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#28031 - 03/17/06 07:01 AM Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder

In 2005 I hatched a couple Barnevelder (sire) X Buff Orpington (dam). An unexpected broody gave me the chance to hatch a few backcrosses of one of the F1 (see Pic 1) to another Barnevelder cock. [I work only with large fowl double-laced Barnies]. I set 6 eggs, one poor thing got trampled on a week before the hatch; got 5 chicks now.

The BV sire I assume to be:
eb/eb; db+PgMl/db+PgMl; co+/co+; Di?/Di? (plus other melanizers and red enhancers)


The F1 dam I assume to be:
eWh/eb db+PgMl/Dbpg+ml+, Co/co+ Di/Di? (plus het. for other melanizers and red enhancers) - note the small spangles in the neck hackle, matching what Kazjaps describes. I can't decide what to call the faint pattern on the body: rudimentary spangling? rudimentary lacing?




I'm not sure about Di in Barnevelders. Brian Reeder was certain that they carry it, so until I know otherwise I'm going to cancel it out of the 'equation'.


So for the backcross there are the following possible basic combinations (disregarding possible crossovers for the closely linked Db,Pg,Ml) and what I reckon they might look like:


1) eWh/eb; db+PgMl/Dbpg+ml+; Co/co+;
-> rudim. spangling/lacing? like the F1 dam

2) eWh/eb; db+PgMl/Dbpg+ml+; co+/co+;
-> rudim. spangling? darker than 1) due to lack of Co?

3) eWh/eb; db+PgMl/db+PgMl; Co/co+;
-> single laced like gold-laced Wyandotte, the gold/red perhaps a little lighter

4) eWh/eb; db+PgMl/db+PgMl; co+/co+;
-> double laced like BV / Indian Game

5) eb/eb; db+PgMl/Dbpg+ml+; Co/co+;
->rudim. spangling/lacing like the F1 dam but a darker 'burnt-type' red-brown on account of eb/eb and Co

6) eb/eb; db+PgMl/Dbpg+ml+; co+/co+;
->rudim. spangling like the F1 dam but a darker brown-red than 5)

7) eb/eb; db+PgMl/db+PgMl; Co/co+;
-> single laced like gold-laced Wyandotte

8) eb/eb; db+PgMl/db+PgMl; co+/co+
-> double-laced like BV

These are the 5 chicks I got. Can you help me sort them into the above types?


Looking at them as "three rows", i.e.

.....A
B...C....D
.......E

I would think that A and C are homozyote eb; B and D heterozygote eWh/eb; not sure about E - could it be eb/eb with Columbia Co giving it the more cinnamon-like shade of brown?

B looks like the F1 dam as a chick in terms of base colour, colour and width of dorsal stripe, and the two little tick-marks on the forehead, so could be type 1. So how does chick D differ from this (note the darker head, more pronounced and darker brown dorsal stripe.

I doubt I have any 'type 8' chicks as the suspected eb/eb homozygotes don't have the dorsal stripes typical for Barnevelders.

Grateful for any input, corrections etc.. I'll add more pics as these get older.

BTW In the parental generation the BV roo is from quite a good laying strain (c. 180 eggs/year) and the BO did ok too at c. 125 plus broodiness for 60 days in April to June. Their above daughter (the dam) so far has proved nicely prolific with 39 eggs in 46 days. Something to be said for heterosis ...

chook

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#28032 - 03/17/06 08:18 AM Re: Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Manok Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 638
Loc: Netherlands
Hi Chook, nice experiment!

I don't have much experience with eb, so will not make too many predictions. My bantam barnies seem to be e+. Actually, they look very much like your chick D, with a "broken head stripe".

I am still not sure what this broken head stripe means, whether it's caused by eb + a modifier, or by e+ + a modifier, or whether its another e-locus altogether. I do know that "pure broken headstripe" chickens mated with pure e+/e+ , always give e+ type chicks.

I would not rate "chick D" as eWh/eb but as pure eb/eb , (with modifier?)

"Chick B" I would indeed also rate eWh/eb, or eWh/e+, if that's in your mix. (Probably not?)

BTW, I would be surprised if Barnevelders would have Di, but that's just a feeling that I have. None of my mixies has ever looked Diluted.

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#28033 - 03/17/06 10:41 AM Re: Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Hi Manok.
I knew a Barnie thread would grab your attention smile
I do remember the headstripe thread and your Bantam Barnie chicks. We never quite did get to the bottom of that did we? The best explanation I have for the difference in chick colour between the LF and Bantam BV still is that they were 'made' in a different way with e.g. RIR influence in the bantam version.
Why do you think yours are e+? Surely then they could not be double-laced. Actually I think yours are so light coloured they could pass for wheatens or buttercup.

I'm confident e+ is not in my mix. All pure Barnie offspring has the 'brown helmet' typical of eb and also, as far as I know, double-lacing only expresses on eb-brown and wheaten, nothing else.

