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#24387 - 05/23/09 09:36 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Manok Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 638
Loc: Netherlands
Gorgeous!

But for the hen:
How would you get the tail and wing feathers white without dominant white, or Bl/Bl ?

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#24388 - 05/24/09 10:18 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 1148
Loc: Australia
same way as you do on a buff i suppose.

how do you get the whole bird red when it is a silver? it must be possible.

k

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#24389 - 05/25/09 02:00 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
Photos from Karen:
For the last cockerel, the black is pushed away by mahogany.
For the Pekins, I've seen this more often, have to look in my database for the photos. Saw it in a silver wheaten cochin bantam (same as pekin only larger). Its pure eWh S/- Ar+ nothing else, also not splash (Bl/Bl can cause this too). I have no explanation for the black going away. Perhaps there's no black present? You see that sometimes in Asian games, of which the silver wheatens even lack Ar+ and thus can look like whites with some dirt.
For the hen, one post higher with the red hackle, its the edge being white causing an optical white lace. Depending on the breed these 'hairs' can be longer or shorter or have flitter. The same for the cockerel, its the hairs on the hackle feathers that are white, same for the breast.

During making buff silkie bantams there was always black in the tails and primaries (Db/Db Pg/Pg). When breeding this out, they became white instead of black. Don't know why.

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#24390 - 07/05/09 05:41 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Htul Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 03/02/07
Posts: 495
Loc: Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by Henk69:
I believe there are at least 3 alleles, dunno how much genes.
1st allele the wildtype
2nd allele the palebreasted/non salmon breast type
3rd allele the enhanced type like in serama cocopop coloration

The 2nd type could also be het wheaten or het eb.
The red shoulders of purebreed silver cockerels could be mahogany involvement or another enhanced type of Autosomal red.
I have no trouble breeding intense salmonbreasted pullets and clean white shouldered S/S cockerels from the same parents.

I often get 50:50 ratio's cockerels with non red shoulders (all golden) and red/orange shoulders when crossing silver and gold dutch bantams. Small numbers though.
For quite some time, I never really fully grasped what Henk meant by his first statement in this response. But on pondering the whole "autosomal red" issue further, I think this is a very profound comment on the nature of "autosomal red".

I think the whole issue has been very much confused by making the expression of "salmon breast" and "enhanced red" allelically synonymous as "Ar+" (at least that has been my impression).

I quite agree with Henk's observations that the "lack of salmon breast" may not be to do with "Ar+" (or the lack thereof) at all - but purely by heterozygosity at the E locus. This is one of the things that has very much troubled me about the whole concept of "Ar+" - that if the theories about silver duckwing cockerels with no red shoulders were purely due to ar/ar or Ar+/ar - where have all the ar/ar hens with white (or gold) breasts instead of salmon been hiding? So personally, I have been very sceptical that the salmon breast could be explained by single gene involvement.

However, it really seems to me that most of the time, that talk of "Ar+" is referring to Henk's "3rd allele" of "enhanced red". I don't know enough of this nor have enough direct experience to have an opinion if this is single gene or polygenic - but a nomenclature query:

If this "Ar+" expression refers to an "enhanced red" state - and therefore, is not present in the wildtype - should not the terminology be "Ar" and "ar+", and not "Ar+" and "ar"???

Cheers,
Htul

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#24391 - 07/05/09 10:03 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Well, if the red jungle fowl have it, it should be called Ar+, if not then Ar.
One "camp" thinks the first, another small camp (me) thinks it is not. Why? because I think it is not present that much. Crossing wildtype color birds with silver columbians will not give red leaking silvers.
In cocopop, red is breaking thru the columbian restriction.

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#24392 - 07/05/09 04:58 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
My post of May 17 shows a columbian (from SL x Co) with red. Hen.
If the columbian cock is pure, and has no red, than the red must come from the silver laced mother which doesn't show a sign of red. I think its therefore interesting because this example shows a hen and not a cock and his shoulder red.
What makes this unknown red in the hen more red than the salmon light brown if there are no male hormons to enhance it?
Autosomal means on both sexes the same. Means it expresses the same no matter the sex. So go beyond the male shoulders.
Take a close look at the salmon breasts of silver hens. Some are orange incl. the back and wing bow. That is called rusty, just a fault, not enough culled. But what causes the extension of this unknown red on silver duckwing hens?

