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#24327 - 04/17/09 02:37 AM Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Htul Offline
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I seem not to have a good understanding of this at all! Could I have clarification as to whether popular consensus is that this is a single gene trait or a polygenic trait? I know much has been made of recent work and some photos that apparently provide evidence supporting single gene involvement, but it's still not clear to me if this is generally accepted or not. (For those interested in answering this as a poll, the following may be of use:

http://forum.backyardpoultry.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7973831 )

Many thanks,
Htul

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#24328 - 04/17/09 04:26 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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I believe there are at least 3 alleles, dunno how much genes.
1st allele the wildtype
2nd allele the palebreasted/non salmon breast type
3rd allele the enhanced type like in serama cocopop coloration

The 2nd type could also be het wheaten or het eb.
The red shoulders of purebreed silver cockerels could be mahogany involvement or another enhanced type of Autosomal red.
I have no trouble breeding intense salmonbreasted pullets and clean white shouldered S/S cockerels from the same parents.

I often get 50:50 ratio's cockerels with non red shoulders (all golden) and red/orange shoulders when crossing silver and gold dutch bantams. Small numbers though.

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#24329 - 04/17/09 04:58 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Htul Offline
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Have you ever ended up with red/orange shouldered S/S and e+/e+?

A lot is made of red-shouldered S/S cockerels eg. salmon Faverolles - but I was wondering if that might not be due to eWh/eWh. Is the same also true for e+/e+?

Also, do you think "allele" is the best term? Three distinct 'phenotypes', I would agree with, but 'alleles'?

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#24330 - 04/17/09 06:45 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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No S/S with red/orange shoulders unless wheaten based.

No doubt faverolles have some form of red enhancement.

Yes, allele. Just wanted to describe them by a typical phenotype effect.
Most genetic variations are alleles... wink
Except things like position effect (a different locus (translocation) or orientation of the gene alters it's expression).

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#24331 - 04/17/09 07:21 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Bushman Offline
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I had a strain of S/S, e/e bantams in which the males were all red shouldered and the females looked like normal silver females. Worked for years to clean up the males without outcrossing to no avail. So autosomal red can definitely be present on wild type.
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#24332 - 04/17/09 07:42 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Hen-Gen Online   content
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Absolutely concur with Bushman. Have a strain of Blue Silver Duckwing Welsummers, e+/e+, S/S, Bl/bl+ that are all red shouldered in the males. I believe mahogany to be present due to the intense redness of the females breasts.
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#24333 - 04/17/09 08:54 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sonoran Silkies Offline
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"the enhanced type like in serama cocopop coloration"

I've seen "serama cocopop" mentioned several times, but have no idea what it looks like. Do you have any photos, or at least a description? Thanks

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#24334 - 04/17/09 11:38 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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The cocopop serama cockerels are silver hackled, dun or chocolate tailed but their body is buff colored. The purebreed silver version S/S have a wide silver lace around the breastfeathers.
On top of that the cocopops have dark single lacing!

het silver:


homozygous silver can have a white lace between the dark lace and the buff.

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#24335 - 04/17/09 05:54 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Blackdotte Offline
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I am one of the believers in a single autosomal gene that is responsible for 'Autosomal Red'. It has in fact been noted by researchers from Hutt's time, and differentiated from sex-linked gold s+, but little if any work was done on it until Reeder.
Reeder confused the entire issue, as a result of his ego, by using a genetic symbol Ap ( for Autosomal Pheomelanin) that was already used for another gene, Apterylosis(autosomal nakedness) and ignoring the Somes convention of '+' sub scripts because his ' lack of Autosomal Pheomelanin' was found to be the norm in Grey Jungle fowl not Red Jungle fowl.
Working with a line of silver & gold bantams I was able to eventually produce a pure silver variant from the original gold line.
However it is not as simple as it seems. Interaction of other genes with Ar especially mahogany can have dramatic effects. Mahogany & Ar on a Silver sex-linked bird ,especially if Wheaten based, can & does give gold/buff/red tinted birds, the same can be true of Mahogany and 'lack of Ar' on a sex-linked silver bird.
Salmon Faverolle phenotype is an example. This also is a hypothesis for the (Wheaten) Ko-Shamo and possibly the Pekin.
Gene studies are much simpler when they can be studied in isolation.
David

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#24336 - 04/17/09 09:03 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sonoran Silkies Offline
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Henk, that is a stunning looking bird, but I don't see the buff. frown

What do the females look like?

Suze

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#24337 - 04/18/09 01:34 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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Quote:
Mahogany & Ar on a Silver sex-linked bird ,especially if Wheaten based, can & does give gold/buff/red tinted birds, the same can be true of Mahogany and 'lack of Ar' on a sex-linked silver bird.
[/QB]
David, this sentence misses it's impact on me. Can you clarify?

Sonoran, his chest is dunlaced gold/red and also the wingbow (and triangle). The proper matching hens are not yet determined but often are melanized at the head/hackle.

Sigi got the good pics... wink

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#24338 - 04/18/09 02:27 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Blackdotte Offline
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On a Silver Wheaten bird Mahogany gives a buff/gold tinted bird. This is because on Wheaten the effect of Mahogany is seen over the entire body, as in Salmon Faverolles hens. The presence or absence of Autosomal Red does not seem to affect this, except on the breast which is darker on the hen with Autosomal Red.
Silver Wheaten is not a common phenotype.

The Cocoa Pop is thought to be a phenotype as for the Silver Wheaten (Salmon) Faverolles with the Pg/Co/Ml combination.
David

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#24339 - 04/19/09 03:43 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sonoran Silkies Offline
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Plus dun? and/or choc? and Ar?

Henk, any way you can add Ar to your chicken calculator?

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#24340 - 04/20/09 01:26 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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The chocolate coloration in Serama might be more often of the sexlinked recessive chocolate type than the autosomal incomplete dominant dun type.

Calculator: I have a special demo for it. You know that.

Problem is the following:
It is not yet understood when the cocopop effect
emerges (wheaten base, het columbian or Db, enhanced red Ar ?). Furthermore I don't believe the normal ubiquitious autosomal red would suffice to have this effect (meaning cocopop not salmon/silver wheaten body color).
Finally I would have to add hundreds of pictures also... wink

Normal levels of autosomal red are the default anyway and very specific effects on salmon breast and such are not shown anyway (like in het wheaten e+/eWh).
Remember I have french and italian versions also... wink

Everyone can add genes to the chicken calculator by the way. If you want new genes to interact with the genes in the "old" calculator (like silver/gold) you can modify the "wildcard chicken calculator":
http://home.hetnet.nl/~h.meijers69/overzicht.htm#wildcardcalculator

Use the wizard-link to add genes.
In the wildcard module the effects of the "old" genes are filtered out again, except when the outcome is unsure because of a wildcard allele.
By adding a "Combination" prior to that filter (RW) you can see if the bird in question is silver or gold or wheaten or columbian etc... , and give an alternate description to their combination with autosomal red.

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#24341 - 04/22/09 09:47 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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Looking for something else entirely, I stumbled across this 2003 post by Dr. Okimoto .
wink

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#24342 - 04/25/09 04:18 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Since I like next to the red version of Cocoapop colour also the Cocoanut colour which is as the name says a silver bird with choc lacing and I don't have anymore (died), so I make another one.

The ones I started with Nut1:


Last is for colour hackle/saddle.

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#24343 - 04/25/09 04:20 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Sons became Nut2:



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#24344 - 04/25/09 04:22 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Nut3 the last:

Withdrawel of Ar+:


This proves all birds were originally silver and Ar+ is causing the 'red'.

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#24345 - 04/25/09 04:26 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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The cock of which I made both gold cocoapops and silvers:

This one looks like gold but he is S/s+ Ar+/Ar+.

Trouble is identifying the S/s+ ar/ar and S/s+ Ar+/ar birds versus the S/S Ar+/Ar+ birds.
It is very difficult to get clean white hackle ŕnd saddle on a red silver wheaten cock, just like in the peking bantam cocks which have often a yellow saddle.
In the book on page 35 you see a S/S Ar+/Ar+ Peking bantam roo and one without Ar+. Never saw the last again. The hen must be very very pale.

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#24346 - 04/25/09 04:35 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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You probably wonder what the colour of the hens is?

Mom of Nut 2 and 3.
I lost the other hen last Winter, she had more penciling (therefore the fat lace).

This pullet is candidate for the next round with Nut3:


Actually she's from the clean red silver wheaten pen because she is impure for Pg. But I suspect her of having Co or Db.

There is defenately something there that cleans her up. I need the removal of Ar in the whole bird.
Guess the rear will be a problem.

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#24347 - 04/25/09 04:39 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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These birds, none, have Mh.
I don't think the deep dark red shoulders in cocks whether S or s+ is caused by Mh unless on the red duckwing Welsumer of course.
Mh is a red enhancer, it works on both Ar+ and s+.
If both are not present there is no expression of Mh.
Just like a black enhencer Ml or diluter Bl. If there is no black in the bird there's nothing to enhence or dilute so no action of Ml or Bl.
To me the dark red shoulders (Ar+ & s+) in cocks are due to hormons. Otherwise the whole bird would be more red if Mh was present.
Mh does not work only on the cock's shoulder. Againt example Welsumer.

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#24348 - 04/25/09 04:49 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by chook-in-eire:
Looking for something else entirely, I stumbled across this 2003 post by Dr. Okimoto .
wink
Ah, the giants on whose shoulders were standing smile

Sigs, I knew you wouldn't disappoint us... wink

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#24349 - 04/25/09 05:05 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Found a photo of the other hen which is mom of Nut1:


She's also one of the founding ladies of the red silver wheaten without lacings (the nono cocoapop) with this cock:

Note the brown wing triangle of the cock.
Can anybody explain to me why it isn't white?

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#24350 - 04/25/09 05:15 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Even in pullets/hens Ar+ can be very confusing.
I know the pullet below is from Silver parents.



