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#29307 - 03/25/09 03:50 AM Re: Brahma project
Manok Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 638
Loc: Netherlands
Dan, these are also very nice! Well done! This gives inspiration to all other people who are working for years on a new breed or color. (Which probably means at least half the people in this forum.)

Are your birds heterozygous or homozygous for dominant white?

What are the differences in the way the overall colors look between heterozygous and homozygous ones?

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#29308 - 03/25/09 06:08 AM Re: Brahma project
Hen-Gen Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 1135
Loc: Island of Fetlar, Shetland
Stunning work and, as has been said, also inspirational. Congratulations!
_________________________
If you have nothing............
......... give it away!

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#29309 - 03/25/09 06:24 AM Re: Brahma project
Anonymous
Unregistered


TimJ, thanks for the words of encouragement. Breed development and history is a big interest of mine, so naturally I commend all those who so doggedly uphold breed standards. We should all grateful to them. But so to our hobby and poultry industry would be nothing without the likes of mavericks such as Sir John Sebright. I see breeds as fluid things and I see breed standards simply as the baffles that help 'steady' the gene pool. I guess I just happen to find tributaries to be more fun than ponds. smile

Thanks Manok. I have yet to use a rooster that produced no gold-laced offspring. But I hatch hundreds of chicks and my hatches are well over 80% buff-laced, so some of the hens are likely homozygous. I am pursuing this particular project from more of a population perspective in that I don’t put too much emphasis on creating that one perfect buff-laced specimen. In short, I don’t know which birds might be homozygous. I have thought about doing some test-matings and forcing them down the path of homozygosity for color pattern and brahma type, but since my selection concerns have also been for longevity and production traits, I have avoided the temptation to create any sort of purely aesthetic ‘selection bottleneck’ for them that might overly reduce the genetic integrity of the flock. I have always assumed that the lighter colored birds are homozygous, but I can’t say for sure. As clear as mudd, I know.

Thank you Hen Gen for your kind words.

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#29310 - 03/25/09 09:43 AM Re: Brahma project
Big Medicine Offline
Chicken

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 91
Loc: Ohio USA
Dan, welcome to the discussion,(and forum)
I was aware of your project from the FeatherSite Brahma page. Glad you came aboard, I have been very curious what route you had taken to achieve your results. Very nice birds by the way. Interesting, other than the Ameraucana, we used the same foundation breeds. Technically,I did not use Wyandotte in the silver laced line,but you can bet it is in the Silver Laced Cochin's background. As far as the blue/gold line,which does have direct Wyandotte blood. I should have blue this year,and splash in next years hatch. I think we should be able to work something out.

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#29311 - 03/25/09 03:30 PM Re: Brahma project
Big Medicine Offline
Chicken

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 91
Loc: Ohio USA
Dan,
I am curious as to cornish stock involved, was it the short show type. That was a p.i.a. to get around the short legs for me, but man, the heads that came with it.

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#29312 - 03/26/09 06:19 AM Re: Brahma project
Anonymous
Unregistered


Big Medicine,

I have to say that I was thrilled to see your silver-laced bird photos. I really would like to obtain some blue/splash gold-laced brahmas from you for my project - as well as some silver laced birds when you have some available. I have not added new blood since I began this project, and while my birds are plenty strong and are egg laying machines, this flock could benefit from some very upright, and “browy” brahma-esque blood.

I intentionally created two lines simultaneously – with the intent of crossing them down the road. One is a blend of Cochin and Ameraucana and Brahma, and the other is a blend of Brahma, Cornish, and Wyandotte. The Cornish I used were a McMurray hatchery line and were long legged and looked very small. I had a lot of split wings and twisted flight feathers in this line and likely culled much of the Cornish blood out. My one line is slightly narrower in type and the other is a nice size, but is still too cochin-like for my taste. Last year I crossed the two and this produced my best birds this year. Now that I know that there are other laced Brahmas in existence, I may completely blend the two lines to create one large flock.

For some time I corresponded with a couple breeders in England and in The Netherlands that wanted to create their own buff-laced brahmas. I recommended that they cross Jubilee Indian Games with gold-laced Cochins and also cross their blue partridge brahmas with some buff-laced Wyandottes (I wish I had these to work with) and then cross the two lines. Like you, I thought that starting with the Brahma’s closest relatives made the most sense.

If you have an interest, I could pair up some gold-laced birds this year to produce some eggs for you - so you’d have more blood for your blue-laced red project. I’ll try to get some pictures.

