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#22523 - 11/20/02 07:04 AM birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
By crossing a black ham male to silver penciled female some nice birchens were produced in the first cross. I think that improvement will come easily. I am trying to figure out how to get straighter barring on the penciled females. The barring on the males is not real good but better than the females. The hens are improving on their backs but the breasts are very curved. I assume the only way to go is time and selection. There arent many good birds of this variety to get other stock from. I also dont understand why the males are so white and the hens so barred. It is autosomal barring isnt it? 1 more thing. If I continue selecting for the clearest birds, can I eventy\ually arrive at an all white bird?

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#22524 - 11/20/02 11:24 AM Re: birchen and silver penciled
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
If you can find birchin you could get the barred pattern in both males and females like Campines. You might also need some other columbian like restrictors to get the autosomal barred pattern on a birchin background.

On the eb background the males are mostly columbian restricted because Db works more on males than females. The autosomal barred pattern is due to Db and Pg combined. Campines seem to have birchin instead of eb and may have Co as well as Db, but I don't know if that is confirmed.

Your black hamburghs may not have birchin. They may look birchin due to the columbian restrictors from the penciled combined with heterozygousity (Eeb). Some all black breeds are based on birchin (black OEG) so it is possible that your black hams may have birchin.

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#22525 - 11/20/02 05:05 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
Thankyou, do you mean, breed the birchen to a penciled. I was thinking the birchen gene was in the penciled hamburg . Im pretty sure it is in the black as now and again, a bird will come with a poor birchen color.

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#22526 - 11/20/02 06:35 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
Penciled Hamburgs are based on eb. If you want to breed standard Hamburgs you should keep the eb allele. If you want to make the males as barred as the females you can introduce the birchin allele, but they will not be standard. They will look like Campines.

To get well barred females you sometimes have to breed males that have too much barring in their plumage. These males aren't show quality because they look dirty. Females that make clean white males are too light. At least, that is what I've heard about Hamburgs.

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#22527 - 11/25/02 05:42 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


I saw some nice birchen Hamburg large fowl at the Ohio national last month. As big as the blacks.

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#22528 - 11/25/02 05:50 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
Hi Pakers. The one stag is now in my pen with some nice blacks. The birchens are 1st X of black cock to silver penciled hen. Did you see the black ham bantams? rob

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#22529 - 11/25/02 06:43 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


Were those your birchens at Columbus?

And no, I don't specifically remember the black bantams. I do remember a golden-spangled won RB hamburg bantam. It had a gold tail; golden-spangled should have black tails. It had most likely been crossed to a silver-spangled, which have white tails.

Apparently silver-spangled have a black-in-the-tail restricter whereas the golden-spangleds are just columbian.

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#22530 - 11/25/02 08:08 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
Don,s partner bred them and I got one after the show. We swap back and forth. I dont know much about the spangles, yet.

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#22531 - 11/26/02 06:32 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


pakers i am very interested in getting black out of the tail... tell me more about this black restrictor- which breeds have a NOn black tail? i have never heard of such a thing.fascinating

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#22532 - 11/27/02 07:40 AM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


Check out the topic "tail patterning".

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