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#117237 - 07/15/18 03:20 PM Unreliable Db? Another allele?
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3813
Loc: Denmark
I have crossed two birds that came from outside of my own gene pool.
The cock is what goes as Cream Legbar in Denmark , and the hen is Pavlovskaya(looking basically as gold spangled Hamburg)
.
Out of 8 chicks NONE hatched brown as I expected, but ordinary black B/b+ with a small brown area just above the eyes.

In the past Db from my own gene pool worked very fine on blacks, giving brown chicks with a white dot on the head when barred.

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#117239 - 07/16/18 03:10 AM Re: Unreliable Db? Another allele? [Re: Wieslaw]
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2864
Loc: Australia
Do you know what the pure line Pavlovskaya chicks look like? On Feathersite and Greenfire, the day olds are brown-faced black. But then the adults vary a lot, some very heavily melanised, to spangled tips, but mostly heavily melanised poor lacing.

As Greenfire's crossbreeding of Gold-laced X Jubilee Orpingtons indicates (plus these Gold Laced and Silver Laced Orps having being DNA tested as E/E db+/db+), there are alternate ways to produce eumelanin restriction on E or ER. These Gold Laced Orps had similar brown-faced black chick downs, but the F1 (to wheaten based Jubilees) produced black chicks, partial eumelanin restriction in adults (including females).

One would expect a crested breed with similar traits to early laced/spangled Polish to have Pg-Ml-Db, but what was crossed into the Pavlovs to save them from extinction?

There are Serebrovsky's papers & research that you could look up. I had a quick look at the 120 year anniversary paper (Moiseyeva et al. 2012). They have Spangled Pavlovs as E/E Pg-Ml-Db, but I imagine this is an educated guess. I didn't look into what F1 chicks looked like.

Also, was the feather legs recessive or dominant? Would be great to have conformation on this being recessive in the Pavlovs.

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#117240 - 07/19/18 11:17 AM Re: Unreliable Db? Another allele? [Re: KazJaps]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3813
Loc: Denmark
My hen is by no means SQ. I got some free eggs while buying something else, and 2 hatched(they were not identical). Cockerel died quickly (the man I got eggs from had problems with vertically transmitted pullorosis! which I have not seen in decades). The pullet had very black feathers to start with, eventually growing up to be spangled (real spangles) on the breast and most of the back. Only in the middle section on the back there is some suggestion of slight lace and also on some feathers covering the wings. The tail has no spangles (dirty blackish). There is also a slight lace on the vulture hocks (which are unwanted) and the legs are feathered on the outside only. It took forever for her to lay eggs(at least 3-4 months after the Cream Legbars) but the eggs were big (for her small size) from the start, bigger than the legbars'. The crest is too wide obstructing the vision if uncut, black. Was very jumpy when she was a chick when compared to other chicks.

Her chicks with a Cream Legbar cock are now ca. 3 weeks old, some have feathers on the outside of the shank and outer toe, some have clean legs and some have feathers on the lowest part of the shank plus the outer toe, so at the moment she looks like she is heterozygous for dominant leg feathering.

There was a Russian guy who wrote an article about them on the Polish forum. They want them to have short feathers all around the shanks to look like on a capercaillie(which according to an old legend was supposed to be involved in the beginning).

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#117241 - 07/19/18 02:16 PM Re: Unreliable Db? Another allele? [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3813
Loc: Denmark
I'd like to add, that there are no water drop shaped spangles like on the breasts of some Hamburgs. All the spangles are " cut off " evenly (more or less).
Apart from her small size and feathered legs, I cannot see the big difference between her and Brabanters or Appenzellers.


Edited by Wieslaw (07/19/18 02:43 PM)
Edit Reason: added last sentence

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#117253 - 08/05/18 05:46 AM Re: Unreliable Db? Another allele? [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
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Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3813
Loc: Denmark
I have made a few chicks from this hen with another e+/e+ cock and there is much more dark brown down and dark brown feathers(as it "should" be). So it was something from the cream legbar cock that was responsible for the lack of the dark brown discoloration(a gold diluter??). It can't be B, because I previously had barred chicks with Db who had brown chick down.

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