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#18477 - 06/04/03 07:47 PM Re: cull by neck pulling?
BC Breeder Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 434
Loc: Canada
I fail to see why people can't voice differing points of view without having someone's credentials crammed down their throats. Posts should be judged by their contents, not the resume of the person leaving the post. This is a community wide discussion forum, not an interactive book written by a few elite. There isn't a single person here who's opinions aren't open for challange. If anyone feels differently, they are probably here for the wrong reasons, IMO.

That said;

Unless one is talking maceration, I've never bought the suggestions of "instant death" when it is used to describe methods such as cervical dislocation, head removal, gasing, or CO2 suffocation. None of them are instant and each one probably has some degree of suffering associated with it. Nobody can describe any of the methods from first hand experience, therefore nobody can say for sure which cause less suffering than which. All anyone can do is guess, maybe make an educated guess, but it's still a guess nonetheless. But if it makes anyone feel any better, nature doesn't give a damn about suffer free deaths, any animal eaten by another suffers. And much more than animals subjected to any of the methods discussed here. Poultry evolved to suffer brutal deaths.

Therefore, the concept of humane killing is a concept to satisfy the needs of us humans, not the animals. It is a concept made to ease the conscience of the human taking the life, and therefore any method that accomplishes this is an effective method. Institutions adopt methods that are easiest on the employees, not those being killed. If concern for the animal's suffering really honestly was more important to us than our own emotions, someone would have brought up maceration by now, an honest and true way of ensuring instant death wink But ground pet would be hard for most of us to stomache, wouldn't it?

I don't have a preference between the humane-ness of the cervical dislocation methods and gasing methods, I feel a quality argument could be made for either, as there have been here. As long as we each choose a method that allows us to do what needs to be done, that is all that really matters, IMO.

Personally, after a bit of fumbling with an axe (keep clossing my eyes and not striking true) I started using a sharp machete I had laying around. I find it cuts cleaner and being lighter, is easier to ensure an accurate strike.

I'm sure debraining would cause less suffering if done properly, but I still haven't been able to bring myself to doing it. The idea of practicing and doing it wrong, thus causing even more suffering, is holding me back. As simple as it sounds, I want to learn it from someone experienced so as to make sure I get it right the first time and don't cause needless suffering. In the meantime, the machete is getting the job done.
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#18478 - 06/04/03 09:18 PM Re: cull by neck pulling?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BC Breeder:
I fail to see why people can't voice differing points of view without having someone's credentials crammed down their throats. Posts should be judged by their contents, not the resume of the person leaving the post. This is a community wide discussion forum, not an interactive book written by a few elite. There isn't a single person here who's opinions aren't open for challange. If anyone feels differently, they are probably here for the wrong reasons, IMO.

In the spirit of your post.....

I was merely explaining WHY I DID WHAT I DID... nothing else.

But I for one am certainly happy to have people of Dr. Okimoto's credibility on this forum. They give a great deal.

And I have to admit my post seems to have strayed quite a bit from the original intent... helping "raceacres" find a humane way to kill her pet hen.. whom I think is still alive and doing better... ???

So oh well whatever.. ignore the woman behind the curtain.. move along folks, move along laugh

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#18479 - 06/04/03 09:21 PM Re: cull by neck pulling?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Good reply BC. Maceration maybe the closest method to causing instant death, but talk about a gory death. I mean, if you were going to assist in a suicide for a suffering family member, would you grind them up? I thought not.

I am just a CO2 killer. That is the method I choose, and I do push for that method to be practiced as as far I know it is extremely peaceful and humane. Purhaps someday someone will measure brain activity during CO2 suffication and discover that is is extremely painful. Until then, I continue to use it.

As for chopping the head off, well I know for a fact that snakes and a few other reptiles can live for hours (their head not the body) after being decapitated. For that reason, I am against it.

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#18480 - 06/04/03 09:25 PM Re: cull by neck pulling?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Okay... Jason's and psychedelic egg fairy's post have put me right off the ax. Ekk!! :p

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#18481 - 06/05/03 08:20 AM Re: cull by neck pulling?
BC Breeder Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 434
Loc: Canada
>>>>>>But I for one am certainly happy to have people of Dr. Okimoto's credibility on this forum.

as am I, I can't think of another member who's posts I find more enlightening on a day to day basis. However, when one of his ideas are beeing challanged, I find it to be much more educational for his ideas to be substantiated with more than a list of credentials. And Ron, I sure hope you are not taking this personally, this and the prior post are not in response to any of your input, just in how your position has been defended by others.