As to Di, well...dunno. Brian reckons that both BV and Cornish definitely have Di.

chook

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#28034 - 03/17/06 10:40 PM Re: Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Manok Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 638
Loc: Netherlands
Yes Chook, you are right, if the topic starts with "barn", it does catch my attention better. smile

Is it? If you remove eb and substitute it with e+, there's no double lacing? e+/e+ Pg/Pg Ml/Ml means no double lacing?

I think that my idea that my Barnevelders having no eb comes from the few "broken headstripe" discussions there have been. Broken headstripe chicks are not typical eb chicks, that was clear.

And, I have 2 lines of Drents bantams, 1 is e+, and the other one has a broken headstripe. My thought is that why should "they" use 2 different e-loci for (almost) the same color line.

So if not eb, then perhaps e+ with a modifier?

And sure, bantams are only meant to look like the "big thing" once they're adult, and mixing in some different genes does not matter. My Barnevelder bantams lay also a very pale brownish egg, not very Barnie-like as well.

My chicks are indeed quite light, but there tends to be some variation. Perhaps your chick D is similar in lightness.

Though with 5 chicks its hard to say for sure, but given the fact that you've been working with purebreds, I also think it would be strange to see e+ in your mix.

Would you mind taking another picture of the broken headstripe chick? One that more clearly shows it from the side? I am "talking broken headstripe", but I do that based upon a mere glance of the back of its head. Perhaps I'm talking nonsense. smile

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#28035 - 03/18/06 02:24 AM Re: Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Hi Manok,
I will try to get a better shot of chick D today. It's not easy as we have a cold east wind blowing and they spend most of the time under mum...

As to the double-lacing: in the literature (Carefoot's Creative Poultry Breeding, Smyth in Crawford) reference is only ever made to double-lacing on eb and on wheaten so I presume the pattern can not be had on any other background. Carefoot also says that the e+ salmon breast stands in the way of producing a bird with a uniform feather pattern which is were eb and wheaten come in. So if your adult Barnies produce the double-lacing by rights they can't be e+.

I had another look at Carefoot re dominant dilute Di. He states that
Quote:
In adults only the females were noticeably lighter in colour than the standard wildtype. However, the chick downs of dilutes were very much diluted, as the name suggests, so that the normal striped down became very pale striped.
In that light, I doubt the double-laced Barnevelders have Di. Here is a pic of 4 little guys of my first hatch of 12 BV this year (from three different lines).

Sorry, the backstripe is already obliterated by the wee wings but in any case I reckon they are much to dark to carry Di? What do others think? Does anyone have chick photos of birds carrying Di on an eb background?

Here's a pic (from Feathersite) of Dark Cornish (i.e. the wheaten based double-laced Indian Game)

Again, it does not look like 'very pale striped' to me.
Any input much appreciated.

chook

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#28036 - 03/18/06 05:41 AM Re: Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Manok, I managed to get two pics, not great but perhaps useful.



What do you think?
chook

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#28037 - 03/18/06 09:24 PM Re: Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Manok Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 638
Loc: Netherlands
Hi Chook,

Thanks for taking the efforts of taking a few more pics. You can really see they're suffering in the cold wind. smile

I would really rate them as eb/eb, and not eWh/eb.

To start with Dilute. I believe that the picture below demonstrates (a bit) the effect of Dilute. Both the middle chick, as well as the one on the bottom are eWh/e+ , and the one in the middle has also Dilute:


I don't have other samples than this, but I believe this demonstrates the "pale stripes" as a result of Di.

Sure, my Barnies are very well double laced. So then we can almost certainly assume that the "broken headstripe" chicks are eb.

Perhaps the following could be a sample where e+ stands in the way to create a "uniform feather pattern":

(Though this hen looked as a chick as a mix between e+ and "broken headstripe".)

I have now some Wyandottes which are truely brown-helmetted, but further I've never had "brown helmets", but a lot of "broken headstripes".

Your Barnies are clearly darker than mine, lets assume yours have another darkerner besides Ml. Perhaps that's even the darkener which shows up in your "Chick C". Just guessing...

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#28038 - 03/19/06 01:39 AM Re: Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
Hi Manok, thanks for the pics.
Quote:
I would really rate them as eb/eb, and not eWh/eb.
I wouldn't think so, because it (the 13:41 post photos depict just one chick) does not have the eb/eb 'helmet', and also its base colour is much lighter than the 3 brown ones.

The Dilute pic is very interesting. Yep, that's how I would have imagined the effect from Carefoot's description. Thanks for that. What are they?

The feather markings in the third pic show, I believe, what the fanciers term mossiness, i.e. not a clear pattern but a lot of black ticking in the brown. What kind of breed/mix is she? What Carefoot was refering to re "uniform feather pattern" was also the salmon breast of the e+ I believe, i.e. the body could perhaps be patterned but the breast would remain salmon, ergo no uniformity of pattern over the whole body.

