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#117189 - 06/23/18 04:46 PM Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
I have been trying to figure out the genetics of my chickens and a friend's chickens for close to a year now. No one on the facebook genetics pages have a clue. Today I stumbled on a thread here on the classroom coop about game birds having a sexlinked spotty gene, and I can't help but wonder if this is what my birds have. Is the color/pattern an allele of the barring gene? Does it look different on chickens with slow feather growth vs fast feather growth? Here is a link to some of my birds, and two birds that a friend owns, sired by the same rooster as my birds.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/sullys.island.farm/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1786002538132016

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#117190 - 06/23/18 05:04 PM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Here is the photo album of the father of the chickens in my photo album linked in my first post.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/arithmachickacres/photos/?tab=album&album_id=2253435304884350

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#117192 - 06/25/18 06:21 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Hi PurpleSully,

I wasn't able to open the first link, but could open the 2nd post link. Interesting change in phenotype from day-old to adult. Aust. pit game spotty males don't usually go through as prominent a faint grey barring juvenile stage like your one, usually only the occasional faint barred feather (& this more common in pullets).

Here's an old thread on the 2017 B alleles paper:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116609

And this thread where B^Sd or similar alleles have segregated in Naked Necks and Araucanas.
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116849&page=all

I know in white broilers here in Australia, with test breeding by a breeder, a similar phenotype to gamefowl sex-linked spotty has segregated. And one rooster was similar to your rooster, had a large patch of colour (black, specks of gold) on the saddle, but the tail faint ghost grey barred. No idea if it is the same mutation as in spotty gamefowl. Usually the adult spotties don't have large patches of colour, normally single feathers.

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#117193 - 06/25/18 12:10 PM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
KazJaps, thank you. I'll look at those two links you shared.

Maybe some of these link to my birds will work better? I'm new to this forum so I appreciate your patience.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=...mp;l=ec5b356e24

Keeper's chicks from a Black Ameraucana
https://imgur.com/wjJpEE7
https://imgur.com/ouwrQbl

Keeper's chicks from a Black Copper Marans
https://imgur.com/1YXiXGJ
https://imgur.com/DNgMaaO

Keeper's son that a friend owns
https://imgur.com/o6L3r9r
https://imgur.com/PuHboPA
Keeper's daughter that a friend owns
https://imgur.com/HivxsmN

Keeper/BCM bred to a Brown Leghorn produced these
[img]https://imgur.com/a/DzpEDpR[/img]


So far I've only seen heterozygous chicks. The darker ones are boys and the lighter ones are girls.


Edited by PurpleSully (06/25/18 12:40 PM)

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#117194 - 06/25/18 12:57 PM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
I hope you're able to see the links in my last post as I am very interested to know what you think of my flock's color.

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#117196 - 06/26/18 02:11 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Thank you, I can see the imgur links.

Here's the message I get from the Facebook link, maybe you can work out the problem from it:

Facebook message:
Quote:
Sorry, this content isn't available at the moment
The link you followed may have expired, or the Page may only be visible to an audience that you aren't in.

Is it a closed group page? I do know that direct links to Facebook individual images sometimes disappear after a while, don't seem to be permanent (the links anyway).

I'm not sure why your imgur images are not posting here. Maybe you can work it out from this post (on step by step process)?:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116856#Post116856

--------------------
Quite strange. I see a lot of similarities with sex-linked spotties, but more colour with yours. They seem in between spotties and extreme dilutes. Although it's hard to know with the extreme dilutes as only one closeup photo in the 2017 paper, this a het/hemi and appears still young (or a pullet), so don't know if it would have changed a lot when an adult.