This is her brother:


(nice autosomal red lakenvelder pattern, lol)

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#24351 - 04/25/09 08:46 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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May I play devil's advocate?
Sigi, would it not be possible that you have bred in cream (ig) rather than having bred out autosomal red?
The birds pictured are very reminiscent of the Buff/Brown Leghorn X cream descendents described by Punnett in his 1948 article on cream plumage .

chook

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#24352 - 04/25/09 02:57 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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Quote:
Note the brown wing triangle of the cock.
Can anybody explain to me why it isn't white?


Continuing with the cream hypothesis I suggest the wing bay is not white because he is not silver, but eb(?) and ig.

I have taken a screenshot of the crucial (IMHO) bit of text from Punnett's article.



Note especially the description of white edging in the male hackles and the observation that "though less intense, chestnut in Brown Leghorn remains chestnut in its cream counterpart" and "hen closely resembles a silver-grey".

What d'ye think?

chook

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#24353 - 04/25/09 03:56 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Very interesting chook.
There's been spoken of cream colour, not of white.
Is there a description of the chick down of those golden birds that look white/silver?
Is ig also expressed in chick down? Silver/platinum stripes instead of yellow?

How can I make the body feathers white?
Is that also Ig? Does it dilute the red/gold ground colour into white?
Now I'm only selecting for the less red.
There is no cleaning up at once as if a recessive starts to work because its pure. The red can only be removed by selection.
As we do in SL Cochin bantams as described on page 67.
That took also years. If its ig, you only need this gene pure (inbreeding) and your birds have no autosomal red anymore.
That would be great, but I never saw that happen... lol

This was my example, CocoaNut:


As you see, still remains of red in this bird.

I got this:

And he died of Mareks last year.

This below is CocoaFrost:


Do you think he is also gold with ig like the others above?
I don't understand it anymore.
Are there photos from the text you've posted?

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#24354 - 04/25/09 04:01 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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This is the original Capt. CocoaPop:


Some photo's of CocoaPatton, brother of Capt. CocoaPop:


He was the first who started to become white.

Imo ig is a diluter of sex linked gold.
When its not in the bird he looks like sand colour, when there is only Di. When ig is pure the hackle becomes straw to white.
Until now I've learned/understood you need ig to make yellow partridge as in UK Wyandottes, or yellow duckwing as in Dutch Bantam, OEG etc. It dilutes the golden hackle to straw colour.

For sand colour see lemon/citrus silkies I've posted before several times plus what happend when they were inbred (ig/ig).

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#24355 - 04/25/09 04:12 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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I think this is ig/ig on a buff bird lacking Di.


These are the other way around, this is Di/Di, lacking ig.

Just thoughts....

(different light circumstances, the top photo is more lighter in real, its night so can't photograph that boy)

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#24356 - 04/25/09 04:41 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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Sigi, best read the article (link above). There are chick descriptions of Buff Leghorn X cream and Brown Leghorn X cream as well as descriptions of Buff X cream males that look like silvers. But because it's an old journal it's not possible to copy and paste out of it, each page is an image file.
There are images of adult males as well but unfortunately they are B&W.

Night.
chook

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#24357 - 04/26/09 01:25 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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In the article the cream dilution is birdwide, not limited to hackle and saddle.

A cream duckwing would have lighter wing triangles.
http://www.hollandsekriel.nl/kleurslagenpagina%27s/470/geelpatrijs%20haan470.jpg

...

The article does mention that mahogany and cream don't mix, maybe on the females to a cold chestnut.

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#24358 - 04/26/09 02:54 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henk69:
In the article the cream dilution is birdwide, not limited to hackle and saddle.

A cream duckwing would have lighter wing triangles.
http://www.hollandsekriel.nl/kleurslagenpagina%27s/470/geelpatrijs%20haan470.jpg

...

The article does mention that mahogany and cream don't mix, maybe on the females to a cold chestnut.
Well, on p. 329 Punnett writes "... that not only pullets but cockerels also were produced which were very close to the Brown Leghorn type of plumage." So these would have been pretty dark brown (presumably eb) as the Dark Brown Leghorns below, despite carrying cream.


EDIT: Correction: The author just states "Brown Leghorn", not "Dark Brown Leghorn". So did he use Light or Dark ones?

To reiterate the matings, here is a summary:

F1: Brown Leghorn male X Columbia-like cream [from Buff Leghorn X cream F2]
= all golds with non-descript melanic markings

F2: = c.75% golds, c.25% cream

> of cream F2 darkest pullets selected which closely approached general colouration of Brown Leghorn females
> cream F2 males predominantly light, 'a good deal splashed with chestnut and black'

F3: "Splashed" F2 male X cream F2 Brown Leghorn type pullet
= 2 classes:
Female 1) breast colour salmon or nearly full salmon
Female 2) breast colour pale salmon or only salmon tinged
Male 1) as male F2 parent
Male 2) approaching nearly Brown Leghorn

F4 (and following?) "utlimately established a strain with typical Brown Leghorn plumage but on a cream ground instead of on a gold one" where the "hen closely resembles a silver-grey" and the males have the white edging in hackles and black and white rather than black and gold secondaries.

That description of the male would seem to fit Sigi's founder male with the mahogany wing bay.

chook

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#24359 - 04/27/09 10:11 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Krys Offline
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Brown Leghorn in UK is same as light brown leghorn in US. As Punnett will have meant e+.

I had cream brown leghorns. David Francis' birds from David Applegarth when re-creating Cream Legbars. I could not, with any certainty, distinguish the chicks from the gold based brown chicks. The expression seemed more varied in pullets varying from looking much like silver duckwing, though slightly browner in the body, to a warmer coloured bird looking cream in hackles & browner in body. Darker areas finely laced with cream. The breast did not seem affected. The males seemed more consistently coloured cream in neck & saddle hackles, shoulders chestnut, wing triangle cream. (same colour as in pic above).
Don't know if that helps.

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#24360 - 04/27/09 03:40 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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I lack brains, the grey mass to be more specific.
Is there a look-a-like somewhere on internet you can post here of how those mahogany leghorns look when ig/ig hit them? Breed doesn't matter.

I need pictures, I am a picture person because my phantasy is too large, it can be anything in my head. I can't make an image of words. And I am very much interested. Thanks.

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#24361 - 05/04/09 03:16 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Is this a gold or silver bird?
'Orange farbig Welsumer bantam, german colour"
(orange coloured)

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#24362 - 05/04/09 03:37 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sigi:
Is this a gold or silver bird?
'Orange farbig Welsumer bantam, german colour"
(orange coloured)
I'd say it's a gold. Look here:
http://www.welsumer.de/bilder.htm
Silvers are at the bottom.

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#24363 - 05/04/09 03:46 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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Gold.
The salmon breast is not too much affected by the cream ig/ig.

Interesting pic.
Pleads for autosomal red involvement in welsumer.

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#24364 - 05/17/09 05:30 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Text next to photo says: Orangefarbig, orange coloured, I'd say its a silver with autosomal red. SG 95 E Very Good 95 points.
Seems logic its a silver since the Germans made a silver Welsumer.
And the Welsumers in Germany carry Ml, therefore the light feather quils in hens and 'spangled' breast in males. The country of origin opposes the German standard which is forced upon the Dutch breed club by the...... DUTCH standard commission.
In other words: how to fritter a breed....
On the judges congress last Saturday there was a presentation and suddenly the judges were told to stick to the Dutch standard. The breed club was told different...Perhaps because I've made a lot of noise?
But this is off topic although the S/- Ar+/Ar+ is called orange, lol

I made these photos today:




She's a cross between columbian and silver laced (cochin bantam).
Goal was to improve type and size and 'add' Co in order to 'open' the lacing. We've had autosomal red for years in the SL cochin bantams, culled 90% of the roosters and now this in a pullet.
The columbian was bought in Germany, they have the largest cochin bantams. We cull all offspring of this year (which means: they go to people in the city for back yard upholstery) because we are NOT waiting for again lots of Ar+ which you see after youth feathers moult out, so will take a few months.

Just an example.... its not just a 'male' issue as you see, this unwanted red (LOL).

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#24365 - 05/17/09 09:48 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Manok Offline
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I have been thinking whether it would not be possible to ENHANCE the red in such culls, in order to come to a new color variety. Use this "Ar" to do the opposite to Silver, to what ig is doing to s+.

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#24366 - 05/18/09 12:27 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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I like it too.

Orange is used in Germany for cream ligt browns and partridges too. And if silver they mean the het kind.

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#24367 - 05/18/09 04:10 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
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interesting. i would guess this pullet will become more red when she moults into her second year (first year as hen).

maybe the columbian had mahogany in her and maybe the silver laced had autosomal red? or maybe the other way around and thus the 2 together produced the red?

i have birds similar colour in both wheaten and a rooster similar on eb that is henfethered.

k

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#24368 - 05/18/09 05:30 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Blackdotte Offline
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Combining Ar+ ,Mh & S on a eWh background gives the Salmon (Mahogany Silver Wheaten) pattern of the Faverolle. It would be interesting to see the effect of the Pg Ml Co group on it.
David

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#24369 - 05/19/09 04:46 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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THis chick is from Silver Laced mother, there is no Ar+ in the SLs anymore, last one was in 2005, took years of selection.

The german columbian cock must have had Ar+.

There is also done a reciprocal cross, german columbian hen x silver laced dutch, these chicks don't show autosomal red.

For telling the reciprocals apart the german Co female x dutch SL male is done later, so those chicks are much smaller and still have chick feathers. Have to wait for them.

Here's another one: silkiesilkierama
Father split for choc F1 silkierama:
mon was eb/eb S/- Pg/Pg Ml/Ml black silkie
dad was e+/eb? S/S Ar+/Ar+ Pg/pg choc/choc serama
x another black silkie bantam hen (all silkie bantams are S)




unlogical comb: single again, thought silkie rose was dominant, in all other chicks its rose.

The eyestripe is e+ again?

