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#22523 - 11/20/02 07:04 AM birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
By crossing a black ham male to silver penciled female some nice birchens were produced in the first cross. I think that improvement will come easily. I am trying to figure out how to get straighter barring on the penciled females. The barring on the males is not real good but better than the females. The hens are improving on their backs but the breasts are very curved. I assume the only way to go is time and selection. There arent many good birds of this variety to get other stock from. I also dont understand why the males are so white and the hens so barred. It is autosomal barring isnt it? 1 more thing. If I continue selecting for the clearest birds, can I eventy\ually arrive at an all white bird?

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#22524 - 11/20/02 11:24 AM Re: birchen and silver penciled
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
If you can find birchin you could get the barred pattern in both males and females like Campines. You might also need some other columbian like restrictors to get the autosomal barred pattern on a birchin background.

On the eb background the males are mostly columbian restricted because Db works more on males than females. The autosomal barred pattern is due to Db and Pg combined. Campines seem to have birchin instead of eb and may have Co as well as Db, but I don't know if that is confirmed.

Your black hamburghs may not have birchin. They may look birchin due to the columbian restrictors from the penciled combined with heterozygousity (Eeb). Some all black breeds are based on birchin (black OEG) so it is possible that your black hams may have birchin.

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#22525 - 11/20/02 05:05 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
Thankyou, do you mean, breed the birchen to a penciled. I was thinking the birchen gene was in the penciled hamburg . Im pretty sure it is in the black as now and again, a bird will come with a poor birchen color.

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#22526 - 11/20/02 06:35 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
Penciled Hamburgs are based on eb. If you want to breed standard Hamburgs you should keep the eb allele. If you want to make the males as barred as the females you can introduce the birchin allele, but they will not be standard. They will look like Campines.

To get well barred females you sometimes have to breed males that have too much barring in their plumage. These males aren't show quality because they look dirty. Females that make clean white males are too light. At least, that is what I've heard about Hamburgs.

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#22527 - 11/25/02 05:42 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


I saw some nice birchen Hamburg large fowl at the Ohio national last month. As big as the blacks.

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#22528 - 11/25/02 05:50 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
Hi Pakers. The one stag is now in my pen with some nice blacks. The birchens are 1st X of black cock to silver penciled hen. Did you see the black ham bantams? rob

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#22529 - 11/25/02 06:43 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


Were those your birchens at Columbus?

And no, I don't specifically remember the black bantams. I do remember a golden-spangled won RB hamburg bantam. It had a gold tail; golden-spangled should have black tails. It had most likely been crossed to a silver-spangled, which have white tails.

Apparently silver-spangled have a black-in-the-tail restricter whereas the golden-spangleds are just columbian.

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#22530 - 11/25/02 08:08 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
Don,s partner bred them and I got one after the show. We swap back and forth. I dont know much about the spangles, yet.

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#22531 - 11/26/02 06:32 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


pakers i am very interested in getting black out of the tail... tell me more about this black restrictor- which breeds have a NOn black tail? i have never heard of such a thing.fascinating

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#22532 - 11/27/02 07:40 AM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


Check out the topic "tail patterning".

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#22533 - 11/27/02 11:04 AM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know what the name of the restrictor is. I'm sure Ron could shed some light on it. It changes a silver wyandotte tail into a silver polish tail. It also affects the wings and neck by taking the black out of them.

In silver-spangled hamburgs, they are a white bird with spangled body feathers, black-spangled tips on the tail, spangled wings, and spangled neck feathers.

But in golden-spangled hamburgs, they are a golden-bay bird with black spangles on the body only. The tail is black, the wings are black with a bay edging, and the neck is striped. Think golden laced wyandotte with spangles.

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#22534 - 11/27/02 04:55 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


into a silver polish tail? that would be interesting. i wonder what it would do to a bbr or some of the othe r common colors, they all seen to have rather black tails which i do not care for.

