue / Silver Blue (ie ER base) with blue lacing. So I don't even think Ml is needed with Pg, but Ml probably helps thicken the lacing.

Top
#116970 - 12/21/17 05:25 PM Re: Blue Wheaten [Re: KazJaps]
John Offline
Chicken

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 83
Loc: Michigan
Our North American APA Standard of Perfection defines lacing as a “very distinct” moderately contrasting border around the entire web of a feather and edging as a “very narrow” (not so distinct) border. The two are similar, but different.
We see "edging" on blue wheatens, but not true Show Quality lacing.
I'm inclined to believe the good Co, Pg, Ml required lacing isn't possible on wheaten or wildtype, due to Columbian. If that is true, maybe our Standard should be changed from "BREAST: Blue, preferably laced with dark blue" to edged with dark blue and omit preferably. On the other hand I believe since it doesn't require lacing, but only recognizes it as preferable it may still be the goal to strive for. 
_________________________
John W Blehm
http://FowlStuff.com

Top
#116971 - 12/21/17 08:27 PM Re: Blue Wheaten [Re: John]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2870
Loc: Australia
What is your Blue Red Standard description for males (ie e+ Bl/bl+)? Blue Wheaten males should be very similar to Blue Red, except maybe lighter undercolour for eWh wheatens, etc. Both varieties should be pg+/pg+ (otherwise Pg hens with pencilling/lacing), therefore there shouldn't be any true thick blue lacing as found in Andalusians.

Otherwise, with pg+/pg+ Bl/bl+, it seems to be due more to the tone of blue than anything. In non- American Standards there are breeds with Bl/bl+ pg+/pg+ non-laced blue (self blue) Standards, such as Blue Leghorns, Blue Modern Games, etc. Note, they can't be lav/lav lavenders as non-laced blue Bl/bl+ males typically have darker top colour (unlike lavenders) & this Bl/bl+ trait often described in the Standard, but is a flaw in lavender Standards.

Top
#116972 - 12/21/17 09:53 PM Re: Blue Wheaten [Re: KazJaps]
John Offline
Chicken

Registered: 04/21/11
Posts: 83
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
What is your Blue Red Standard description for males (ie e+ Bl/bl+)?


I believe it is basically the blue version of black breasted Red (aka B. B. Red), just as a blue wheaten is to a wheaten.


Edited by John (01/29/18 09:38 AM)
_________________________
John W Blehm
http://FowlStuff.com

Top


Moderator:  Admin @ The Coop, Henk69 
Who's Online
0 registered (), 86 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Shout Box