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#24370 - 05/19/09 08:16 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
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Sorry to be a pain, but "there is no Ar+ in the SLs anymore, last one was in 2005, took years of selection." goes to the heart of Htul's opening question. If autosomal red was a single autosomal dominant gene it would not take years of selection to get rid of it.
I don't have any practical experience on this front but if it takes a very experienced breeder like Sigi years to select against this trait, I can only conclude that autosomal red is a polygenic trait and hence should not be termed Ar+.
My 2 eurocents worth.
chook

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#24371 - 05/19/09 05:59 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Perhaps the years were because of crossing with other birds like silver pencilled, cuckoo for type and size, as with Columbians from Germany this season.
When crossing with a strange bird, I can expect things I can't predict because they are not visible in the bird itself.
That's not only for Ar+ but also for side sprigs, weak health (not lice-proof or coccidiosis sensitive chicks) etc.

There are also chicks that don't show Ar+ (yet), perhaps its not in them, perhaps it will pop up later or perhaps in the next generations?

We're not breeding always with the same birds because line and inbreeding gives troubles in size, they become as small as pekin bantams, that's too small for the continental standard which is dominated by Germany, therefore large bantams necessary.
Pekins are HALF the size of continental cochin bantams.

But perhaps you are right. I can't tell because I did not breed with only related birds. So if we use the offspring of SL x columbian, we can expect to have to select against Ar+ in males and females for years again. But shure we'll use them because they are large birds. Just breed enough and cull a lot.

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#24372 - 05/19/09 06:06 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Some more, now Autosomal red silver birds enhanced with Mahogany, gives nice extreme effects, photographed last month in the US.



His brother with bad type but same colour but somewhat more diluted:


Detail:


I just continue with showing examples and collecting autosomal reds all over the world, LOL

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#24373 - 05/19/09 07:10 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
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sigi do you think these roosters are Ss+ or SS?

k

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#24374 - 05/20/09 01:18 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by chook-in-eire:
Sorry to be a pain, but "there is no Ar+ in the SLs anymore, last one was in 2005, took years of selection." goes to the heart of Htul's opening question. If autosomal red was a single autosomal dominant gene it would not take years of selection to get rid of it.
I don't have any practical experience on this front but if it takes a very experienced breeder like Sigi years to select against this trait, I can only conclude that autosomal red is a polygenic trait and hence should not be termed Ar+.
My 2 eurocents worth.
chook
You have to think of epistatic effects like 2 doses of columbian suppressing autosomal red.
In an all purebreed columbian breed you would get the occasional purebreed Ar+/Ar+ (or a more potent mutation thereof as I suspect) that might be strong enough to show through. Most dominant genes are stronger in 2 doses albeit marginally, they would have to be called incomplete dominant if you are strict (eg. 1 dose 90%, 2 doses 100%).
To me "polygenic" is an excuse for not fully understanding the mechanism how things work. Of course things can be polygenic, no doubt.
Sigi is not talking about birds being attacked by a genetic bucket of red paint but also about tiny flecks of autosomal red. Things like that would not be thought of as "expression" by some.

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#24375 - 05/20/09 05:18 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Nice explanation Henk. I just continue to collect Ar+ in all kinds of expressions. I still don't fully understand it myself. Breeding it is like breeding blue, its segregating in all kinds of red shades. Did not find a connection with the e-allele in the roosters. For the hens, eWh allows an even spread over the whole bird, even when the eWh is almost white like the weird dilutions of dun or choc birds, like coffee cream.
It seems that autosomal red isn't 'salmon' but more of a kind of buff to brown, when a stand alone colour in a silver bird.

Karen, S/S roosters, they are with S/- hens also with red, less than this, in roosters due to hormons all reds especially on sex linked places are more strong. Will ask for photos of his girls, didn't make a picture of them.
Since the prices of flying are going down extremely (450 euro vice versa Miami) I consider to go back to Jerry for more photos and first make a plan what I want to show. First have to let my partner get used to the idea for a week US again, lol

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#24376 - 05/20/09 06:29 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Henk, I can asume the SL hen that was mated to the columbian rooster was free of A+ because when she's mated with one of the other SL roosters her sons and daughters are free of red flecks and the sons don't have dark brown/red on the shoulders.
That's the place where Ar+ loves to locate on male birds, probably due to hormons.

Why doesn't the columbian rooster show himself Ar+?
His other chicks don't show autosomal red, yet.
They are also less patterned. Mostly white with some double lacing, one Lakenvelder pattern, one purely white. In total left after culling (is giving to backyarders) 8.

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#24377 - 05/20/09 03:14 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
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In these roosters we see a mixed spread of AR+. Any ideas of why this should be so? Could it be dosage related?

k

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#24378 - 05/21/09 12:37 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Ar+ seems not to glue very easy on hackle and saddle (hackle in females), the sex linked feathers.
I am sure there is a dossage effect but by what gene(s)?
I did see red dilutors at work that also affected Ar+, in both gold, het. and silver birds.

As I wrote before, in cocks its very difficult because S/s+ cocks show similar colours although in those the saddle is mostly more yellow from base to tip. Of course I still don't know how Ar+ works.

Yesterday (we're finished with normal breeding, now the experiments) I started another Ar+ experiment with cochin bantams. I've put a SL female to a S/s+ Laced cock. He's phenotypical totally gold, but we know he's hetero.
I want to know how his silver daughters will look like.
I do have an idea, like the double laced silver barnevelders that are created some 5 years ago and they are still very brassy.
I don't know if the S/s+ GL cock carries Mh, I don't think so because our mille fleur cochins have a tobacco ground colour, not red.

Chick down doesn't tell much either.
The cocoapops (serama) have orange (like The orange, very bright colour) stripes next to platinum white stripes. Why should affect Ar+ NOT the 'silver' stripes in chick down?

PS the Ar+ Mh cocks above both have one dose of hysterical mottling as you see. Don't pay attantion to the white primaries so.

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#24379 - 05/21/09 02:48 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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You mean "tabasco"?

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#24380 - 05/21/09 06:09 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Tobaco, smoke stuff, light brown. One c.
Sorry...

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#24381 - 05/21/09 03:42 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
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sigi i don't suppose you can put up a photo of your cocpop serema baby chickens as i find it hard to see the colour you describe as in my mind it looks like dominant white on eb.

i am very interested in your breeding program and even if i am not replying i am reading. i shall have to reread your last post later today as i have thumper of a headach and it makes my head swim but i will fathom it. what i would love is a photo of your birds that you plan to breed and your aim. i will comment again later in the day when i can think better as i am confused over you having a gold bird that is Ss+.

k

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#24382 - 05/22/09 03:41 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Here is such an orange striped chick, very hard to photograph in Februari:


And another one:


And another one:


Here the variations in cocoapop:
Photo made in the US when cocoapop colour started to breed. I'm a 'long distance breeder' so based on photos made from the hens made a pen and this is the result of 3 hens.
The lighter chicks are silver based since I choose one hen which had silver hackle but was overall redish. All hens wheaten based what you can see in the way they are pencilled.
Later from these chicks hens were selected, we prefer single lace but that takes a few years.

I'll post later photos of cocoapop pairs but I think I already did that? Can't remember. Make another thread of it. This is autosomal red, trying to recognize it which is best done on silver based birds.

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#24383 - 05/22/09 03:35 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
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i see. wheaten chicks with the normal black smudges changed to chocolate. but i do not expect the wheaten to be changed by any AR or s+ or mahogany as in my indian game until the first flight feathers appear i cannot tell if they are jubilee or dark and in the pekins i cannot tell if the are silver or gold, however on eb i can.

on AR 'glueing to hackle' interestingly i notice this 'glue' must be stickier in different areas of the hackle where the outer edge can be silver in a wheaten yet striped in the middle with red and with out any affect from Pg....me thinks i had better get a photo of this today.

k

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#24384 - 05/23/09 01:23 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
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here is a wheaten. she is silver and for some reason her hackle is striped in the center with red.



closer:



k

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#24385 - 05/23/09 01:35 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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That must be remainders of black. wink

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#24386 - 05/23/09 02:14 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
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here is another one.

Db makes black tailed whites and black tailed buffs.

if on the silver (black tailed whites) the gold is replaced by silver but mahogany and AR are left behind then wouldn't you expect this on wheaten?:





remembering that neither of these birds are dominant white.

and there is no remnants of black in the hackle of the hen. here is a Hf eb ckl with red AND silver:





unfortunatly he is Pg.

k

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#24387 - 05/23/09 09:36 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Manok Offline
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Gorgeous!

But for the hen:
How would you get the tail and wing feathers white without dominant white, or Bl/Bl ?

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#24388 - 05/24/09 10:18 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
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same way as you do on a buff i suppose.

how do you get the whole bird red when it is a silver? it must be possible.

k

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#24389 - 05/25/09 02:00 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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Photos from Karen:
For the last cockerel, the black is pushed away by mahogany.
For the Pekins, I've seen this more often, have to look in my database for the photos. Saw it in a silver wheaten cochin bantam (same as pekin only larger). Its pure eWh S/- Ar+ nothing else, also not splash (Bl/Bl can cause this too). I have no explanation for the black going away. Perhaps there's no black present? You see that sometimes in Asian games, of which the silver wheatens even lack Ar+ and thus can look like whites with some dirt.
For the hen, one post higher with the red hackle, its the edge being white causing an optical white lace. Depending on the breed these 'hairs' can be longer or shorter or have flitter. The same for the cockerel, its the hairs on the hackle feathers that are white, same for the breast.

During making buff silkie bantams there was always black in the tails and primaries (Db/Db Pg/Pg). When breeding this out, they became white instead of black. Don't know why.

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#24390 - 07/05/09 05:41 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Htul Offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Henk69:
I believe there are at least 3 alleles, dunno how much genes.
1st allele the wildtype
2nd allele the palebreasted/non salmon breast type
3rd allele the enhanced type like in serama cocopop coloration

The 2nd type could also be het wheaten or het eb.
The red shoulders of purebreed silver cockerels could be mahogany involvement or another enhanced type of Autosomal red.
I have no trouble breeding intense salmonbreasted pullets and clean white shouldered S/S cockerels from the same parents.