Link to 2017 paper photos (extreme dilute = B0):
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006665.g001

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#117197 - 06/26/18 05:33 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
These links were copied using the instructions you shared. Thank you so much for being patient with me while I learn how to use the forum settings.

~~~~~
'Keeper' X Black Copper Marans





~~~~~
'Keeper' X Black Ameraucana (carrying mottle)





~~~~~
'Keeper' X ? ... my friend's pullet
[img]https://i.imgur.com/HivxsmN.png[/img]
'Keeper' X ? ... my friend's cockerel
[img]https://i.imgur.com/o6L3r9r.png[/img][img]https://i.imgur.com/PuHboPA.png[/img]
~~~~~
Keeper/Marans X Brown Leghorn (e+)
[img]https://i.imgur.com/gF1qqDW.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/huBxM7P.png[/img]
These chicks are from the same pairing.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/lYM3uDk.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/sGd0Q4X.png[/img]
~~~~~
Keeper/Marans X Plymouth Barred Rock - center has the gene. Notice the skin color on the necks, legs, and the beak color.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/4svOLAF.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/4kLHbTc.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/e4rEpXI.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/xmttOs1.png[/img]
~~~~~
Tolbunt (ER based gold laced with mottle) X Keeper/Ameraucana
*chick on the left in the first picture is Tolbunt X Gold laced Polish*
[img]https://i.imgur.com/C7Oo4B1.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/VF6CDKM.png[/img]








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#117198 - 06/26/18 05:45 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
~~~~~
'Keeper' X ? ... my friend's pullet

'Keeper' X ? ... my friend's cockerel

~~~~~
Keeper/Marans X Brown Leghorn (e+)


These chicks are from the same pairing.


~~~~~
Keeper/Marans X Plymouth Barred Rock - center has the gene. Notice the skin color on the necks, legs, and the beak color.



[img]https://i.imgur.com/xmttOs1.png[/img]
~~~~~
Tolbunt (ER based gold laced with mottle) X Keeper/Ameraucana
*chick on the left in the first picture is Tolbunt X Gold laced Polish*
[img]https://i.imgur.com/C7Oo4B1.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/VF6CDKM.png[/img]