Dan

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#29313 - 03/26/09 11:30 AM Re: Brahma project
Black Sheep Offline
New Egg

Registered: 03/25/09
Posts: 3
Loc: Kentucky
cool
Hiya, Medicine Man!

I finally found those magnificent birds you had told me about on the phone. Oh, I'm the "Goofy" Secretary of the best breed club in the world, the American Brahma Club, and we chatted a bit about your wonderful project the other night.

I am absolutely fascinated by those Silver Laced birds! I just love the heads, and as you had explained, that has to be where those ladies got their wide skulls, that are so sought after by Brahma breeders.

I look forward to seeing any other photos you may have, and if you get a chance, why not post them on our web site for the club? It's located at:
www.americanbrahmaclub.com , and it's supposed to be able to take member photos now.

As you probably know, we had to move our Website from its original MSN base, but we're learning as we go.

Thanks again for the photos and for working so diligently on this project. Please make a habit of documenting each and every aberration and defect, as well as the almost-perfect specimens you raise. The more paperwork, the easier it will be to get this gorgeous variety accepted in the Standard!

Plus, if you decide you'd like to show these birds at a sanctioned show, they are eligible to receive awards as high as Best of Variety. Ask for a copy of the show report, as this is evidence that they were shown and were not disqualified for any General Defects, as outlined in the Standard.

Give me a yell when you can, and please feel free to e-mail me with any more photos. My e-mail address is: henshaven@localnet.com.

Thanks!

Yours in the fancy,
Sandy

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#29314 - 03/28/09 08:26 AM Re: Brahma project
Big Medicine Offline
Chicken

Registered: 03/18/09
Posts: 91
Loc: Ohio USA
Dan,
I would like to see your gold laced birds. I do not have any experience with dominant white,does it have effect on the tone of gold, or only the black lacing. I would be glad to help, providing blood for your project. I too find relief in finding a kindred spirit who has undertaken a project so similar to mine. What would crossing really good SQ buff Brahma into your lines at this point do ? Besides messing with your lacing for a few generations,decreasing egg production, and slower maturity. I see this in my blue/gold lines future to improve type and clean up the lacing.

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#29315 - 03/28/09 05:42 PM Re: Brahma project
Anonymous
Unregistered


Big Medicine,

I would love to find some massive SQ Brahmas – ideally both blue partridge and buff columbian. I’d breed the two together and then use the F1 with some of my buff-laced birds. I don’t show, but my eye does like big, tall, massive birds with an owly brow. I admit to being cautious about breeding to a show standard that might compromise these birds’ utility. The SQ feathering is actually way too soft for the windy hill I live on. It doesn’t so much hold heat as act like a wind sail in this neck of the woods. smile

I don’t worry about messing up the laced pattern – or getting set back a few years – as I am way further ahead on this project than I imagined I would be by now. My main focus really has been on dual-purpose utility. That may seem a bit weird considering I’m playing with one of the most ornamental fowl patterns in the fancy. I just think that our livestock were meant to be more Rolls Royce (expressions of self and ‘beautility’) and less McDonalds (over billions served). I digress.

Dominant white does reduce the gold. I have some gold-laced cockerels that are brilliant deep mahogany (which would work well for you), but some that are much paler than the typical gold-laced standard. I’ve had buff-laced pullets that started feathering up almost pure white that ended up near perfect buff-laced birds. Some of my buff-laced cockerels have deep red shoulders, and some have an even ‘buff columbian’ toned buff throughout. As I’ve mentioned - for this particular project - I am trying to shoehorn a ‘Rolls Royce’ into a ‘Farmall’ sort of lifestyle. So, my selection process is a bit like trying to fill my shopping cart with a nice healthy balance of Mozart and meat and potatoes! smile

BTW, have you explored the ALBC’s buckeye project at all? It presents a great hands-on way to select for utility. I will find an URL for you if you want it.

I will try to get you some photos of my gold-laced birds. I wasn’t able to hatch until late in the summer – and this winter has been the worst in 15 years - so this spring’s youngsters are still looking pretty unkempt this spring. However, I purposely breed some of my oldest birds (three years old) in order to select for longevity, so some of the old gold-laced girls that have made ‘the cut’ (by shear will to live) are still around and looking better than many of last fall’s hatch at this point in the season.

Dan

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#29316 - 04/05/09 07:50 AM Re: Brahma project
Anonymous
Unregistered


This is a 9 month old golden laced Brahma pullet that I am retaining for my buff laced project. She is very tall, but still lacks a bit in substance.


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