I often get 50:50 ratio's cockerels with non red shoulders (all golden) and red/orange shoulders when crossing silver and gold dutch bantams. Small numbers though.
For quite some time, I never really fully grasped what Henk meant by his first statement in this response. But on pondering the whole "autosomal red" issue further, I think this is a very profound comment on the nature of "autosomal red".

I think the whole issue has been very much confused by making the expression of "salmon breast" and "enhanced red" allelically synonymous as "Ar+" (at least that has been my impression).

I quite agree with Henk's observations that the "lack of salmon breast" may not be to do with "Ar+" (or the lack thereof) at all - but purely by heterozygosity at the E locus. This is one of the things that has very much troubled me about the whole concept of "Ar+" - that if the theories about silver duckwing cockerels with no red shoulders were purely due to ar/ar or Ar+/ar - where have all the ar/ar hens with white (or gold) breasts instead of salmon been hiding? So personally, I have been very sceptical that the salmon breast could be explained by single gene involvement.

However, it really seems to me that most of the time, that talk of "Ar+" is referring to Henk's "3rd allele" of "enhanced red". I don't know enough of this nor have enough direct experience to have an opinion if this is single gene or polygenic - but a nomenclature query:

If this "Ar+" expression refers to an "enhanced red" state - and therefore, is not present in the wildtype - should not the terminology be "Ar" and "ar+", and not "Ar+" and "ar"???

Cheers,
Htul

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#24391 - 07/05/09 10:03 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
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Well, if the red jungle fowl have it, it should be called Ar+, if not then Ar.
One "camp" thinks the first, another small camp (me) thinks it is not. Why? because I think it is not present that much. Crossing wildtype color birds with silver columbians will not give red leaking silvers.
In cocopop, red is breaking thru the columbian restriction.

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#24392 - 07/05/09 04:58 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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My post of May 17 shows a columbian (from SL x Co) with red. Hen.
If the columbian cock is pure, and has no red, than the red must come from the silver laced mother which doesn't show a sign of red. I think its therefore interesting because this example shows a hen and not a cock and his shoulder red.
What makes this unknown red in the hen more red than the salmon light brown if there are no male hormons to enhance it?
Autosomal means on both sexes the same. Means it expresses the same no matter the sex. So go beyond the male shoulders.
Take a close look at the salmon breasts of silver hens. Some are orange incl. the back and wing bow. That is called rusty, just a fault, not enough culled. But what causes the extension of this unknown red on silver duckwing hens?

To me Ar+ behaves like blue, it segregates as hell, seems dominant in one dose and is very hard to eradicate once it enters a line of silvers, thus unwanted.
When its part of a pattern as we call it, it behaves the other way around from black. It comes into the feather from the body side, it withdraws from the edge of the feather back to the body.
When you have a silver laced with autosomal red and the autosomal red is not 'strong' enough (enough other red enhancers? or not pure?) you get optical a double lace.
Black or choc outer lace, white lace which is actually the silver feather, than red part.
In another variety the red dilutes when not enough present, see photos of my re-creation of CocoaNut (choc laced silver).
Why these different ways of red withdrawel? Pure red withdraws, and on the other it faints.

Suppose autosomal red was black and there is not enough to 'fill' the feather. Than you would have on one hand full black on half of the feather and on the other hand a grey feather when not enough black.
I think these different phenos are weird in this 'unknown' red.
The silver birds are only mentioned because we think its normal there is red in golden birds. It can only be shown on silvers to prove its not Mh nor s+ on S/- hens.

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#24393 - 07/08/09 10:47 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
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ok i have been having a think too.

perhaps in the presence of Pg (or some other restrictor/organizer) autosomal red is restricted and not able to enter the edges of the feather. if black, gold or silver is present it is allowed into the edge of the feather (or remains unaffected). hence you get red centres caused by AR and mahogany and silver lacing because there are not enough black enhances.

and thinking of Ml, perhaps it helps move the red away from the edge of the feather but does not show black when there is not enough black present.

so maybe Pg and Ml dogether push away Ar and mahogany from the edges and draw black to the edges but ig nors silver and gold that can settle where it is able. AR and Mh cover silver and gold. where there is say no Ml or maybe no Pg the AR and mahogany become sort of stippled (less solidified) with gaps allowing say silver to show through.

maybe this is another version of what sigi is saying. but here i think that it does not matter if the E allel is either eWh or eb.

k

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#24394 - 10/19/09 08:17 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
KazJaps Offline
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Htul...
Quote:
I think the whole issue has been very much confused by making the expression of "salmon breast" and "enhanced red" allelically synonymous as "Ar+" (at least that has been my impression).
I agree. The following is the traditional meaning of "Autosomal Red", ie Hutt's reference - red enhancers (I've copied the below from a previous post):

The following from Hutt, 1949 (Genetics of the Fowl: page 196) refers to autosomal red:

Quote:
There is an undetermined number of autosomal genes for red, which have not yet been satisfactorily analysed. Since the shades of color found vary from the light red, sometimes even approaching buff, found in New Hampshires, to the dark mahogany color of some strains of Rhode Island Reds, one would expect that a considerable number of genes affect the density of the red pigmentation
* Note Hutt also talks about "autosomal red or chestnut" color as ‘little affected’ in Cream (ig/ig) wildtype males (p191).

Likewise, Fred Jeffrey uses the term “autosomal red” for red enhancing mutations. He notes that Kimball found silver, wheaten, & a factor for dark red in Salmon Faverolle, therefore proposed the Salmon genotype as eWh/eWh S/S or S/- plus “autosomal red”. But Jeffrey also lists Silver Wheaten (eg as in OEGB) as eWh/eWh S/S or S/- ie not mention of autosomal red (ie ‘autosomal red’ is not wheaten salmon pigment).

I’ve listed the history of red enhancing genes in the following link:
http://www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000844#000009

Also, Jeffrey seems to think that there might be a red enhancing gene- autosomal red in Golden Duckwings, as these hens, although having the same silver neck hackles as Silver Duckwing hens, the golden hens are slightly different in wing colour (as described by the ABA Standard – ie brownish-black shades).

The following from rokimoto:
http://www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000480#000004

Quote:
Hutt was the one that came up with autosomal red. He thought that there were multiple genes involved in the autosomal red, but you can't rule out major genes. Mh is definitely a candidate for one of the autosomal red genes.
I.e., he follows Hutt's definition. So "Autosomal Red" traditionally means "red enhancer" or "phaeomelanin intensifier" etc. It does not traditionally mean "salmon" phaeomelanin, as found in e+ & eWh hens. 'Salmon pigmentation' is found in wild type hens, therefore is not a mutation, but the "red enhancers" as described by Hutt, are in reference to mutations, ie modifiers. Hence the confusion if the two terms are mixed.

'Autosomal" refers to genes or chromosomes that are not sex-linked. You can't really say that "salmon pigmentation" is autosomal, based on the expression of a single gene/mutation, ie Sex-linked Silver - S. For example, the following photo is of a e+ S - sex-linked silver hen and a e+ s^al sex-linked imperfect albinism hen (both alleles of the S locus).

From the following url -
Mutations in SLC45A2 Cause Plumage Color Variation in Chicken and Japanese Quail – Figure 1]

FIGURE 1.—
Chickens expressing the wild type (S*N), Silver (S*S), and sex-linked imperfect albinism (S*AL) phenotypes.


The above from the following research paper:

GUNNARSSON, U., A. R. HELLSTROM, M. TIXIER-BOICHARD, F. MINVIELLE, B. BED'HOM et al., 2007 Mutations in SLC45A2 cause plumage color variation in chicken and Japanese quail. Genetics. 175: 867–877
Full Report -link
------------------

I.e, s^al, is a sex-linked mutation that significantly dilutes the salmon breast of e+ wild type.

------------------
The following from Brian Reeder (onagadori, 2003), from the same The-coop thread as the rokimoto quote is taken from (Ron was responding to Brian's post)
http://www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000480#000003

Quote:
I wonder if "autosomal red" and mahogany arent the same thing, or at least alleles of the same thing. I wonder if the pheomelanic areas of the e+ and eWh hens arent the wild allele; and the darker red shoulder of the red jungle fowl, then would perhaps be a function of the wild allele (autosomal red), while Mahogany would the the mutation.
I think this is where Brian was working out his theories on autosomal red, etc. Ron's reply in short was that autosomal red = red enhancing mutations, therefore technically Mh - Mahogany (an autosomal gene) may also be called "Autosomal Red" also. I.e. "Autosomal Red" is a term, not a single gene. And the above quote also highlights where Brian was confusing salmon pigmentation in e+ and eWh hens as 'autosomal red'. The modifying gene that Brian found in the S Phoenix line is not a red enhancing mutation - therefore is not 'autosomal red'. It modifies expression of salmon pigmentation - ie inhibits/dilutes salmon pigment. It would be more accurate to name the mutation after this trait, ie as an inhibitor (and not after the wild type). Eg, something like: 'absence of salmon pigmentation', 'inhibitor of salmon', 'diluter of salmon', etc. I.e., Brian found the complete opposite of 'autosomal red', ie not an enhancer but an inhibitor.

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#24395 - 10/19/09 09:41 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
KazJaps Offline
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One further note. Maybe the following will highlight what has gone wrong.

Brian naming the mutation (& locus) in Phoenix (that inhibits expression of salmon pigment), as 'Autosomal Phaeomelanin' - Ap, is the equivalent of naming the silver mutation & locus as 'Sex-linked Phaeomelanin'. Why would you name a mutation & locus after the wild type phenotype?

I.e. there are two areas of confusion:

1: Confusing 'autosomal red' to mean wildtype 'salmon pigmentation' &

2: Naming a locus (& mutation allele) after the wild type phenotype, & not the mutation phenotype.
(* where using old nomenclature)

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#24396 - 10/19/09 11:43 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
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To me autosomal red is all red that's not sex-linked.
Autosomal red is as seen on whites both dominant and recessive.
Mh is a red intensifier, without red present Mh doesn't do anything, it is not a red colour itself.
Just like blue if there is no black present, it's there but doesn't express.

