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#117216 - 07/01/18 03:14 PM Mottle?? Something else???
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Bantam White crested Polish from White Crested Black, WC Dun, WC Blue parents. Mottle is thought to be carried by at least one of the parents in the flock he is out of. Is this cockerel mottled? The markings don't look like any mottle I'm familiar with.










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#117218 - 07/03/18 05:23 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Does anyone have a suggestion?

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#117219 - 07/03/18 10:00 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: PurpleSully]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
Maybe this posting about the pied breed Pita Pinta Asturiana and the following discussion could be interesting for You?
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=115030#Post115030
_________________________

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#117220 - 07/04/18 05:17 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: Redcap]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Thank you!

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#117222 - 07/04/18 06:25 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: PurpleSully]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Here is the progression of his color development.

As a day old (chick on the lower right)


Seven weeks, no white.


eleven weeks, no white


12 or 13 weeks, first sign of white in his hackles


16 weeks


17 weeks (for details of feathers, see original post above)




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#117223 - 07/04/18 11:08 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: PurpleSully]
dingsda Offline
Bantam

Registered: 09/07/14
Posts: 68
Loc: Germany
the only feather color with black at both feather ends and white in the middle part I recall is silver spangled. Maybe this is a very dark, incomplete version of it, since the genes that lead to silver spangled are flowing around in the polish gene pool, as far as I know.

http://www.kippenencyclopedie.nl/php/index.php?title=Zilverzwartgeloverd


Edited by dingsda (07/04/18 11:10 AM)

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#117224 - 07/04/18 12:58 PM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: dingsda]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
So... you're thinking my cockerel is poorly marked spangle then? I don't understand where it would have come from because the parents have no white on them. Not saying you're wrong, just trying to figure out how. How would that account for his white tipped feathers? Could he be poorly spangled and mottle?

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#117225 - 07/05/18 05:27 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: PurpleSully]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Look up Smyth's DAM line, delayed amelanosis (vitiligo).
Not only is he losing plumage pigment, he has very pale leg colour, unusual for a Polish that should have both dermal and epidermal pigments (id+ ER).

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#117226 - 07/05/18 05:49 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia

Commentary: Vitiligo – Lessons learned from the Smyth line chicken (2007)
Gisela F. Erf, Ph.D., Professor.
pdf, link using archive dot org
* photos of Smyth’s eb Brown line & DAM (delayed amelanosis) line

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#117227 - 07/05/18 06:19 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Some more photos of Smyth's DAM line, changes from chicks to adults:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/tili..._fig3_268690314

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#117228 - 07/06/18 08:29 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 985
Loc: Germany
Are the legs only pale or mottled like in Pita Pinta Asturiana or Orust Chickens?
http://www.lapitapintaasturiana.com/site...d82a8ff3fc02c2f
https://greenfirefarms.com/images/product/orust-152.jpg
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#117229 - 07/06/18 04:15 PM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
I don't know if the Exchequer / pied variant of mottled locus allele (if a separate allele to mo, ie if mo^pi) removes id+. Exchequer Leghorn's have Id, and Black Leghorns are bred for clean yellow legs, therefore have separate modifiers that remove epidermal pigment (eg, Ie, inhibitor of epidermal pigment, this also bleaching undercolour, etc when homozygous in males).
The thing is that there are various mottled breeds and mo/mo varieties with id+ that have blue/slate legs (including tri-colours Millefleur etc not E or ER based).

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#117230 - 07/06/18 04:36 PM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
There are various unknown modifiers that bleach plumage (often in undercolour, base of male's tail, in wing flights, neck hackles, etc). Often seen as a flaw in exhibition breeds, but sometimes seen in gamefowl, eg Whitehackle Game strain (usually wheaten based). Also in pullet bred yellow legged black lines (eg, Ie epidermal inhibitors), probably in Exchequer lines, and in mottled lines with excess white.

White tipped spots on tail & cushion and white in mid wing flights is a common trait in my E (or ER) Australian Pit Games, even though all are Mo+/Mo+ based. What is more unusual in these is that it is more common in hens.

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#117231 - 07/06/18 04:42 PM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
There are also some Australian black OEG lines that develop vitiligo like phenotypes. The difference with these is that they start out very black, in plumage, legs, beaks and eyes, until older juveniles or young adults. The bleaching increases with age, similar to Smyth's DAM line.

Edit: - looked up BYP thread (http://forum.backyardpoultry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7967112) on one of these black OEG lines. Noticed that white feathers/skin bleaching may start in older juveniles (eg from 3 or 4 months old? - my estimate). Although day old and young chickens start very black.

Unfortunately the images aren't showing in BYP posts, but luckily I managed to save them (10 years ago).
Here's a black pullet with early stages of vitiligo:


Here's a black hen with late stages of vitiligo:

*Notice it bleaches legs, beak, gypsy face/comb too.
It also modifies eye colour:



Edited by KazJaps (07/06/18 06:46 PM)
Edit Reason: added last paragraph

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#117232 - 07/06/18 07:07 PM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
The following USA cuckoo hen was previously posted here at The Coop. I think it was just the one bird in the flock. It started cuckoo, like all the rest, but gradually lost pigmentation.
Ie, early on:



Later stages:


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#117233 - 07/07/18 09:30 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3824
Loc: Denmark
I had 3 birds with vitiligo, but all 3 started developing discolorations as adults ( at least AFTER the first adult molting).
It did NOT resemble mottling in that the WHOLE feathers were white on otherwise non-mottled birds.
At least one of those birds died by itself the same year it began developing vitiligo, but I do not know whether these 2 things had anything to do with each other


Edited by Wieslaw (07/07/18 10:17 AM)
Edit Reason: added last sentence

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#117234 - 07/08/18 01:23 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Looking through old photos I've noticed various birds with white tips, usually temporary phenotypes.

Not sure the reasoning I gave for the following white spots in this e+/e+ BBRed MGB cockerel, but it was temporary as a young adult (later all moulted out), not expressed in juvenile plumage, & not in any siblings. It was probably due to environmental factors (maybe heat stress? or similar).



*Note, he is from a long established (many decades not outcrossed) e+/e+ BBRed MGB line, with no chance of mo mottled gene in there.


Edited by KazJaps (07/08/18 01:25 AM)
Edit Reason: added last paragraph

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#117235 - 07/08/18 01:46 AM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
The following juvenile bleaching was a common trait in these i+/i+ segregates from a e+/e+ I/i+ Pile MGB line (these unrelated to previous post).

Eg, e+/e+ i+/i+ pullet (noticed similar phenotype in another pullet hatched 9 months later, so probably not weather related):

Same pullet, just some white tips left, & some white in wing flights (when wing spread):


------------------

e+/e+ i+/i+ cockerels had less white in flights when young:


But this one had remnant white for quite a while:



Another one lost most the juvenile white bleaching, but so dull greyish-charcoal instead of black, I had mistaken these for Bl/bl+ blues when young. All were actually bl+/bl+, just some sort of selection going on I imagine, to produce clean I/i+ white in the Piles.

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#117269 - 08/22/18 03:18 PM Re: Mottle?? Something else??? [Re: KazJaps]
PurpleSully Offline
Feather

Registered: 04/19/18
Posts: 24
Loc: United States
Thank you for all the examples! Since the last set of pictures I posted he has stopped growing any new white. ALL of the new feathers have been black from tip to follicle.

RedCap, he has some mottle type coloring on his legs and feet, but not as distinct as the Pita Pinta Asturiana or Orust Chickens. The front of his legs are black while the backs of his legs are mottled with black spots on slate.

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