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#22535 - 11/27/02 05:04 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
Im going to try and lose the black in some of my sp hams. I think I can rid the body fairly easy. The tails are not solid black, but have some white in them. I will try and put the most white pairs together. The 2 clearest are sibs, so dont know if that will make less black or just what to expect. I want a all white ham.

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#22536 - 11/27/02 06:03 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


all white hams are banned or not recoqnized for their similarity with the breed " white rosecomb"

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#22537 - 12/02/02 08:51 AM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


Since there are no white rosecomb large fowl, there should be no reason why you can't make White Hamburg large fowl. And I would guess that adding the black restricter to a BB Red would give a female with an all brown-stippled tail.

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#22538 - 12/02/02 09:38 AM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
White is a standard variety of hamburgs and there are a few around, blue is being worked on too. Are,nt there rc leghorns in large fowl?

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#22539 - 12/02/02 09:53 AM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Big Boy Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/17/02
Posts: 845
Loc: Kansas
Right you are, Rob, those being yellow-legged as per Standard. There were some fantastic RC White Leghorns about 40 years ago. It was one of the 'stringmen' that showed them at the Kansas State Fair when I was a lad. I hadn't realized how many varieties of Leghorns existed until I saw his stock. The Golden Duckwings and the Reds were superb. For my part, I am trying to get the solid black tail feathers into my SC Black Leghorns: those Black Hamburgs look too tempting.

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#22540 - 12/02/02 04:31 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
You can do that. There is not a large didderence. The only real problem I see is the leg color and that aint that hard. Dont know bout eye color? Are those hams getting big? Couple of mine are really large, couldnt show as old birds. What have you done to lose the bad color feathers so far?

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#22541 - 12/02/02 05:06 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


pakers oh you got me there. i live in the world of bantam, being a little on the short side myself.

What is the black restrictor and where can i find it? or is this the birchin effect, that male and female have similar basic e patterns so things like lacing have similar effect? maybe there is no black restrictor.

this stuff is hard to fathom i have a couple silver dukwing mutts with the black stipple faded out on the bows of the wings and a few other spots. the other areas are more sharply stippled it looks like part of her is out of focus.

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#22542 - 12/03/02 07:11 AM Re: birchen and silver penciled
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Just to confuse the tail issue, I have an ER/eWh Jap cockerel that is a poorly marked Blue Silver Spangled, but with solid blue tail. I also have an ER/e+ d’Uccle cockerel that at 1st glance looks like a Buff Columbian, complete with columbian markings around neck, saddle & black tail. He hatched as a solid black. Both would have to have Db (Dark Brown), Columbian. Other d’Uccles have some poor spangling, but mostly black with gold on back/wings/breast. There is Pg, Ml in both lines but not necessarily every bird. Of course, these are heterozygotes & plenty of variation. Nowhere near any variety standard, just oddities. Neither are crossbred, no Hamburg/Sebright, etc, just recombining genes from colour crosses others have made before me. A lot of fun finding what’s hidden.

Dr O. mentioned previously of segregated ER Buff lines. Crawford mentions of Buff Minorca (Brumbaugh & Hollander, 1966) with ey or ebc/?, Co/Co, db+/db+, Mh/Mh, Di/Di. All Co, Db, Mh, & Di genes are listed in Crawford as Colombian-like restrictors. I don’t think it was conclusive as to what genes/combinations are necessary for a solid buff bird. Anyone know any more recent studies?

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#22543 - 12/04/02 04:31 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Anonymous
Unregistered


Also, I don't think there are any "restrictions" on new varieties. But if you would come up with cuckoo plymouth rock, for example, the APA members wouldn't accept it. It isn't a real different breed.

Plus black rosecombs are the most common rosecomb, and black hamburgs are pretty common too.

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#22544 - 12/04/02 05:05 PM Re: birchen and silver penciled
Rob Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 783
Loc: Pennsylvania
Black hams are,nt rare but they just about all originate from one source. If you want fresh genetics you pretty much need to outcross to another color variety. hence my use of the birchen. I really thing the rosecombs are miniature hamburgs, which were in fact used for development in seabrights and many other rosecombed breeds.

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