The colour of autosomal red is buffish. If there is any red intensifier (could be blue too, for some unknown reason) autosomal red changes shade.
In the standard colour varieties there are not many colours based on autosomal red. The wheatens are the only ones and silver orange shouldered duckwings.
The red in the e+ wildtype female is how autosomal red looks like unmodified, without diluters or intensifiers (on both silver and golden females).

Since there is no better example how autosomal red looks like, most reds are modified in one way or another, the salmon e+ female breast is the best example.
Old literature doesn't bring much light, there are hardly pictures of what's ment.
But the fancy defenitely is observing 'a' red, and that's not sex linked (gold).
Autosomal red is this unidentified red.
If its a single gene or not, nobody knows.
I see in the Serama lots of autosomal red that's modified. I'm most interested in the dilution of it. And about the shade, it behaves just like blue, segregating in lots of shades which can be directed in a certain way.
It will take a few years before we know what it is. Because nobody knows where to look, and where to look for.
Suppose it can be mapped, then we only have phenotype, so also for science its very difficult where to look for.
You need a test breeding in large amounts and F2 must give 'an' answer.
How should the question be formulated to science, how must the testbreeding be done, in order to tell science where to look for. All papers are based on breeding to a colour in order to map it. But only mapping, proving it exists, doesn't tell us breeders anything more.
We are the observers, we need to come with a consistant report/document how this Ar+ behaves. And we still don't know it exactly because what must we do in order to identify it?
Its all speculation about Ar+, we want to know how and why, and we're still confused. Literature study from KazJaps (THANK YOU AGAIN SO MUCH!) shows this.
sigi

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#24397 - 10/19/09 08:13 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
KazJaps Offline
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Sigi...
Quote:
To me autosomal red is all red that's not sex-linked.
Autosomal red is as seen on whites both dominant and recessive.
I think the confusion here is in using 'autosomal red' to mean 'phaeomelanin' in general. There needs to be a distinction between the wild type phaeomelanin (types, shades and distribution) and the phaeomelanin modifying genes (ie mutations). What you've described with Recessive White, could in general be called 'red leakage' or 'gold leakage', or 'salmon leakage' (when of e+ salmon breasts, eWh salmon), ie leakage of phaeomelanin (eg as c may also leak eumelanin pigment).

I can't recall where the term came from (maybe from Somes - S -silver a 'leaky gene'?), but I’ve generally called the phenotype where phaeomelanin gold/red is leaking in typical silver areas (ie where S is present in the genotype) as ‘red leakage’ or ‘gold leakage’. Therefore, this term ‘red leakage’ does not define the trait as a mutation or gene per say, but is only a description of phenotype. The following S/- silver Indian Game crossbred hen is what I would describe as ‘red leakage’ of silver:


In this case I know (from various test breeding) that there is at least one red enhancing gene in the genotype (coming from the Indian Games), that it is dominant and autosomal. Therefore this mutation I could call in general terms as being ‘autosomal red’. P.s., this hen does not have Co.

The following is the typical phaeomelanin shades I would get in these lines of Jap roosters:

Left: S/S Silver, Middle S/s+ Golden, Right s+/s+ Orange-Red (Db in there).

The main difference in genotype of the above is the S locus (all were ER/eWh, with eumelanin restrictors – eg Db, & possibly Co, etc). S/s+ golden shades/distribution did vary in intensity and distribution (eg sometimes a more even gold throughout -except slightly darker wing bow (possibly Co, or Db/Co in genotype), sometimes Golden Duckwing shades/distribution (eWh/eWh S/s+ - light/silvery wing bay, light golden neck, darker gold-orange wing bow, etc) , and sometimes reddish wing bows (possibly due to Db alone).

I didn’t segregate s+/s+ Jap roosters that appeared gold diluted (ie always typical shades of wild type phaeomelanin). I never segregated S/S Jap roosters with red leakage, i.e always clean silver (ie no signs of red enhancers in these particular lines). But I sometimes got S/- eumelanin restricted Silver hens with red leakage. The following S/- silver eumelanin restricted Jap hen has the ‘red leakage’ phenotype:


As rokimoto has mentioned previously that it is harder to produce clean silver phenotype with S Db roosters (Db tends to leave residual orange-reddish shades in wing bow area – in his experience), I thought there might be the possibility that the above eWh/eWh hen was S/- Db, & maybe heterozygous for eumelanin restrictor(s). I.e., a possibility of ‘salmon leakage’ or red leakage in general due to the Db gene not being as effective as Co with masking salmon/phaeomelanin, ie expressing Silver. I did start to test breed the above hen, eg with eWh/eWh S/s+ co+/co+ db+/db+ Golden Wheaten rooster. But I wasn’t confident that I had left enough time to exclude the previous rooster (Black-tailed Silver/gold S/s+ eWh/eWh + eumelanin restrictors) as a parent, with the first clutch hatched after exchanging roosters. The hen produced the following chicks from this setting:

Two silver cockerels left/middle, one gold Co pullet on the right.

I can tell that the pullet has Co, due to buff chick down and clean buff-orange ground colour. Unfortunately by this stage I had had enough of the very poor Jap type coming from these lines, so decided to part with all of these. Therefore I didn’t get to test this hen again. So I never did find out the genotype & what was causing the red leakage with some of these silver hens. But I did suspect that they were heterozygous for eumelanin restrictors, due to segregating Wheaten (phenotype –ie no eumelanin restrictors) from the same parent birds. Just mentioning it here, as an example, a means to test for eumelanin restrictors (& whether het.), phaeomelanin intensifiers/diluters, ie a means to work out what causes red leakage in Silver S birds. It doesn’t have to be due to red enhancing mutations alone, ie other possibilities are het. eumelanin restrictors, the effectiveness of partial eumelanin restrictors (ie in masking wild type phaeomelanin), etc.

So this is why I think it is better not to use the term ‘autosomal red’ with silver birds with red leakage phenotype, when the genotype is undefined. And it is just too confusing for us The-Coop old timers, if you use the term ‘autosomal red’ when describing ‘salmon leakage’ in e+ & eWh S/- hens smile . The former is in reference to red enhancing mutations, the later is in reference to wild type salmon pigmentation, ie they have different definitions regarding genotypes.

So sigi, I understand where you are coming from, but there will always be this confusion if a singular term (eg autosomal red) is used in text with two different definitions.

The same has occurred in the past with the term ‘recessive black’. For example, Smyth developed an eb black (solid black adult plumage) test line, commonly called “Recessive Black” (or Massachusetts Recessive Black, etc) by rokimoto and others. This phenotype is produced by multiple eumelanisers on eb, ie is not a single mutation. Then we have Jeffrey segregating an autosomal recessive eumelaniser in OEGB, and not giving the mutation a symbol, just referring to this mutation as “recessive black’ in text. Then we have Brian Reeder using the same term ‘recessive black’ – rb in reference to his theory that the difference between wheaten phenotypes/inheritance mode of ey and eWh is due to eumelanisers only.

So it is just a matter of getting on the ‘same page’ with each other, ie knowing what is meant by the definition of specific terms. It’s the same scenario of using the same breed variety name, but for two different variety types (eg BBRed Partridge e+ wild type and Partridge Wyandotte eb Pg). May I suggest in the future we don’t use words to define new terms, where these words have been used in the past for a different meaning. Much easier to use new names for new terms than to go to the trouble of explaining the definition every time the word is used, ie trying to explain context smile . It must be a nightmare for those of you where ‘English’ is a second language wink . Just a mini ‘bad dream’ for me personally smile .

---------------
P.s.

Oh really, lol learn't a new one - emoticons are regarded as 'images', therefore we are limited to 8 in total per post. Lol, can't 'emoticon smile' again as I've used up my quota already.

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#24398 - 10/20/09 07:34 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
KazJaps Offline
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Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Maybe the following will help further to illustrate what Jeffrey, rokimoto and others describe as "Autosomal Red'.

The following Silver Wheaten hen has the genotype: eWh/eWh S/-



As Jeffrey has indicated (in Bantam Breeding & Genetics/Bantam Chickens), these Silver Wheatens Do NOT have "Autosomal Red". The salmon pigment is a part of the wild type phenotype/genotype. I.e., they have a slightly different phenotype/genotype to Salmon Faverolles.

-----------------

Salmon Faverolles have been test bred/researched in the past (eg Kimball) and found to have a red enhancing mutation. This is probably why the roosters have reddish wing bows, etc, and the hens tend to have a darker salmon shade. I.e., Salmon Faverolle are not just eWh/eWh S/S or S/-in genotype. Probably why Jeffrey lists Salmon Faverolle as having "autosomal red" is that they don't tend to have the other traits of Mh - Mahogany - ie spangling of the breast in roosters and extension of phaeomelanin (into typical eumelanin-black wildtype areas). I.e. Mh not only intensifies phaeomelanin pigment but also is a partial eumelanin restrictor.

------------------

The following Blue silver Wheaten hen is a F1 Jap crossbred (father a eWh/eWh S/s+ Bl/bl+ co+/co+ Wheaten Jap, mother single comb Indian game crossbred):


Once again slightly different phenotype/genotype to Salmon Faverolles, but what is in common with with the latter is the presence of a red enhancing mutation wink . If you wanted to, you could say the above hen has "autosomal red" (as it was an autosomal gene), but why not just leave all this confusion behind with the term 'autosomal red', and call it an 'autosomal phaeomelanin intensifier' smile ,

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#90510 - 07/20/10 03:37 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
bump

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#96227 - 05/05/11 07:17 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Poultch]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
bump, again.

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#96236 - 05/06/11 07:03 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Poultch]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
I think I may have to print this....!

