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#24367 - 05/18/09 04:10 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 1148
Loc: Australia
interesting. i would guess this pullet will become more red when she moults into her second year (first year as hen).

maybe the columbian had mahogany in her and maybe the silver laced had autosomal red? or maybe the other way around and thus the 2 together produced the red?

i have birds similar colour in both wheaten and a rooster similar on eb that is henfethered.

k

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#24368 - 05/18/09 05:30 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Blackdotte Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/02/04
Posts: 913
Loc: Australia
Combining Ar+ ,Mh & S on a eWh background gives the Salmon (Mahogany Silver Wheaten) pattern of the Faverolle. It would be interesting to see the effect of the Pg Ml Co group on it.
David

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#24369 - 05/19/09 04:46 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
THis chick is from Silver Laced mother, there is no Ar+ in the SLs anymore, last one was in 2005, took years of selection.

The german columbian cock must have had Ar+.

There is also done a reciprocal cross, german columbian hen x silver laced dutch, these chicks don't show autosomal red.

For telling the reciprocals apart the german Co female x dutch SL male is done later, so those chicks are much smaller and still have chick feathers. Have to wait for them.

Here's another one: silkiesilkierama
Father split for choc F1 silkierama:
mon was eb/eb S/- Pg/Pg Ml/Ml black silkie
dad was e+/eb? S/S Ar+/Ar+ Pg/pg choc/choc serama
x another black silkie bantam hen (all silkie bantams are S)




unlogical comb: single again, thought silkie rose was dominant, in all other chicks its rose.

The eyestripe is e+ again?

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#24370 - 05/19/09 08:16 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Sorry to be a pain, but "there is no Ar+ in the SLs anymore, last one was in 2005, took years of selection." goes to the heart of Htul's opening question. If autosomal red was a single autosomal dominant gene it would not take years of selection to get rid of it.
I don't have any practical experience on this front but if it takes a very experienced breeder like Sigi years to select against this trait, I can only conclude that autosomal red is a polygenic trait and hence should not be termed Ar+.
My 2 eurocents worth.
chook

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#24371 - 05/19/09 05:59 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Perhaps the years were because of crossing with other birds like silver pencilled, cuckoo for type and size, as with Columbians from Germany this season.
When crossing with a strange bird, I can expect things I can't predict because they are not visible in the bird itself.
That's not only for Ar+ but also for side sprigs, weak health (not lice-proof or coccidiosis sensitive chicks) etc.

There are also chicks that don't show Ar+ (yet), perhaps its not in them, perhaps it will pop up later or perhaps in the next generations?

We're not breeding always with the same birds because line and inbreeding gives troubles in size, they become as small as pekin bantams, that's too small for the continental standard which is dominated by Germany, therefore large bantams necessary.
Pekins are HALF the size of continental cochin bantams.

But perhaps you are right. I can't tell because I did not breed with only related birds. So if we use the offspring of SL x columbian, we can expect to have to select against Ar+ in males and females for years again. But shure we'll use them because they are large birds. Just breed enough and cull a lot.

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#24372 - 05/19/09 06:06 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Some more, now Autosomal red silver birds enhanced with Mahogany, gives nice extreme effects, photographed last month in the US.



His brother with bad type but same colour but somewhat more diluted:


Detail:


I just continue with showing examples and collecting autosomal reds all over the world, LOL

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#24373 - 05/19/09 07:10 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 1148
Loc: Australia
sigi do you think these roosters are Ss+ or SS?

k

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#24374 - 05/20/09 01:18 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally posted by chook-in-eire:
Sorry to be a pain, but "there is no Ar+ in the SLs anymore, last one was in 2005, took years of selection." goes to the heart of Htul's opening question. If autosomal red was a single autosomal dominant gene it would not take years of selection to get rid of it.
I don't have any practical experience on this front but if it takes a very experienced breeder like Sigi years to select against this trait, I can only conclude that autosomal red is a polygenic trait and hence should not be termed Ar+.
My 2 eurocents worth.
chook
You have to think of epistatic effects like 2 doses of columbian suppressing autosomal red.
In an all purebreed columbian breed you would get the occasional purebreed Ar+/Ar+ (or a more potent mutation thereof as I suspect) that might be strong enough to show through. Most dominant genes are stronger in 2 doses albeit marginally, they would have to be called incomplete dominant if you are strict (eg. 1 dose 90%, 2 doses 100%).
To me "polygenic" is an excuse for not fully understanding the mechanism how things work. Of course things can be polygenic, no doubt.
Sigi is not talking about birds being attacked by a genetic bucket of red paint but also about tiny flecks of autosomal red. Things like that would not be thought of as "expression" by some.

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#24375 - 05/20/09 05:18 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Nice explanation Henk. I just continue to collect Ar+ in all kinds of expressions. I still don't fully understand it myself. Breeding it is like breeding blue, its segregating in all kinds of red shades. Did not find a connection with the e-allele in the roosters. For the hens, eWh allows an even spread over the whole bird, even when the eWh is almost white like the weird dilutions of dun or choc birds, like coffee cream.
It seems that autosomal red isn't 'salmon' but more of a kind of buff to brown, when a stand alone colour in a silver bird.

Karen, S/S roosters, they are with S/- hens also with red, less than this, in roosters due to hormons all reds especially on sex linked places are more strong. Will ask for photos of his girls, didn't make a picture of them.
Since the prices of flying are going down extremely (450 euro vice versa Miami) I consider to go back to Jerry for more photos and first make a plan what I want to show. First have to let my partner get used to the idea for a week US again, lol

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#24376 - 05/20/09 06:29 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Henk, I can asume the SL hen that was mated to the columbian rooster was free of A+ because when she's mated with one of the other SL roosters her sons and daughters are free of red flecks and the sons don't have dark brown/red on the shoulders.
That's the place where Ar+ loves to locate on male birds, probably due to hormons.

Why doesn't the columbian rooster show himself Ar+?
His other chicks don't show autosomal red, yet.
They are also less patterned. Mostly white with some double lacing, one Lakenvelder pattern, one purely white. In total left after culling (is giving to backyarders) 8.

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