To me Ar+ behaves like blue, it segregates as hell, seems dominant in one dose and is very hard to eradicate once it enters a line of silvers, thus unwanted.
When its part of a pattern as we call it, it behaves the other way around from black. It comes into the feather from the body side, it withdraws from the edge of the feather back to the body.
When you have a silver laced with autosomal red and the autosomal red is not 'strong' enough (enough other red enhancers? or not pure?) you get optical a double lace.
Black or choc outer lace, white lace which is actually the silver feather, than red part.
In another variety the red dilutes when not enough present, see photos of my re-creation of CocoaNut (choc laced silver).
Why these different ways of red withdrawel? Pure red withdraws, and on the other it faints.

Suppose autosomal red was black and there is not enough to 'fill' the feather. Than you would have on one hand full black on half of the feather and on the other hand a grey feather when not enough black.
I think these different phenos are weird in this 'unknown' red.
The silver birds are only mentioned because we think its normal there is red in golden birds. It can only be shown on silvers to prove its not Mh nor s+ on S/- hens.

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#24393 - 07/08/09 10:47 PM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
RuffEnuff Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 1148
Loc: Australia
ok i have been having a think too.

perhaps in the presence of Pg (or some other restrictor/organizer) autosomal red is restricted and not able to enter the edges of the feather. if black, gold or silver is present it is allowed into the edge of the feather (or remains unaffected). hence you get red centres caused by AR and mahogany and silver lacing because there are not enough black enhances.

and thinking of Ml, perhaps it helps move the red away from the edge of the feather but does not show black when there is not enough black present.

so maybe Pg and Ml dogether push away Ar and mahogany from the edges and draw black to the edges but ig nors silver and gold that can settle where it is able. AR and Mh cover silver and gold. where there is say no Ml or maybe no Pg the AR and mahogany become sort of stippled (less solidified) with gaps allowing say silver to show through.

maybe this is another version of what sigi is saying. but here i think that it does not matter if the E allel is either eWh or eb.

k

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#24394 - 10/19/09 08:17 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
Htul...
Quote:
I think the whole issue has been very much confused by making the expression of "salmon breast" and "enhanced red" allelically synonymous as "Ar+" (at least that has been my impression).
I agree. The following is the traditional meaning of "Autosomal Red", ie Hutt's reference - red enhancers (I've copied the below from a previous post):

The following from Hutt, 1949 (Genetics of the Fowl: page 196) refers to autosomal red:

Quote:
There is an undetermined number of autosomal genes for red, which have not yet been satisfactorily analysed. Since the shades of color found vary from the light red, sometimes even approaching buff, found in New Hampshires, to the dark mahogany color of some strains of Rhode Island Reds, one would expect that a considerable number of genes affect the density of the red pigmentation
* Note Hutt also talks about "autosomal red or chestnut" color as ‘little affected’ in Cream (ig/ig) wildtype males (p191).

Likewise, Fred Jeffrey uses the term “autosomal red” for red enhancing mutations. He notes that Kimball found silver, wheaten, & a factor for dark red in Salmon Faverolle, therefore proposed the Salmon genotype as eWh/eWh S/S or S/- plus “autosomal red”. But Jeffrey also lists Silver Wheaten (eg as in OEGB) as eWh/eWh S/S or S/- ie not mention of autosomal red (ie ‘autosomal red’ is not wheaten salmon pigment).

I’ve listed the history of red enhancing genes in the following link:
http://www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000844#000009

Also, Jeffrey seems to think that there might be a red enhancing gene- autosomal red in Golden Duckwings, as these hens, although having the same silver neck hackles as Silver Duckwing hens, the golden hens are slightly different in wing colour (as described by the ABA Standard – ie brownish-black shades).

The following from rokimoto:
http://www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000480#000004

Quote:
Hutt was the one that came up with autosomal red. He thought that there were multiple genes involved in the autosomal red, but you can't rule out major genes. Mh is definitely a candidate for one of the autosomal red genes.
I.e., he follows Hutt's definition. So "Autosomal Red" traditionally means "red enhancer" or "phaeomelanin intensifier" etc. It does not traditionally mean "salmon" phaeomelanin, as found in e+ & eWh hens. 'Salmon pigmentation' is found in wild type hens, therefore is not a mutation, but the "red enhancers" as described by Hutt, are in reference to mutations, ie modifiers. Hence the confusion if the two terms are mixed.

'Autosomal" refers to genes or chromosomes that are not sex-linked. You can't really say that "salmon pigmentation" is autosomal, based on the expression of a single gene/mutation, ie Sex-linked Silver - S. For example, the following photo is of a e+ S - sex-linked silver hen and a e+ s^al sex-linked imperfect albinism hen (both alleles of the S locus).

From the following url -
Mutations in SLC45A2 Cause Plumage Color Variation in Chicken and Japanese Quail – Figure 1]

FIGURE 1.—
Chickens expressing the wild type (S*N), Silver (S*S), and sex-linked imperfect albinism (S*AL) phenotypes.