Can I summarize this whole thread and share it? I'm in a duckwing breeders group, but if point them to this thread, it's so long some will not be able to get through it. Ar has come up recently....


Edited by Jenks (05/06/11 07:05 AM)

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#96237 - 05/06/11 07:13 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Chook-in-Eire]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Chook-in-Eire
Looking for something else entirely, I stumbled across this 2003 post by Dr. Okimoto .
wink


Does post referred to not exist anymore?

Nevermind about a summary. I don't think there is anyway to summarize this.

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#96241 - 05/06/11 08:54 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Jenks]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
My gosh...I have a whole new perspective.

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#96242 - 05/06/11 09:20 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: KazJaps
Maybe the following will help further to illustrate what Jeffrey, rokimoto and others describe as "Autosomal Red'.

The following Silver Wheaten hen has the genotype: eWh/eWh S/-



As Jeffrey has indicated (in Bantam Breeding & Genetics/Bantam Chickens), these Silver Wheatens Do NOT have "Autosomal Red". The salmon pigment is a part of the wild type phenotype/genotype. I.e., they have a slightly different phenotype/genotype to Salmon Faverolles.

-----------------

Salmon Faverolles have been test bred/researched in the past (eg Kimball) and found to have a red enhancing mutation. This is probably why the roosters have reddish wing bows, etc, and the hens tend to have a darker salmon shade. I.e., Salmon Faverolle are not just eWh/eWh S/S or S/-in genotype. Probably why Jeffrey lists Salmon Faverolle as having "autosomal red" is that they don't tend to have the other traits of Mh - Mahogany - ie spangling of the breast in roosters and extension of phaeomelanin (into typical eumelanin-black wildtype areas). I.e. Mh not only intensifies phaeomelanin pigment but also is a partial eumelanin restrictor.

------------------

The following Blue silver Wheaten hen is a F1 Jap crossbred (father a eWh/eWh S/s+ Bl/bl+ co+/co+ Wheaten Jap, mother single comb Indian game crossbred):


Once again slightly different phenotype/genotype to Salmon Faverolles, but what is in common with with the latter is the presence of a red enhancing mutation wink . If you wanted to, you could say the above hen has "autosomal red" (as it was an autosomal gene), but why not just leave all this confusion behind with the term 'autosomal red', and call it an 'autosomal phaeomelanin intensifier' smile ,




In the case of the hen at the bottom - you think that is the notiorious Ar on silver blue wheaten? Not just pure wheaten with no Di plus Bl and Silver on eWh? And this is because of the concentration in the shoulder/wing area? Then if Mahogany is present, it enhances the red of just the notorious Ar?


Edited by Jenks (05/06/11 09:23 AM)
Edit Reason: removing stupid questions

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#96280 - 05/08/11 06:36 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Jenks]
Jenks Offline
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Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
OK - in the Sigi/Hancox basics book, on page 18 and 19, it shows a silver breasted female duckwing....(the creations of exhibition lines)

It looks to attribute the salmon breast to Ar+ seperate from e+ ?

if not, what makes the silver breast in an e+/e+?

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#96283 - 05/08/11 12:38 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Jenks]
Henk69 Offline
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Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Heterozygous e+ with wheaten or brown (eb) could have that effect. Or maybe a red diluter.

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#96299 - 05/09/11 04:06 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
Jenks Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 05/13/10
Posts: 234
Loc: USA
Ah! Thanks!

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#96302 - 05/09/11 07:20 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Jenks]
Karen T. Offline
Chicken

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 127
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Jenks
OK - in the Sigi/Hancox basics book, on page 18 and 19, it shows a silver breasted female duckwing....(the creations of exhibition lines)

It looks to attribute the salmon breast to Ar+ seperate from e+ ?

if not, what makes the silver breast in an e+/e+?


=======================
Hi jenks,
I just had a silver breasted silver female duckwing show up here. The silver breast shows up when autosomal red is not present. It appears when only the e+ and S/s- are present, thus e+/e+ S/s- ar/ar. Wildtype in the truest sense (e+/e+ s+/s+) is the "bottom line" as far as color is concerned. There are no hypostatic genes in it. No mutations. No extra genes. Wildtype in its truest sense (e+/e+ s+/s+) is the base upon which other genes and modifers act to make all the other colors in poultry. Ar+ is a color which changes other colors. Wildtype is naturally salmon-breasted. It is part of what it is. I was warned by those with much more knowledge than myself that figuring in Ar* in breeding wildtype would be a mistake. Everything isn't yet known about Ar+. Thus, I was told figuring it in a breeding program as if it were a known and analyzed gene would be a mistake. After seeing how it sets itself in a breeding program and the mess it can make in wildtype with 2 doses, I believe it. I was warned that once AR+ sets itself in a breeding program, it is hard to winnow out. Sadly, now I believe that too and have had to go out to another strain to get non-Ar+ wildtype Marans to fix the problem.
Best Regards,
Karen

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#96303 - 05/09/11 07:35 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Karen T.]
Karen T. Offline
Chicken

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 127
Loc: Pennsylvania
Jenks,
s+/s+ and s+/s- are not the same as Ar+/Ar+; Ar+/ar; or ar/ar.
Best,
Karen

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#96317 - 05/10/11 07:05 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Blackdotte]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Blackdotte
Combining Ar+ ,Mh & S on a eWh background gives the Salmon (Mahogany Silver Wheaten) pattern of the Faverolle. It would be interesting to see the effect of the Pg Ml Co group on it.
David


A friend sent a photo of a young cockeral to me which hatched wheaton, but was buff coloured in his hatch down. He is the result of a S/s+ eWh/eWh cockeral over a S/-, hen (salmon faverolles).
His sire is also Co/? Db/? Bl/bl+ plus pheomelanin enhancers most likely in het form and I have wondered if there is Pg aswell.
The fella below is S/S .. no? Is there a vague link to this fella and the cocopop pheno?


Edited by Poultch (05/10/11 07:10 PM)

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#96323 - 05/11/11 05:11 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Poultch]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3757
Loc: Denmark
Poultch, in my opinion he has Db. What role is Pg supposed to play here? Even if it is present in the genotype, there is no eumelanin here to organize. I have never read about Pg working on pheomelanin(unless there is something I've missed)

As far as the red-free breast on e+/e+ females is concerned, there has never been presented any picture on this forum, and consequently it does not exist. There was one attempt some years ago, but the pullet looked like an outcross to wheaton, and no further examination was carried out(if I recall correctly- correct me if I'm wrong). Whitish breast on silver e+ can be a result of Db. According to Ron Okimoto one dose of Db does so little change on e+ s+ females, that it can pass unnoticed to an untrained eye.

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#96324 - 05/11/11 05:58 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Wieslaw]
Poultch Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 660
Loc: New Zealand
Originally Posted By: Wieslaw
Poultch, in my opinion he has Db. What role is Pg supposed to play here? Even if it is present in the genotype, there is no eumelanin here to organize. I have never read about Pg working on pheomelanin(unless there is something I've missed)



Thanks Wieslaw, I will put this fella in another thread(link below), so he doesn't take away from Kaern's question
http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=96325&#Post96325


Edited by Poultch (05/11/11 06:20 PM)

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#97207 - 06/23/11 04:28 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Poultch]
nzchicke Offline
Chicken

Registered: 12/24/10
Posts: 75
Loc: South Island NZ
What is the difference between autosomal red and Mh? how can you tell if a bird had one or the other or both?

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#97211 - 06/23/11 06:46 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Sigi]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3757
Loc: Denmark
Originally Posted By: Sigi
Autosomal means on both sexes the same


Not exactly. Autosomal means that the genes are situated on chromosomes other than Z and W. Autosomal traits can be easily affected by sex hormones. There are numerous examples on this, beginning with e-locus.

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#97229 - 06/24/11 05:51 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Wieslaw]
Wieslaw Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 09/18/09
Posts: 3757
Loc: Denmark
The ultimate red on silver :




taken from this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G913Fx-8kJg&feature=related

Here is a really good one(and gorgeous!):







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#98218 - 08/09/11 12:07 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Chook-in-Eire]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Hi I am new to the forum But I am a member of the SCNA seramas forum and breeding for the cocoapop color I have a few pair from captain cocoapop line from jerry and grady taylor and hope one day I can have them breed true ..

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#98219 - 08/09/11 12:08 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
I also have the seramas color book from sigrid to guild me down the road

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#98220 - 08/09/11 12:12 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California

This is one of my cocoapop cockerel from my line



This young cockerel is only 3 1/2 month old


Edited by LAseramas (08/09/11 12:15 AM)

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#98221 - 08/09/11 12:13 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California


This is one that jerry sold to me last month

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#98222 - 08/09/11 12:17 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
This is my foundation cock and to breed for the cocoapop color






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#98223 - 08/09/11 01:21 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
This is one of the rooster with the silver hackle son above
Own and breed by Joey Pham In Socal


Edited by LAseramas (08/09/11 01:48 AM)

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#98227 - 08/09/11 02:15 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
What do call a black cocopop? wink

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#98236 - 08/09/11 10:25 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
I dont know do you have pics of one ??? I on the other hand want that cocoanut color I think it is beautiful....

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#98237 - 08/09/11 10:29 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California

This is my new hen I got today in San diego CA she is the grand daughter of the original captain cocoapop from grady taylor line. I
think she is beautiful...




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#98238 - 08/09/11 11:38 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Originally Posted By: LAseramas


This is a black cocopop... wink

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#98239 - 08/09/11 11:52 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
oh him lol this is what he look like back then



This one is around 3 - 3 1/2 months.



4 months old.







Edited by LAseramas (08/09/11 11:53 PM)

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#98240 - 08/09/11 11:55 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California


and this is the chick down color I can make brother and sister to this color cause I have the original pair that made this rooster they throw one in every clutch and looks the same some with green legs and most of the time I get yellow legs

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#98241 - 08/10/11 12:50 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
This is also one of the hens I use to make this nice cocoapop color

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#98242 - 08/10/11 12:53 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
This is a very young cockerel that I pick out of the clutch for myself cause I know he will molt into the cocoapop silver hackle lace color



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#98251 - 08/10/11 10:54 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
AM I on the right track with these cocoapop so many varitiy and its very hard to chose cause I like them all lol....