Henny, I find that people have a tendency to get emotionally attatched to their online opinions, often interferring with their ability to handle challanging opinions objectively. It was your decision that was being challanged, NOT you personally. Forums such as this can't achieve their true full power unless differing opinions are allowed to fully challange each other and dig to to a deeper level. When this happens we all win by gaining a deeper level of understanding of the topic at hand. Playing politics (protecting a friend's opinion) or getting overly protective of our positions can only serve to diminish this potential. Hope you understand.

>>>>>>> Maceration maybe the closest method to causing instant death, but talk about a gory death. I mean, if you were going to assist in a suicide for a suffering family member, would you grind them up? I thought not.

which is my point I think, that we are discussing this for OUR benefit, to satisfy OUR needs and not really the animal's wink Therefore, choosing a method that works on an individual level is what really matters.

>>>>>>>>> That is the method I choose, and I do push for that method to be practiced as as far I know it is extremely peaceful and humane.

ahhh, I totally agree with your right to choose a method that appeals most to you and even your reasons for choosing it. But to push the method onto others? I'm sorry, but do you honestly feel you are enough of an expert on the topic to do such a thing? Using the reslts of a test on cold blooded animals to make decisions about chickens doesn't make any sense, IMO. That is like me telling you that since apple peels are edible, orange peels are also good to eat. It's basically a conclusion founded on faulty logic, IMO.

>>>>>Purhaps someday someone will measure brain activity during CO2 suffication and discover that is is extremely painful.

hopefully they can do it for all the various methods of euthanasia, then we could make choices based upon more than emotional guesswork. And maybe even make choices that satisfies the animal's needs as much as our own. Until then, we can share our methods and the reasons we choose those methods, but we must also respect the choices of those who choose different ones for different reasons. We simply don't know enough to know which is best for the animal.
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#18482 - 06/05/03 08:20 AM Re: cull by neck pulling?
BC Breeder Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 434
Loc: Canada
Back to your CO2 choice: I like it best of all the gas choices since it is the cleanest for the environment. One of the reasons I got back into chickens is that I want a healthier lifestyle. This means to me, healtheir food and creating a healthier environement around me. Going to the auto store to buy ether, therefore consuming the fossil fuels and packaging that went into getting the ether to our farms, seems like a pretty high envionmental price tag to pay, just to ease some superficial human need. While CO2 itself is much cleaner than ether, getting it to our farms each time we need it isn't so clean. There is the cost of making it, storing it, and transporting it. We north americans are addicted to magic chemicals satisfying our needs. When making such choices, I often ask myself which is more important, my needs, an individual chicken's needs, or the environment's needs? And which suffers most by each choice?
_________________________
Omega Blue Farms
http://www3.telus.net/OmegaBlue/

Pictures related to my blue eggers can be viewed at:
http://groups.msn.com/BCsBlueEggers

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#18483 - 06/05/03 10:22 AM Re: cull by neck pulling?
Kaalnek Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 415
Loc: California
I don't do simple decapitations for the very reason I looked closely at heads right after they were decapitated.

Many defnitely showed signs of life or movements for a while afterward.. blinking, making what looks like gasping movements, and some even made movements like they were trying to yell. That completely turned me off to butchering my own birds for decades. I know I am not the only one who noticed this. I can't believe anyone who insists it being 'quick and painless'. But, like BC pointed out, I do realize it is amongst the easiest and quickest ways for humans to handle it- I am not against this method, just won't practice this one myself.

Thanks for the dry ice idea, Okimoto. This will be useful for a lot of people, particularly those with non-poultry birds or poultry 'pets'.

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#18484 - 06/05/03 10:43 AM Re: cull by neck pulling?
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
My main concern when advising about a method of euthanazia is the safety of the people doing it. Carbon dioxide could hurt you if you forget to roll down your windows and you have an hour or so drive home with a bunch of dry ice in your car, but you breath carbon dioxide every day and it is a normal waste product of just breathing.

