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#24347 - 04/25/09 04:39 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
These birds, none, have Mh.
I don't think the deep dark red shoulders in cocks whether S or s+ is caused by Mh unless on the red duckwing Welsumer of course.
Mh is a red enhancer, it works on both Ar+ and s+.
If both are not present there is no expression of Mh.
Just like a black enhencer Ml or diluter Bl. If there is no black in the bird there's nothing to enhence or dilute so no action of Ml or Bl.
To me the dark red shoulders (Ar+ & s+) in cocks are due to hormons. Otherwise the whole bird would be more red if Mh was present.
Mh does not work only on the cock's shoulder. Againt example Welsumer.

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#24348 - 04/25/09 04:49 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by chook-in-eire:
Looking for something else entirely, I stumbled across this 2003 post by Dr. Okimoto .
wink
Ah, the giants on whose shoulders were standing smile

Sigs, I knew you wouldn't disappoint us... wink

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#24349 - 04/25/09 05:05 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Found a photo of the other hen which is mom of Nut1:


She's also one of the founding ladies of the red silver wheaten without lacings (the nono cocoapop) with this cock:

Note the brown wing triangle of the cock.
Can anybody explain to me why it isn't white?

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#24350 - 04/25/09 05:15 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Even in pullets/hens Ar+ can be very confusing.
I know the pullet below is from Silver parents.



This is her brother:


(nice autosomal red lakenvelder pattern, lol)

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#24351 - 04/25/09 08:46 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
May I play devil's advocate?
Sigi, would it not be possible that you have bred in cream (ig) rather than having bred out autosomal red?
The birds pictured are very reminiscent of the Buff/Brown Leghorn X cream descendents described by Punnett in his 1948 article on cream plumage .

chook

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#24352 - 04/25/09 02:57 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Quote:
Note the brown wing triangle of the cock.
Can anybody explain to me why it isn't white?


Continuing with the cream hypothesis I suggest the wing bay is not white because he is not silver, but eb(?) and ig.

I have taken a screenshot of the crucial (IMHO) bit of text from Punnett's article.



Note especially the description of white edging in the male hackles and the observation that "though less intense, chestnut in Brown Leghorn remains chestnut in its cream counterpart" and "hen closely resembles a silver-grey".

What d'ye think?

chook

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#24353 - 04/25/09 03:56 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Very interesting chook.
There's been spoken of cream colour, not of white.
Is there a description of the chick down of those golden birds that look white/silver?
Is ig also expressed in chick down? Silver/platinum stripes instead of yellow?

How can I make the body feathers white?
Is that also Ig? Does it dilute the red/gold ground colour into white?
Now I'm only selecting for the less red.
There is no cleaning up at once as if a recessive starts to work because its pure. The red can only be removed by selection.
As we do in SL Cochin bantams as described on page 67.
That took also years. If its ig, you only need this gene pure (inbreeding) and your birds have no autosomal red anymore.
That would be great, but I never saw that happen... lol

This was my example, CocoaNut:


As you see, still remains of red in this bird.

I got this:

And he died of Mareks last year.

This below is CocoaFrost:


Do you think he is also gold with ig like the others above?
I don't understand it anymore.
Are there photos from the text you've posted?

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#24354 - 04/25/09 04:01 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
This is the original Capt. CocoaPop:


Some photo's of CocoaPatton, brother of Capt. CocoaPop:


He was the first who started to become white.

Imo ig is a diluter of sex linked gold.
When its not in the bird he looks like sand colour, when there is only Di. When ig is pure the hackle becomes straw to white.
Until now I've learned/understood you need ig to make yellow partridge as in UK Wyandottes, or yellow duckwing as in Dutch Bantam, OEG etc. It dilutes the golden hackle to straw colour.

For sand colour see lemon/citrus silkies I've posted before several times plus what happend when they were inbred (ig/ig).

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#24355 - 04/25/09 04:12 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland

I think this is ig/ig on a buff bird lacking Di.


These are the other way around, this is Di/Di, lacking ig.

Just thoughts....

(different light circumstances, the top photo is more lighter in real, its night so can't photograph that boy)

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#24356 - 04/25/09 04:41 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Sigi, best read the article (link above). There are chick descriptions of Buff Leghorn X cream and Brown Leghorn X cream as well as descriptions of Buff X cream males that look like silvers. But because it's an old journal it's not possible to copy and paste out of it, each page is an image file.
There are images of adult males as well but unfortunately they are B&W.

Night.
chook

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