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#117199 - 06/26/18 05:46 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States

~~~~~
Tolbunt (ER based gold laced with mottle) X Keeper/Ameraucana
*chick on the left in the first picture is Tolbunt X Gold laced Polish*


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#117200 - 06/26/18 06:08 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Not all pictures showed up in the first post, so I put them in subsequent posts.

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#117201 - 06/26/18 08:22 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: KazJaps

--------------------
Quite strange. I see a lot of similarities with sex-linked spotties, but more colour with yours. They seem in between spotties and extreme dilutes. Although it's hard to know with the extreme dilutes as only one closeup photo in the 2017 paper, this a het/hemi and appears still young (or a pullet), so don't know if it would have changed a lot when an adult.

Link to 2017 paper photos (extreme dilute = B0):
http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006665.g001



My friend who owns the original rooster (called "Keeper") and a couple people (including myself) who got offspring from Keeper are perplexed. Keeper is thought to be dominant wheaten and wild type. He is marked like the spotted cockerel that my friend has. Half the Keeper's chicks hatch with 'regular' coloring, but the other half have a light patch on the back and either develop the appearance of a spotty chicken, or of dilution barring.

Some one told me that Spotty is sexlinked recessive and that females cannot show the gene. I am doubtful of that though, after looking through your thread. I wonder... is it possible that the original rooster has both spotty and dilution barring?

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#117202 - 06/26/18 08:27 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
I wish those links showed mature B-0 barred birds. As light as my heterozygous and hemizygous chickens are, I don't think they're B^sd.

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#117204 - 06/28/18 02:44 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Thank you, the photos are good.

Note, there is a limit to the number of photos allowed in a single post, this possibly the problem you had. Eg, looks like 10 is the limit:
1: 2. 3.4.
5. 6.7. 8.
9. 10.
11. [img]http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/...zps2b2393e3.jpg[/img]
12. [img]http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/...zps2b2393e3.jpg[/img]
13.[img]http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu37/...zps2b2393e3.jpg[/img]

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#117205 - 06/28/18 03:16 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
For comparison, my sex-linked spotty e+ (buffish heads) and ER (or E) (greyish heads) chicks:


So I take your ones with 1 dose of B0(?) extreme dilution mutation, when on a e+ or similar mixed coloured chick down, are not diluted much as day olds (ie when not E or ER black down base, have some phaeomelanin)?

And I wonder about your friends rooster here, is it possible he has one dose of new mutation, and one dose of barring?

eg, could he be from keeper X B barred or crele hen?

This phenotype is similar to my spotty/barred heterozygous roosters (although mine less pronounced barring in the spots).

Mine take a long time to express the barring when young, although this cockerel developed more spots as an adult.

Note - with crossing this spotty/barred rooster with spotty or barred (e+ B/- crele) hens, I've only segregated spotty or barred daughters, no b+. I mostly produced homozygous spotty sons (solid white), although 3 are heterozygote spotties, of which one obvious spotty/barred, but the other 2 too hard to tell at this age whether B or b+.


Edited by KazJaps (06/28/18 03:23 AM)
Edit Reason: added last paragraph

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#117206 - 06/28/18 03:39 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
I don't know if Keeper is B0 - extreme dilution (because the paper doesn't show a clear example of B0 adults)

I take it Keeper has only produced these extreme dilution phenotypes similar to him - or b+ wild-type (black, BBRed, wheaten, etc). Ie he hasn't produced barred /crele adult daughters, nor any obvious B^Sd adults of all grey bars?

If not any barred daughters or B^Sd grey barred adults (both genders), I think you can be safe in saying he has B0 extreme dilution or another new B locus allele. Although I don't think he has sex-linked spotty mutation, as spotties are more diluted in ER hens, e+ chicks, and het. spotty males have cleaner white base and only spots, not large patches of colour.

Mind you, I like your B0 E or ER hens much more than spotties. Very pretty.

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#117207 - 06/28/18 03:49 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
The next step is breeding a homozygous rooster, put him to one of his extreme dilute daughters. It will be interesting to see if you get solid white homozygotes like the spotties.

One thing about homozygote spotties, if you want a clean white plumage rooster with white or yellow legs, it's a huge cheat - doesn't matter what all the other colour/pattern genes are (ie dilutes everything - phaeomelanin and eumelanin, epidermal and id+ dermal pigments). Can't think of a gene like it (beats I dominant white, c recessive white -leg colour). Would be very useful in white broiler lines.

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#117208 - 06/28/18 06:20 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Thank you for all of your thoughts! I'll try to answer everything...

The cockerel with the barring on the non-white feathers had a few feather stubs as a chick so the mother is the cuckoo cochin mix. So, yes he is also hetero for barring. Shortly after he was hatched, Keeper's owner sold all of her barred hens and hatched over 100 chicks from Keeper. None of the non-diluted chicks showed barring, so I'm confident that Keeper is not barred.