Edited by LAseramas (08/10/11 10:55 AM)

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#98375 - 08/18/11 05:50 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Henk69 I have a question if you can help me . How would you get rid of the green color legs and make them yellow I have this beautiful cockerel at 4 months and he happened to have green/yellow legs which is the wrong color legs has everything else right ....


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#98376 - 08/18/11 05:51 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California



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#98382 - 08/18/11 09:44 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Proper yellow legs have the sexlinked dominant Id mutation. That should help. His e-locus should be sufficient.

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#98387 - 08/18/11 10:38 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
This is a new color of lacing to me I think he is a blue single lace bronzes tail cocoapop



Edited by LAseramas (08/18/11 10:38 AM)

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#98814 - 09/04/11 06:33 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Hi,

Remember my dusky project topic?
It showed a columbian restricted lakenvelder * japarama cockerel.
He is showing a lot of autosomal red now.
Genotype probably: het eb/wheaten, het Co/co+, het dun Id/i+, split choc, het autosomal red, het Pg/pg+, het "charcoal". When kazjaps is right that the mother is a red enhanced silver wheaten he must be homo silver!
He shows that the proposed genotype for cocopop could work.

pic when younger:


mother:


nowadays:



more: http://s42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/Henk69/DuskyProject/


Edited by Henk69 (09/04/11 06:36 AM)

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#98840 - 09/05/11 11:23 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Thank you so much I been wondering for months on how to make this and what is needed to make this cocoanut color and now I know which hen to use thank you henk

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#98924 - 09/11/11 11:38 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
Originally Posted By: Henk69
Hi,

Remember my dusky project topic?
It showed a columbian restricted lakenvelder * japarama cockerel.
He is showing a lot of autosomal red now.
Genotype probably: het eb/wheaten, het Co/co+, het dun Id/i+, split choc, het autosomal red, het Pg/pg+, het "charcoal". When kazjaps is right that the mother is a red enhanced silver wheaten he must be homo silver!
He shows that the proposed genotype for cocopop could work.

pic when younger:


mother:


nowadays:



more: http://s42.photobucket.com/albums/e330/Henk69/DuskyProject/
interesring finds Henk, this will help us all working with that type of genetics..(not me but maybe one day)

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#99305 - 09/29/11 11:19 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Marvin]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Here are some of my new breeder stocks hope you like them









Edited by LAseramas (09/29/11 11:27 PM)

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#99306 - 09/29/11 11:19 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
this guy will be use for my cocoanut project with the hen above


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#99553 - 10/13/11 02:45 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
Marvin Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1991
Loc: Nicaragua
something very interesting guys..

Originally Posted By: tadkerson
Autosomal red on silver can produce a cream color in females. Here are two young pullets that show this. The pictures does not do them justice-the flash causes more silver to show. I am working on the color-I will call the variety silver-cream.


Tim



Edited by Marvin (10/13/11 02:46 PM)

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#103467 - 04/22/12 01:41 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Marvin]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Havn't really update my work on this color but here is one that is bred by me He is what Jerry and Sig called COCOA-PATTON

Before


After when tail feathers came in not in pose.





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#103753 - 05/14/12 08:53 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California

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#103754 - 05/15/12 12:21 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
Henk69 Offline
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Registered: 02/13/06
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Loc: Netherlands
That is one fine example of that pattern!

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#104030 - 06/03/12 10:26 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Here is another one that I bred out this year .


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#104031 - 06/03/12 10:28 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Here is another one at 2 1/2 months of age . You can see where the pattern is coming in .


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#104032 - 06/03/12 10:32 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Here is a few more and what they look like at 1 1/2 month old .



Edited by LAseramas (06/03/12 10:32 AM)

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#104079 - 06/06/12 09:35 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California
Here is another one that my friend bred out from my Bloodline.




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#104426 - 06/27/12 09:22 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: LAseramas]
LAseramas Offline
Feather

Registered: 08/09/11
Posts: 26
Loc: California



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#112250 - 02/24/14 04:21 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
sarimanok Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/17/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Philippines
Originally Posted By: Henk69
I believe there are at least 3 alleles, dunno how much genes.
1st allele the wildtype
2nd allele the palebreasted/non salmon breast type
3rd allele the enhanced type like in serama cocopop coloration

The 2nd type could also be het wheaten or het eb.
The red shoulders of purebreed silver cockerels could be mahogany involvement or another enhanced type of Autosomal red.
I have no trouble breeding intense salmonbreasted pullets and clean white shouldered S/S cockerels from the same parents.

I often get 50:50 ratio's cockerels with non red shoulders (all golden) and red/orange shoulders when crossing silver and gold dutch bantams. Small numbers though.


If there are indeed different alleles of autosomal reds behaving somewhat differently from each other then using the same code Ar for all would create confusion right?
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Quote from: http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-expression-of-autosomal-pheomelanin.html
"The five commonly seen e-alleles are e+ (duckwing), eb (brown), eWh (wheaten), ER (birchen) and E (extended black). Most simply stated, Autosomal pheomelanin is found on all of these alleles, though the distribution effect is somewhat different on each allele, most visibly on the females in several cases. The Inhibitor of Autosomal pheomelanin can also be found on, and express on, all of the e-alleles.

The males of all five e-alleles are much alike in their expression of Aph or Aph^I. There are subtle differences between the males of each allele that we will discuss below, but it is the females where Aph and/or Aph^I are often most visible and variable, and help to create the unique appearances that we most relate to the e-alleles.

As I stated in my article last month, I feel that Aph is found in all of the jungle fowls and that Aph^I is found in the gray jungle fowl and perhaps also in the green jungle fowl" Quote
==========================================================================================

Regarding Autosomal pheomelanin being more visible in females than males according Reeder, it is the opposite in the expression of autosomal red in the "Pumpkin" gamefowl. In the Pumpkin gamefowl it is in the males where the red brown breast expresses very strongly while in pumpkin females, autosomal red has very little expression on the breast; it is actually on the hens hackles, wing cover and back where autosomal red is lightly detected.

I believe this autosomal red in the pumpkin gamefowl is different from Reeder's autosomal pheomelanin.

Is the pumpkin Ar wild type or a new mutation; how is it determined? Is the pumpkins Ar found in all jungle fowls?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: Originally Posted by Blackdotte2 at http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92274#Post92274

Reeder give the genotype of Redquill as e+/e+ s+/s+ Ar+/Ar+ Pg/Pg Db/Db
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The genotype given has Ar with + meaning Ar+ is wild type for the Red Quill.

If the genotype of the Red Quill has wild type Ar+ as described by Reeder, how come Red Quill males have stronger expression of Ar on the breast than female RQ? This is opposite to Reeder's own statement quoted above.

Could anyone pls post links to any post by Reeder regarding actual crosses he's done using the Red Quill. tnx

The Salmon Faverolles and Rhode Island Reds are said to carry Ar. Is their Ar the same as that of the Pumpkin's Ar? Male Pumpkins and RIR both have similar red brown breasts but why do their hens have different colored breasts?

The CocoPop Serama's, Red Quill's and Pumkin's Ar seem to be similar to each other but different from others ...

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#112251 - 02/25/14 12:44 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
sarimanok Offline
Feather

Registered: 03/17/11
Posts: 30
Loc: Philippines
Figuring out the genetics of the "Pumpkin" color, with the help of Henk and others, it was determined
to be at least Ar/_ Db/_ Id/+ or Id/Id. The Db removing the black on the breast and Ar putting the
red brown in place of the black. This means that without the Db there will be no red brown breast
expression in male Pumpkins, right? If two genes are needed for the red brown breast phenotype in
Pumpkin males to express then the trait is polygenic, right?

If the red brown breast of male pumpkins is due to Ar and Db together then the two genes can segregate.
Crossing a het Ar/ar Db/db to an ar/ar db/db only 25% of the offspring will be Ar/ar Db/db havin
red brown breast right?

Could it be possible for a new single gene mutation to code for red brown breast phenotype
without the help of Db? Is it a must that Db is always needed?

If expression of the male pumpkin red brown breast phenotype is due to a single gene "Ar", then a
het Ar/ar x ar/ar will produce 50% of the offspring with red brown breast Ar/ar right?

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#112252 - 02/25/14 01:57 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: sarimanok]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Db necessary? Not in my opinion. I think there is some henny coloring factor in play. Autosomal red may express more on rooster's breast because there is supposed to be a lot of pigment there (normally black).

RIR also have Mahogany Mh. My crosslings (with silver lakenvelder) did not express a lot of red, so I have my doubts about them having the strong version of autosomal red... wink

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#112262 - 02/25/14 07:25 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Thanks for the links to updated Brian Reeder articles. Very good in clarification. So now we have an acceptable genetic name & symbol (although not perfect: no need for superscript -locus named after single mutation allele):

Inhibitor of Autosomal Pheomelanin (AphI, or Aph^I)

This should make it clear to everyone that the trait found by Brian Reeder (in Phoenix) is an inhibitor of phaeomelanin, something completely different to Hutt's "Autosomal Red", the latter a generic term (not a specific mutation) in reference to Hutt's observation of phaeomelanin intensifiers.

So now forget about the "Ar" posted by Blackdotte2 in reference to Brian Reeder's "Ap" Autosomal Phaeomelanin.

The wild-type nomenclature is Aph+, Aph^+ or Aph+ (Brian doesn't like to use wild-type symbols). Although, AphI seems to be incompletely dominant (minor expression in heterozygotes), so maybe aph+, aph^+ or aph+ for the wild-type?

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#112264 - 02/25/14 08:37 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Note that Db was NOT found in an exhibition RIR line (Malone 1975), not in a New Hampshire line (Smyth et al), nor in a Buff Minorca rooster (Brumbaugh & Hollander) - these researchers had the genotypes segregated out with test breeding.

