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#117131 - 04/06/18 02:52 AM Can Dun and Dominant white be
Smooth Mule Offline
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Can dun and dominant white exist on the same bird?

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#117147 - 04/14/18 12:53 PM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Smooth Mule]
Wieslaw Offline
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Yes, they are alleles, so heterozygous I/Id. But I do not know whether they can be expressed at the same time. (Perhaps in case of mosaicism - loss/deactivation of the dominant gene on a part of the body)

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#117152 - 04/18/18 10:40 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Wieslaw]
Smooth Mule Offline
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I bought some chicks and was informed that the yellow ones would be dominant white plus dun. I didn't think that was possible. And thanks for responding

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#117153 - 04/18/18 10:42 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Smooth Mule]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Do I understand this right? They can be het for both dun and dominant white, but that should mean they cannot be homozygous for either?

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#117155 - 04/18/18 02:14 PM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Smooth Mule]
Wieslaw Offline
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They are alleles(occupy the same locus), so they can't be both homozygous at the same time. Possible combinations are I/I, Id/Id or I/Id. There can't be any other combination out of the two.

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#117156 - 04/22/18 12:06 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Wieslaw]
Henk69 Offline
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I/Id would be white, when there is leakage: with chocolate spots

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#117157 - 04/23/18 01:36 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Henk69]
Hen-Gen Offline
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Indeed. Dominant white is notoriously leaky which is why dominant white breeds like the White Leghorn often are also silver, splash and barred to help mitigate against this leakiness.
I never use the word chocolate in relation to dun in order to avoid confusion with the two known mutations of chocolate found in the chicken.

I'll crawl back into my box now smile


Edited by Hen-Gen (04/23/18 01:37 AM)
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#117158 - 04/25/18 11:51 PM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Hen-Gen]
Henk69 Offline
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Chocolate is a phenotypic descriptor. Dun and choc birds look the same. The way they look should have one name... wink

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#117159 - 04/27/18 12:30 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Henk69]
Hen-Gen Offline
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.................... er, right. Taxi! wink


Edited by Hen-Gen (04/27/18 12:31 AM)
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#117160 - 04/29/18 01:57 PM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Henk69]
Sonoran Silkies Offline
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Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: Henk69
Chocolate is a phenotypic descriptor. Dun and choc birds look the same. The way they look should have one name... wink
I agree, although I usually say "chocolate coloured" at least once when there could be confusion between dun and choc.

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#117161 - 05/01/18 05:23 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Sonoran Silkies]
Hen-Gen Offline
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Some dun birds look similar to chocolate birds. Others have a greyish cast which do not resemble chocolate birds at all.
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#117162 - 05/03/18 08:13 PM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Henk69]
Smooth Mule Offline
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But to me, they do Not look the same at all. My recessive/sex linked chocolates are a warm tone of brown. The Duns have all been a cooler tone

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#117164 - 05/08/18 09:27 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Smooth Mule]
Sonoran Silkies Offline
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I've had both genotypes that were cooler or warmer in hue. I think it has to do more with silver/gold than with which kind of chocolate they are.

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#117168 - 05/13/18 06:26 PM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Sonoran Silkies]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
The following from Ziehl & Hollander's 1987 paper on Dun:

Quote:
The phenomenon of black "flecking" is prominent in I/i+ chickens (Hollander, 1944) and indicates instability. By contrast, most of our dun chickens have rarely shown any flecks. The heterozygotes I/ID have shown a relatively small number of flecks, and these are dun in color.


Ref:
Ziehl & Hollander, 1987. Dun, a new plumage-color mutant at the I-locus in the fowl (Gallus gallus). IOWA STATE JOURNAL OF RESEARCH I NOVEMBER, 1987 VoL 62, No.2 337-342.

*Note, Ziehl & Hollander gave the dun mutation the symbol ID, ie capital D for dun.

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#117173 - 05/13/18 09:39 PM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
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Originally Posted By: Henk69
Chocolate is a phenotypic descriptor. Dun and choc birds look the same. The way they look should have one name... wink

Then maybe that one descriptive name should be brown (or anything that doesn't also define a known mutation) smile

Eg, that is why I don't describe the following as dun, chocolate etc anymore, now knowing they don't have ID dun or choc mutations. I just use the traditional pit game variety name "Coffee", as this name not taken by unrelated brown phenotypes with different genotypes/ mutations:

Coffee Australian pit game bantams:


And why I was happy to see the name "Mocha" used for a brownish autosomal recessive mutation that occurred in the UK (similar traits to pink-eye dilute, except eye colour usually darker & plumage a richer brown).

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#117174 - 05/14/18 01:31 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: KazJaps]
Hen-Gen Offline
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Registered: 10/01/05
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Loc: Island of Fetlar, Shetland
Originally Posted By: KazJaps


And why I was happy to see the name "Mocha" used for a brownish autosomal recessive mutation that occurred in the UK (similar traits to pink-eye dilute, except eye colour usually darker & plumage a richer brown).


I was familiar with this mutation because it first arose in Bantam Minorcas. However I did not know that the name 'mocha' had been ascribed to it. You live and learn! grin
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#117175 - 05/14/18 04:15 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: Hen-Gen]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Just a descriptive name. Waiting for DNA testing.... smile

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#117177 - 05/27/18 10:22 AM Re: Can Dun and Dominant white be [Re: KazJaps]
Smooth Mule Offline
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Loc: Missouri
I'll be following.

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