It only becomes dangerous if the levels of carbon dioxide exceed a certain level. Those people that have seen the movie Apollo 13 should get this idea. They had plenty of oxygen, but their carbon dioxide scrubers were not adequate to remove the carbon dioxide. If the levels built up too high they would die just like your chicken does even if they had all the oxygen they needed.

Making dry ice is energy intensive. You have to cool carbon dioxide to below -70 degrees C to freeze it. I bet that quite alot or most of the dry ice that is made sublimates before anyone can use it for anything.

I doubt that you are going to find an expert on killing things, and I don't know if I'd want to know such a person. The best that you can do is find out what you can, and weigh the various aspects and do what you think is best. This works for just about anything discussed on this board. As BC breeder states the fastest means to killing an animal is to destroy its brain. Mashing it into paste is the fastest way to relieve the animal of any pain or worry. The body may live on, but it doesn't matter because the animal is nolonger aware of anything.

When I took High School biology we had to pith frogs. You stuck a dissecting needle into their head from the back of the neck and scrambled their brains. There were three of us young fellows at our lab bench and we had some discussion as to who was going to do this deed, and I only got stuck with it because I had read the procedure before class and understood it. I don't think that you will find too many people that are willing to kill an animal in this way, and yet it is probably one of the most humane methods because as soon as you destroy enough of the brain to stop it from functioning the animal can no longer sense its surroundings or the condition of its body. It essentially no longer exists. Biology classes no longer use this method for the simple reason that we had frogs jumping around the class with dissecting needles stuck in their head that had been improperly pithed. If you don't do it right it is one big fiasco.

What someone needs to invent for the small producer is a contraption that smashes the head into pulp at the same time that it cuts the head off.

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#18485 - 06/05/03 11:00 AM Re: cull by neck pulling?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by BC Breeder:
[QBHenny, I find that people have a tendency to get emotionally attatched to their online opinions, often interferring with their ability to handle challanging opinions objectively. It was your decision that was being challanged, NOT you personally. Forums such as this can't achieve their true full power unless differing opinions are allowed to fully challange each other and dig to to a deeper level. When this happens we all win by gaining a deeper level of understanding of the topic at hand. Playing politics (protecting a friend's opinion) or getting overly protective of our positions can only serve to diminish this potential. Hope you understand.

[/QB]
BC,

Everyone has had their say and noone has been denied their opinion, as you have so clearly evidenced. Many have spoken. This topic is getting quite long. Also... forgive me but I simply did not feel personally attacked as you assume????

The CO2 method was discussed, I decided to try it, I reported my findings, my finding were challenged by those who have not tried it and untruths were presented. When people say things like "slowly suffocating" and " slow suffocation " I do feel I have the right to defend my position on this killing method with my justification for using it in the first place.

My justification was.. since Dr. Okimoto is a learned poultry professional(which I proved using his creditials), his humane method should be sound. My further post-justification arguement was that I then tried Dr.'s method(which I also proved with my account of what happened) and to my satistfaction was able to prove the above quotations wrong (which again I proved).

I have no problem with others challenging my ideas but to do so with very little knowledge of the procedure (which is evidenced by the above quotations) is misleading to those who might wish to try this method of humane killing for pet birds. I have every right to set the matter straight just as they had every right to challenge it in the first place.

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#18486 - 06/05/03 11:25 AM Re: cull by neck pulling?
Anonymous
Unregistered


For those who have not used dry ice and would like to.... safe handeling of Dry Ice is very important. Here are some rules we were given when we bought it from a company specilizing in Dry Ice:

~Dry Ice is extremely cold (-109 degrees F OR -78.5 degrees C)
~Avoid contact with skin, may cause cold burns, wear protective gloves with leather palms when touching dry ice
~Do not enter areas where Dry Ice is stored or used if proper ventialtion is not available
~Do not seal in glass, plastic or other closed container (hence use an almost air tight box)
~Do not eat or put into drinks
~And OF COURSE.. Keep out of reach of children

We were instructed by the salesman to keep our car windows cracked while driving with it. It survived our car ride well in a our cooler, the prefered method of transport. They packed it for us in a protective brown paper which makes handling it easier. We bought 30 lbs because hubbie wanted to play with some and do some science experiments with the neighborhood kids. Dry Ice is a very neat chemical. laugh

For some more info on Dry Ice go to this site:
http://www.dryiceinfo.com/

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