Quote:
Sure, my Barnies are very well double laced. So then we can almost certainly assume that the "broken headstripe" chicks are eb.
Not necessarily. They could also be wheaten or eb/eWh (in which case they would segregate in the F1 so rather unlikely). Look at the Dark Cornish chick further up. They will also be double-laced as adults.
Colourwise it's a terrible photo but don't the head markings look very much like your Barnies?
Here's another (nicked) pic of Dark Cornish chicks:


and two adult hens:



I'm more and more convinced that your Bantam Barnies are wheaten.
The double-laced Bantam BV were bred from a small, delicate LF hen paired with a Bantam RIR (wheaten based) and later Bantam Gold-laced Wyandottes (eb/eb), Bantam Langshan (presumably E/E) and Indian Game (ey/ey or eWh/eWh) were crossed in. So it is quite possible that there are wheaten lines of the Bantams.

My 2 bytes worth
chook

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#28039 - 03/19/06 08:25 AM Re: Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Manok Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 638
Loc: Netherlands
Chook, this is all very interesting to talk about...

Quote:
I wouldn't think so, because it (the 13:41 post photos depict just one chick) does not have the eb/eb 'helmet', and also its base colour is much lighter than the 3 brown ones.
smile I disagree with you here. I don't believe the "helmet" is a "must" for eb/eb chicks. Esp after the last few postings, I think that these "broken headstripe" chicks are eb. This then probably means eb plus a modifier to cause this head striping.

If not eb + modifier, then it "must" be e+ with a modifier. (But in your case that cannot be true.)

The lighter color of your chick could be caused by other factors, such as the lack of melanotics, or the addition of Dilute.

I will now jump to the end of your post:
Quote:
I'm more and more convinced that your Bantam Barnies are wheaten.
I don't have a huge amount of knowledge, but I don't believe that wheaten chicks would have striped backs. Can they have? I don't have the scientific books, but aren't pure wheaten's always supposed to be one-colored cream brownish chicks?

"At best" they would be recessive wheaten, because when I mix my barnies with e+ chickens, the resulting chick has the e+ "design".

Here are 5 Barnies + 2 half Barnies:


The half Barnies are a mix of Barnevelder and Drents. The Drents mother was a mix of an e+/e+ Drents and a "broken headstripe" Drents, and had the e+ design as a chick. (Thus also there, the e+ design is dominant.)

So 1 mixie got the e+ design, and another mixie got the Barnie design.

Quote:
but don't the head markings look very much like your Barnies?
Sure, I fully agree. I know these are supposed to be recessive wheaten, but again, doesn't a chick design like this exclude wheaten? And, why would it be okay for wheaten chicks to be so enormously variable in "design", and not eb/eb chicks, where you want to exclude eb/eb "just" for having a head stripe? Those Cornish chicks confuse me a bit... smile

Quote:
Thanks for that. What are they?
These are one of the two "own" chicken breeds I am working on. A normal size chicken, perhaps a bit welsumer-like in appearance. Lots of breeds and mutts have gone into a melting pot, and now I'm slowly working my way out of this "mess". (And doing nice discoveries along the way.)

Quote:
What kind of breed/mix is she?
It's a booted type hen, though my booteds are again a melting pot of mutts, and also here terribly much interesting things have happened. Currently a bit less, because I am slowly getting them more homozygous for the important traits.

Just for fun, here she is:

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#28040 - 03/19/06 02:17 PM Re: Barnevelder x Buff Orpington backcross to Barnevelder
Chook-in-Eire Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 733
Loc: Ireland
I did a bit more checkin' up.
This tidbit is from the archives:
Quote:
eb down chicks do not have the wild-type stripped head; mostly brown down often with some light stripping on the backs, but the heads lack the normal striping and the chicks usually look like they are wearing a brown helmet; eb birds
sometimes have broken eyestripes in the presence of Db
.
So you could be right, it could be eb with Db and perhaps Di. But I still think they look more like the Dark Cornish than the 'typical' eb/eb.


Quote:
I know these [the Dark Cornish] are supposed to be recessive wheaten, but again, doesn't a chick design like this exclude wheaten? And, why would it be okay for wheaten chicks to be so enormously variable in "design", and not eb/eb chicks, where you want to exclude eb/eb "just" for having a head stripe? Those Cornish chicks confuse me a bit...
Well I can't pretend that I'm entirely clear on this stuff, far from it smile . I am not excluding eb/eb on the basis of it having a head stripe - it doesn't. The darkish dorsal stripe does not run up the back of the head the way it does in wildtype chicks. eb chicks are also quite variable.

Here are some chick pix of different eb breeds. While most of them have the 'helmet' not all do, depending on modifiers. What they however have in common is that the dorsal stripe does not extend onto the head.

Patridge Cochin eb/eb Pg?


Partridge Silkie eb/eb, db/db, Pg/Pg


Partridge Wyandotte eb/eb, Pg/Pg
- could not find a picture


Buff Brahma eb/eb, s+/s+, pg+/pg+, ml+/ml+, Co/Co


Golden Laced Wyandottes eb/eb, db+/db+, Pg/Pg, Ml/Ml, Co/Co (so apart from Co very close to BV)


These Golden Laced Wyandottes however don't look quite as 'helmet-clad'.




contd.

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