My Keeper/Black Copper Marans crossed cockerel is the father of the chicks I hatched from e+/e+ brown leghorn hens. So far two are ER/- with dilution and two are eWh/e+ without dilution. I have more eggs in the incubator now so hopefully I'll be able to update with pictures of the eWh/e+ chicks with dilution in three weeks.

The chicks from my Tolbunt Polish rooster over the E/- hen with dilution had a similar read head, but that could be from the Db gene.

I don't know if Keeper's owner plans to breed daughters to him, but I have a couple eggs from my two Keeper/Marans birds being penned together. The weather has been unseasonably hot here, so egg production dropped and I was only able to gather 4 eggs from the pairing in the last week.

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#117209 - 06/28/18 06:26 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
These are from my Keeper/Marans birds... They look like light blue cuckoo, but non of the non-diluted chicks grew up to have blue from the 100+ chicks that hatched from Keeper. My friends and I are confident that he does not have Blue for this reason.


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#117210 - 06/28/18 06:36 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
No, none of his diluted pullet offspring have actually looked like the pictures of B^sd I've seen online.

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#117211 - 06/28/18 07:12 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
This is a son of Keeper. His mother is a Speckled Sussex/Red Sexlink hen.

It's interesting how Mahogany counteracts the dilution that happened on the pullet with red spots that I previously posted. When the pullet was this age she she was more of a buff cuckoo color.


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#117212 - 06/28/18 07:13 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Looking more closely at the link that compares the B^sd (B2) and the B0 alleles, I'm leaning toward thinking that these birds are B0.

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#117213 - 07/01/18 12:41 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: PurpleSully]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: PurpleSully
....and two are eWh/e+ without dilution.

Originally Posted By: PurpleSully
This is a son of Keeper. His mother is a Speckled Sussex/Red Sexlink hen.

It's interesting how Mahogany counteracts the dilution that happened on the pullet with red spots that I previously posted. When the pullet was this age she she was more of a buff cuckoo color.

Ok, so you haven't segregated a e+ extreme dilute chick as yet. Was the pullet with red spots a wheaten based chick (cream or buff)?

Lanae mentioned that her Araucanas were wheaten based. I do remember years ago on a chickens eGroup a photo of Araucana or Ameraucana rooster similar to spotties (I think named Harlequin?).

Back to my Aust. Pit Game spotty thread, the following posts explains how you can test breed to see if an allele of the B locus:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116132#Post116132

But first you need to have a test rooster homozygous for the extreme dilute allele (to put with a B barred hen), or rooster known heterozygous with both extreme dilute and B barred.
Eg, I'll give the temporary symbol B^Ed = extreme dilute.
Need to have B^Ed/B^Ed or B^Ed/B. Could use B^Sd, but B easier to see. Need to be certain that the rooster doesn't have b+.

With B^Ed/B rooster, what you are trying to see is if any b+ daughters segregate. If there are any b+ daughters, you know B^Ed is not an allele of the B locus. Plus no sons should be homozygous b+/b+ without extreme dilute or barring. And if you put him to b+/- hens, no sons should be B^Ed/B.

With my B^Sp/B spotty/barred rooster, I used spotty or barred (crele) hens to him, but wild-type b+/- hens would have been ok, although the sons couldn't be used again in B locus test.

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#117214 - 07/01/18 01:14 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
And the 2017 B alleles paper thread:
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=116614#Post116614

There are 4 mutations that occurred, 2 on B0 allele, 3 on B1 allele, 3 on B2 allele.
- B0 - extreme dilution (2 non coding mutations (SNP1 & SNP2))
- B1 - barring (2 non coding mutations + V9D substitution (SNP1, SNP2 & SNP3))
- B2 - dilution (2 non coding mutations + R10C substitution (SNP1, SNP2 & SNP4)).

In short, the extreme dilute allele occurred first with 2 mutations, this causing less function of the CDKN2A (b+) gene. Then a mutation occurred on the extreme dilute allele, increasing the function of the gene & producing the barring phenotype. Also another mutation occurred on the extreme dilute allele, partially increasing the function of the gene, producing the B^Sd sex linked dilution phenotype.

Explained more in the following article:
https://m.phys.org/news/2017-04-reveals-chickens-striped-feathers.html

---------------------
So your Naked Neck extreme dilute allele would be interesting to DNA test and see if the same as the 2017 paper B0 allele sequence.
Would be very interesting to DNA test & compare the spotty allele, see if it shares any mutations to B0, or whether completely different.

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#117215 - 07/01/18 01:23 AM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Also in the previous B allele research papers, they noted that Norwegian Jaerhons were found with B^Sd.

A link to Jaerhons at Feathersite. Multiple varieties & phenotypes, some roosters appear B^Sd/B^Sd, but no roosters with spots, nor any hens like the dilute Naked Necks or spotties.
https://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGD/Jaer/BRKJaerhone.html

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#117217 - 07/01/18 03:20 PM Re: Are my chickens "Spotty"? as in Spotty Game Bird [Re: KazJaps]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Wow, I'm going to have to read that several times to soak it all in.

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