The above from the following research paper:

GUNNARSSON, U., A. R. HELLSTROM, M. TIXIER-BOICHARD, F. MINVIELLE, B. BED'HOM et al., 2007 Mutations in SLC45A2 cause plumage color variation in chicken and Japanese quail. Genetics. 175: 867–877
Full Report -link
------------------

I.e, s^al, is a sex-linked mutation that significantly dilutes the salmon breast of e+ wild type.

------------------
The following from Brian Reeder (onagadori, 2003), from the same The-coop thread as the rokimoto quote is taken from (Ron was responding to Brian's post)
http://www.the-coop.org/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000480#000003

Quote:
I wonder if "autosomal red" and mahogany arent the same thing, or at least alleles of the same thing. I wonder if the pheomelanic areas of the e+ and eWh hens arent the wild allele; and the darker red shoulder of the red jungle fowl, then would perhaps be a function of the wild allele (autosomal red), while Mahogany would the the mutation.
I think this is where Brian was working out his theories on autosomal red, etc. Ron's reply in short was that autosomal red = red enhancing mutations, therefore technically Mh - Mahogany (an autosomal gene) may also be called "Autosomal Red" also. I.e. "Autosomal Red" is a term, not a single gene. And the above quote also highlights where Brian was confusing salmon pigmentation in e+ and eWh hens as 'autosomal red'. The modifying gene that Brian found in the S Phoenix line is not a red enhancing mutation - therefore is not 'autosomal red'. It modifies expression of salmon pigmentation - ie inhibits/dilutes salmon pigment. It would be more accurate to name the mutation after this trait, ie as an inhibitor (and not after the wild type). Eg, something like: 'absence of salmon pigmentation', 'inhibitor of salmon', 'diluter of salmon', etc. I.e., Brian found the complete opposite of 'autosomal red', ie not an enhancer but an inhibitor.

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#24395 - 10/19/09 09:41 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2792
Loc: Australia
One further note. Maybe the following will highlight what has gone wrong.

Brian naming the mutation (& locus) in Phoenix (that inhibits expression of salmon pigment), as 'Autosomal Phaeomelanin' - Ap, is the equivalent of naming the silver mutation & locus as 'Sex-linked Phaeomelanin'. Why would you name a mutation & locus after the wild type phenotype?

I.e. there are two areas of confusion:

1: Confusing 'autosomal red' to mean wildtype 'salmon pigmentation' &

2: Naming a locus (& mutation allele) after the wild type phenotype, & not the mutation phenotype.
(* where using old nomenclature)

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#24396 - 10/19/09 11:43 AM Re: Clarification on 'autosomal red'
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
To me autosomal red is all red that's not sex-linked.
Autosomal red is as seen on whites both dominant and recessive.
Mh is a red intensifier, without red present Mh doesn't do anything, it is not a red colour itself.
Just like blue if there is no black present, it's there but doesn't express.

The colour of autosomal red is buffish. If there is any red intensifier (could be blue too, for some unknown reason) autosomal red changes shade.
In the standard colour varieties there are not many colours based on autosomal red. The wheatens are the only ones and silver orange shouldered duckwings.
The red in the e+ wildtype female is how autosomal red looks like unmodified, without diluters or intensifiers (on both silver and golden females).

Since there is no better example how autosomal red looks like, most reds are modified in one way or another, the salmon e+ female breast is the best example.
Old literature doesn't bring much light, there are hardly pictures of what's ment.
But the fancy defenitely is observing 'a' red, and that's not sex linked (gold).
Autosomal red is this unidentified red.
If its a single gene or not, nobody knows.
I see in the Serama lots of autosomal red that's modified. I'm most interested in the dilution of it. And about the shade, it behaves just like blue, segregating in lots of shades which can be directed in a certain way.
It will take a few years before we know what it is. Because nobody knows where to look, and where to look for.
Suppose it can be mapped, then we only have phenotype, so also for science its very difficult where to look for.
You need a test breeding in large amounts and F2 must give 'an' answer.
How should the question be formulated to science, how must the testbreeding be done, in order to tell science where to look for. All papers are based on breeding to a colour in order to map it. But only mapping, proving it exists, doesn't tell us breeders anything more.
We are the observers, we need to come with a consistant report/document how this Ar+ behaves. And we still don't know it exactly because what must we do in order to identify it?
Its all speculation about Ar+, we want to know how and why, and we're still confused. Literature study from KazJaps (THANK YOU AGAIN SO MUCH!) shows this.
sigi

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