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#23126 - 08/13/02 07:45 AM ER that do not look like BIRCHEN
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know that the gene (ER) birchen usually produces a black (or blue) bird with white or red hackle and some breast lacing. Examples are birchen, silver blue, lemon blue and brown reds.

What I don't understand is how the birchen (ER) gene can also produce completely different birds like the laced-tailed Polish and Sebright and the clear hackled Campine. I know the pattern (Pg) gene is at work, but is it alone enough to convert ER birds into something that doesn't look birchen at all? Is there one "magic" gene that must be present?

Also, what other colors/patterns are created with ER?

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#23127 - 08/13/02 02:33 PM Re: ER that do not look like BIRCHEN
CJR Online   content
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8483
Loc: Montana
No expert here (I usually speak only about those few gene combinations I work with regularly) but I have books! Just like under the White or Black birds, there can be a great variety of genes that are hidden, so with Birchen, the addition or combinations of SS s or CoCo or momo or PgPg, as you have mentioned, singly or multiple added genes, etc, can completely change the genotype of a Birchen bird. This is why the book has not been written on feather color and texture that covers every bird we have. I try to start at be beginning of each variety I work with--but who knows where the beginning is?? I'm studying--very little at a time! I have information on the igig gene (from Holland sources), as it is not included in the genetic makeup of many varieties of poultry in the U.S. and only one breed in genotype--but is, in a number of varietes in quite a few breeds, in Europe and Asia. But I have raised birds with e+e+igig for 18 years--breeds true, and my Dutch friends have helped me understand it--but not entirely!!! CJR

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#23128 - 08/16/02 07:55 AM Re: ER that do not look like BIRCHEN
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
The birchin allele (ER) is a weaker black allele than dominant extended black (E). It interacts with other genes to form patterns where the E allele would be dominant epistatic and hide these patterns. In Polish my experience tells me that Silver, Gold and Buff laced birds all have birchin black. Normal columbian laced breeds like Wyandottes have the partridge allele (eb). It appears that the only thing different between Wyandottes and Polish is ER (birchin) and Db (dark brown). The addition of birchin and Db seems to allow the lacing to invade the tail feathers. Polish would have the genotype of ERER CoCo DbDb PgPg MlMl and Wyandottes would have ebeb CoCo dbdb PgPg MlMl. The reason that Wyandottes do not have Db may be that the combination of two columbian restrictors may remove too much black from the bodies of the birds. Birchin black may put just enough more black in the bird to compensate the columbian restriction. The dominant Extended black allele puts too much black and you get the Andalusian pattern of a darker lace on a black or blue bird. I doubt that Andalusians have Db, but I don't think that anyone has checked.

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#23129 - 08/16/02 02:05 PM Re: ER that do not look like BIRCHEN
Kaalnek Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 415
Loc: California
Is it possible for E birds to express color other than black? Such as red feathers on the wing or neck on an otherwise solid black bird?

I ask as this sometimes happens here after a black bird had been crossed with an e+ bird. Also it appears some Silkie breeders are struggling with off colored hackles appearing in their black Silkies.. are black Silkies E or ER?

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#23130 - 08/16/02 03:06 PM Re: ER that do not look like BIRCHEN
R. Okimoto Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 1498
Loc: Arkansas
It will probably vary with each cross, but I have done Australorp X brown line crosses that I know the E locus alleles and the Eeb hybrid birds have males with some color in their hackles and that is about it. You'd expect the saddles to have some color, but all the males that I kept only got color in their hackles and only spotty color. When I did a Langshan X columbian Wyandotte I had the same Eeb hybrids, but now Co (columbian) was in the mix and I got color in the hackle, saddle and shoulders of the males. In both cases the hybrid females were all black, and if they had color other than black it wasn't eye catching.

Birchin black hybrid females show color in their hackles without Co on an ERe+ hybrid background. The hybrid males are nearly wild-type BB red except that they don't have a lot of red in their primary flights like wild-type. Some hybrid males do have some color in their primary flight feathers.

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#23131 - 08/19/02 07:48 AM Re: ER that do not look like BIRCHEN
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for your answers! I thought that Db was the "magic" gene, but I couldn't remember and needed verification.

Kaalnek asked the very question that was wondering about. From my birchin rooster I often get pullets that are solid black except for a bit of red or cream around the neck.

This same rooster has also sired daughters that have clean buff hackles but the buff body and tail are decorated with parallel lines of brownish-black. Is this the Db gene at work too? Did it come from my Birchin rooster or from her buff Orpington mother?

I have another question, but concerning blue Wyandottes. Are they Co or co+ ? Also are they S or s+? I have crossed my partridge Wyandotte rooster with 3 blue hens. Two are a light pigeon blue with an occasional black fleck. The third is an almost blue-black that was sold to me as a blue-laced red. Every one of 14 chicks is black with no sign of blue. The little wing tips are white and the throats are white. All of the offspring of this same cross from last year became blue-black pullets.

If I breed one of them back to a partridge, I'm wondering if I've introduced S or Co from the blues. I want to have a blue-tailed partridge.

Thanks everyone!

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