Smyth et al. segregated out Db from Fayoumi (ER autosomal barred) & Buttercup (e^bc) fowl. Campo et al. segregated Db from Villafranquina (eb) fowl. Carefoot did some crossbreeding with Buff Rock bantams & believed Co & Db present, believed Co & Db in Sebrights, Db co+ in Silver Spangled Hamburg, but did not segregate out the mutations on to wild-type.

So it is important not to make assumptions on adult phenotypes alone (the same/similar phenotype can be produced from multiple genotypes), & there could be variation from line to line.

Ref (Db papers):
JAY W. MOORE, HENRY L. CLASSEN, and J. ROBERT SMYTH, JR.
Further Studies on the Db Plumage Color Locus in the Fowl
Poultry Science (1978) 57 (4): 829-834 doi:10.3382/ps.0570829
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/57/4/829.full.pdf+html

Jay W. Moore and J. Robert Smyth, Jr.
Genetic Factors Associated with the Plumage Pattern of the Barred Fayoumi
Poultry Science (1972) 51 (4): 1149-1156 doi:10.3382/ps.0511149
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/51/4/1149.full.pdf+html

J. L. CAMPO and C. ALVAREZ
Genetics of the Black-Tailed Red Plumage Pattern in Villafranquina Chickens
Poultry Science (1988) 67 (3): 351-356 doi:10.3382/ps.0670351
http://ps.oxfordjournals.org/content/67/3/351.full.pdf+html

---------------------
I'm not aware of any test breeding by geneticists of Game fowl with Db-like phenotypes (Ginger Reds, Pumpkin, etc), but Db-like ER brown chick down (black down changed to brown) & dilution/modification of e+ chick down typical of Smyth's Db descriptions is commonly noted by Gamefowl breeders.

Would be interesting to get hold of Ziehl & Hollander's ID Dun paper, as they extracted the mutation from a pit game.

Ziehl MA, Hollander WF (1987) Dun, a new plumage-color mutant at the I-locus in the fowl (Gallus gallus). Iowa State J Res 62: 337–342.

------------------------------
Also note that both Mh and Di mutations have been described as partial eumelanin restrictors, ie adding phaeomelanin. Eg, if you have a black-breasted red base patterned rooster (e+, eb, or eWh based) with a deeper red phaeomelanin than typically found in the Red Jungle Fowl, then you know the red enhancing mutation is NOT Mh (Mh adds phaeomelanin to both male & female).

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#112267 - 02/26/14 12:38 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
In the following Gunnarsson et al. 2011 paper:

The Dark brown plumage color in chickens is caused by an 8.3-kb deletion upstream of SOX10.
Pigment Cell Melanoma Res. 2011 Apr;24(2):268-74. doi: 10.1111/j.1755-148X.2011.00825.x. Epub 2011 Jan 25.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21210960

The Db mutation was extracted & sequenced from a Leghorn experimental line (Obese strain). The same mutation was DNA sequenced in:

- Friesian Fowl
- Fayoumi
- Westfalische Totleger

Need for someone to DNA test for Db in Games & Seramas

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#112269 - 02/26/14 02:28 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
I would love to see his pictures.

Brian seems to have found the "naked" E-hen!

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#112276 - 02/26/14 04:18 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 949
Loc: Germany

Originally Posted By: KazJaps


Would be interesting to get hold of Ziehl & Hollander's ID Dun paper, as they extracted the mutation from a pit game.

Ziehl MA, Hollander WF (1987) Dun, a new plumage-color mutant at the I-locus in the fowl (Gallus gallus). Iowa State J Res 62: 337–342.



I have digitalized it.
http://documents.kippenjungle.nl/#post12
_________________________

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#112306 - 03/02/14 08:23 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Thank you Redcap smile

I see that the ID dun pit game male tested by Ziehl & Hollander wasn't Ginger Red/Pumpkin based, but a pale Blue Red phenotype (turned out to carry both Bl/bl+ and ID, like a Platinum Red).

There was no mention as to whether homozygous dun ID/ID affected phaeomelanin tones (sounds like it didn't).

I might start another thread discussing the ID dun paper more (as not relevant now to this thread).

Thanks again.

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#113580 - 01/12/15 04:49 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Redcap]
coldfish Offline
Feather

Registered: 05/29/14
Posts: 21
Loc: australia
why are the above birds silver in the hackles and not red like the breast?

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#113584 - 01/12/15 08:36 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: coldfish]
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Either is their (otherwise gold) hackle diluted by a mysterious gold diluter or their (otherwise silver) bodies express so called autosomal red.

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#114614 - 07/17/15 05:37 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Henk69]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Henk69
I would love to see his pictures.

Brian seems to have found the "naked" E-hen!


There are some Silver Aph^I pullet photos on the following webpage by Brian Reeder "Visual “White” in Chickens":
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/visual-white-in-chicken-varieties.html

Pic 1:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-r5bY9F_mGGo/Uyooz5gujJI/AAAAAAAABbs/k-u-sK5-gm0/s1600/applusApfemale.JPG

Pic2:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nT_FdZoTl2g/Uyoo90OFA0I/AAAAAAAABb0/Skc4Kp-O6bs/s1600/Apapplushen.JPG

p.s. - on other web pages Brian suggests that there are two loci, one Aph (Autosomal pheomelanin), and the other "inhibitor of autosomal pheomelanin" (Aph^I).

Need to go, will come back to this...

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#114615 - 07/18/15 12:29 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: KazJaps]
Redcap Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 08/14/06
Posts: 949
Loc: Germany
So the Inhibitor of Autosomal pheomelanin (Aph^I) would be even an option to switch off (inhibit) persisting (atavistic) Autosomal red (Ar) in silver varieties?!
Quote:
By Brian Reeder: This gene inhibits the expression of autosomal pheomelanin and further helps to create the “clean white” that hobbyists desire on their silver varieties.
_________________________

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#114617 - 07/18/15 10:52 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
Here's that info suggesting that Brian thinks there are possibly multiple different loci, multiple factors:

The Expression, Suppression and Interactions of Autosomal Pheomelanin (Aph) in the Domestic Fowl
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com.au/2014/01/the-expression-suppression-and.html
Quote:
In my earlier work with Aph/S/e+, I chose at that time to describe the two major “platform” factors as ap and Ap+, or Autosomal pheomelanin and absence of autosomal pheomelanin, designating the later with a plus sign to signify wild type based on evidence that the factor derives from the Gray jungle fowl. However, further analysis of subsequent data shows that this is most likely not the case, but rather, that “ap”, now called Aph, and “Ap+”, now called Inhibitor of Autosomal Pheomelanin (Aph^I) are not alleles at the same locus, but are actually two different factors that may not even be found on the same chromosome.

Plus elsewhere he is suggesting that Aph (Autosomal Pheomelanin) is a wild-type factor found in all Jungle Fowl, & that Aph^I is a knockout mutation found in Gray Jungle Fowl, & introduced to Domestic fowl.


Plus he discusses the old term "Autosomal Red", that this is not what he was referring to with "Autosomal Pheomelanin".
Quote:
The visual effect sometimes called ‘autosomal red’ is the combination of those genes that enhance autosomal pheomelanin, making it deeper in tone and saturation. There is no gene ‘autosomal red’ as such, because this visual effect is the composite of multiple genes. Of these genes, the only one that is known and thus fairly well documented is Mahogany, which is often described as a eumelanic restrictor. However, its primary manifestation is to enhance the pigment saturation in the pheomelanic areas, with the strongest effect occurring on those areas of the body that are saturated with Aph.


P.s., he also writes the wild-type of Aph^I (AphI) locus as Aph^i (Aphi) (which is incorrect nomenclature, should be a plus sign, this confused by the misuse of uppercase/lowercase & superscripts with the locus name). Considering he thinks that "Aph" and "Aph^I" are not alleles of the same locus, Aph^I would have been better named something like: Iaph, then the wild-type could be iaph+ (iaph+), & this making it crystal clear that the inhibitor mutation is not an allele of "Aph".

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#114618 - 07/18/15 11:54 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red' [Re: Redcap]
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2799
Loc: Australia
There is also this article from Brian:

The Genetic Factors of Silver Phenotypes
http://brianreederbreeder.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/the-genetic-factors-of-silver.html
---------------------------

Originally Posted By: Redcap
So the Inhibitor of Autosomal pheomelanin (Aph^I) would be even an option to switch off (inhibit) persisting (atavistic) Autosomal red (Ar) in silver varieties?!
Quote:
By Brian Reeder: This gene inhibits the expression of autosomal pheomelanin and further helps to create the “clean white” that hobbyists desire on their silver varieties.


Who knows really, except the effects on that supposedly e+/e+ silver pullet, & others (eg e+ s+) that he has shown.

Unlike what Brian suggests in his articles, it is clear from many genetics researchers & exhibition breeders that Aph^I is not a common mutation in many clean silver domestic chicken varieties.

It's not in the exhibition Silver Duckwing MG bantam line I just purchased, it wasn't in the SL Wyandotte test bred by Moore & Smyth, not in the Silver Fayoumi, etc....
Yet Brian is saying that Aph^I is needed to produce clean silver in many silver varieties, not just Silver Duckwing (he includes Db, Co, etc based ones as well).

Quote:
When S is present instead of s+, along with Co and Db, and Aph, we see brassy silver laced with the palest area being the pheomelanin of the breast, while the rest of the pheomelanic areas are a cream to pale yellow. To secure the cleanest white in silver laced varieties, Aph^I must be present and homozygous, whether Db is present or not.


It seems he is going by phaeomelanin phenotypes only (not considering all specific mutation traits), as he also said that Db was in laced Wyandottes, that RIR were Db, not Co (some exceptions), misrepresents many of the traits of Di (no mention that it is a partial eumelanin restrictor, dilutes dermal leg pigment, etc), Mh, & so on...

So I find it very hard going reading his articles. I wish he would stick to hard data results, as he would have a wealth of information at hand from breeding these long-tails.

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