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#22174 - 10/04/08 01:26 PM Lemon Hackles / Recessive White etc
Choc Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 489
Loc: England
Hi folks.
I have been lucky enough to lay my hands on a British exhibition male partridge wyandotte line. I was also fortunate to be given a white sport from this line (c/c).

I should now be able to reasonably quantify how the lemon hackle genes work. Carefoot's findings were that a single dose of the recessive white gene in a closed exhibition line of partridge wyanodttes, was enough to produce the lemon hackled effect. I don't doubt this, but I, as well as others here have made crosses with partridge / Black Red to recessive white birds and expected lemon hackled offspring. The results have been quite different, and I found it works about 50% of the time. Others have reported no lemon hackles in such crosses. Another factor is that some breeders of partridge males in the UK report consistent 25% all white and 25% orange hackled birds as well as the 50% lemon hackled birds emerging, whereas some breeders have had the same lines for over 30 years and claim that the lemon effect breeds true, without a single white sport.

Something seemed amiss to me - and after studying the red pigment in many partridge males - it would appear there is great differences that would not be observed by the untrained eye. Some shoulders of partridge males are "robin's breast" orange, and the tone darkens by several shades in respective males , to a distinct and clear "cherry red".

I believe that a single dose of the recessive white gene would only be truly effective and produce British Standard exhibition partridge males, if the birds in question carried the least possible amount of pheomelanin i.e. no Mahogany, no Ap, or whatever you want to call these red intensifying genes. Could these intensifying genes be surpressing the single dose of recessive white in some cases, and that being the major reason why some breeders fail to produce lemon hackled offspring when crossing some form of BBR to recessive white?

Obviously this is all "stab in the dark" stuff at present, but the crosses I have planned should give me some info - my first cross is the c/c male over eb pg+ females (Gold Halsige). If all the offspring are lemon hackled then I will be partially convinced of the theory of recessive white and lemon hackles. However, others could argue that the Gold Halsige carry more than the minimum amount of pheomelanin which may surpress the lemon. One thing I observed a few years back is that Aussie exhibition partridge males have darker shoulders than the Britich "robins breast" orange, but the lemon hackles were very similar. Could the difference be dilute allowing the lemon to penetrate? Something is causing the difference and hopefully I will have some results to report soon - It's been bugging me for years and now hopefully I have the means to get to the bottom of the mystery.

Best wishes, choc cool

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#22175 - 10/05/08 07:10 AM Re: Lemon Hackles / Recessive White etc
Mau Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 650
Loc: United Kingdom
Good, i'm glad you are going to have a play with this and am really looking forward to seeing the results. What a shame so many have wasted the opportunity up to now.

The exact shades of shoulders are going to vary naturally. Look at ant other species where a brown shade is required and there are always small variationas between them - or even the shade of (natural) blondes or redheads in people. Some of the thses small variations a single genes others can involve several and the effect cumulative. So start with good genetic diversity, stir well andd breed selectively because you will be unable to identify all the enhancers. If Mh was around in the partridges you'd know about it, especially in the males. The true identity of Di and the yellow hackle (not igig) i don't think is properly inderstood

It is odd that there are so few breeds - what others are there? - that exhibit yellow hackles.

It is possibly a different allele of recessive white.

Good luck 1) with getting the answer 2) with producing some good partridge males.
_________________________
Mau

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#22176 - 10/05/08 07:53 AM Re: Lemon Hackles / Recessive White etc
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Yes, you should verify the white sports as true recessive white C-locus.

And don't neglect those chocolates!

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#22177 - 10/05/08 01:03 PM Re: Lemon Hackles / Recessive White etc
Choc Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/10/06
Posts: 489
Loc: England
Thanks guys - it means a lot and I'm looking forward to posting the results. This project will be incorporated into the chocolate-partridge project to produce the true "choc-lemons".

I think the recessive white allele has long been established by the breeders of this line, it's more the effect that I'm so fascinated by.

I'm just about realising the extent of the dominance of Id in Id/id+ males. They can appear to be completely yellow legged, but when bred to a yellow legged female, produce daughters with very black leg colour. I suppose that's nothing unexpected, but it's good to know what's going on, and select accordingly.

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#22178 - 10/06/08 12:42 AM Re: Lemon Hackles / Recessive White etc
Mau Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 650
Loc: United Kingdom
Watch out with the chocolates as they seem to be carrying some Mh or odd red enhancing/brightening genes which makes it hard to work out what cholate is really doing to gold.
_________________________
Mau

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#22179 - 10/07/08 12:29 AM Re: Lemon Hackles / Recessive White etc
Mau Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 650
Loc: United Kingdom
Quote:
Something seemed amiss to me - and after studying the red pigment in many partridge males - it would appear there is great differences that would not be observed by the untrained eye. Some shoulders of partridge males are "robin's breast" orange, and the tone darkens by several shades in respective males , to a distinct and clear "cherry red".
Choc, you have got me thinking and looking. I have been looking at mine and comparing. All the males have been selected to come from the light downed chicks, because that's the colour my partridges were in the days when they were very good (but lacking fertility) before i mixed them up. I have studied hard and can see no correlation between the shoulder and the neck hackles. Some hackles fade out to quite light orange others are orange all through but there is no link between that and the light robin breast red and mahogany-dark (but in birds that definitely dont have Mh) shoulders. Though looking through my pictures and comparing like bird with like thought no partridges there is a hackle-lightening factor which I believe is what we commonly see on the blue laced Wyandottes with yellow rather than red hackles. Though I suspect that is different to the partridge problem,

Might we see a link between the shoulder colour on males and the evenness of tone i.e. getting away from the two tone feathers on pullet-breeder females ?
_________________________
Mau

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