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#30175 - 07/09/08 09:42 AM Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
:rolleyes: I have not found any on the web . There are new breeds of dogs being developed continuously like it or not. It would be nice if we could plan a breeding program on paper from past experience of others as we do here , because with dogs "I" can not eat my mistakes and culls. eek
Does anyone know of such a forum ?
confused please let me know
seedyseeds@hotmail.com

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#30176 - 07/09/08 10:59 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Rhea Dean Carter Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/24/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Tennessee
I'm going to allow this thread to stay for a short while. Therefore, if any of you have information for this member, please provide it before the thread is deleted, since it's a non-poultry realted thread.
_________________________
Rhea Dean

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#30177 - 07/09/08 12:20 PM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
D. Honour Offline
Flock Leader

Registered: 07/31/06
Posts: 292
Loc: New York
The general rules for breeding applies to most animals and birds and is universal.Depending on what it is you are working on,much can be substituted.Genetics are different but even with that there are some similar ones.I notice mice,cattle,horses,dogs,cats,etc.;having dilute color genes among others.In some parts of the world dog cats and rats are considered good food.

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#30178 - 07/09/08 01:58 PM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Hen-Gen Online   content
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 10/01/05
Posts: 1135
Loc: Island of Fetlar, Shetland
I found Littles 'The Inheritance of Coat Colour in the Dog' to be a useful book.
Silver Grey Weimaroodles, anyone?
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If you have nothing............
......... give it away!

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#30179 - 07/10/08 01:33 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Hi,

These guys were smart enough to pick the dog genetics calcuator I developed with help of dutch genetics expert Marjolein Roosendaal:

http://www.brillwood.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2908

Maybe they can help.

Other dog genetics websites:

http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

http://www.mastamariner.com/border_collie_colours_page-02.html

http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/ColorGen.html

http://www.leabashiba.com/German.Shepherd.Dog.coat.colours.htm

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#30180 - 07/10/08 05:40 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Norwegian Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 08/31/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Norway
Henk;

Can't seem to get the last link to work?

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#30181 - 07/10/08 06:58 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
What browser do you have?
It is not the most accurate page anyway... wink

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#30182 - 07/10/08 08:12 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Rhea Dean Carter Offline
Lord of the Fowl

Registered: 07/24/03
Posts: 1379
Loc: Tennessee
The last link works fine for me.
_________________________
Rhea Dean

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#30183 - 07/10/08 09:23 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
Thank you for your help. I was wondering more about when crossing a Saint Bernard with a German shepard you get a dog taller than either parent a dog that looks like a Great Dane almost . But when you cross a Saint Bernard with a Great Dane you get a slimmer Saint Bernard type. so how would I breed the largest dog in the world if I wanted to ? confused

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#30184 - 07/10/08 11:30 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Mountaintop Chicken Offline
Feather

Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 31
Loc: Vermont
It seems there would be some inherent problems with breeding "the largest dog in the world" A few thoughts:

1. Giant breeds have shorter lifespans as it is. Which is very sad for the owners who keep and love them.

2. There are already some massive breeds out there - how much larger would you want to go?

3. There is so much involved in breeding dogs with sound structure - hips, elbows, etc. Very good breeders worry a great deal about this. If you increased size, you would have to do that while still maintaining a sound structure. Also, the best breeders of the dogs you would want to use as a foundation probably wouldn't want to sell you intact dogs, since most really good breeders who are concerned about their breed require contracts that prevent/limit/put conditions on breeding.

4. As you said, with dogs you can't eat the culls. Given the amount of unwanted and homeless dogs out there, dog breeding is very different from breeding chickens. Could you find homes for all of the dogs you produce while trying to get the end result you want? What would be the selling point/market?

Why not find a massive and already existing breed to dedicate yourself to? I bet there are breed forums for specific massive breeds where you could learn a lot about that particular breed, and get good info from breeders.

It's an interesting question to speculate about though - I have no idea how you'd go about breeding a dog like that.

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#30185 - 07/10/08 12:34 PM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
:rolleyes: My main interest is in " creative genetics " itself . this is agreat forum for poultry . gardenweb has one called hybrids that is great for plants , I am also interested in all other aspects of genetics including breeding pets , livestock , they are all interrelated and the same principles apply in many cases. I would like to know what can be done before I decide what to do .
As for unwanted culls "if you can not drown do not breed". There are new breeds starting up all the time so mine would be just one more .I could use help in finding: hog breeders forums,cattle breeders forums , sheep breeders forums ,goat breeders forums or any others wink Thank You All

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#30186 - 07/11/08 12:19 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Here's my new Cattle Coat Color Calculator:

http://home.hetnet.nl/~h.meijers69/kruisingkoe.html

http://home.hetnet.nl/~h.meijers69/kruisingkoe2.html

I know of a dutch cattle breeders forum. Dutch is a worthwhile language these days.

If you want a biiig dog: cross with the (polar) wolf. The wolf is bigger than most, if not all it's domestic breeds.

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#30187 - 07/11/08 11:11 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
Thank you for all your help. how tall is this wolf ? there is a great dane that is 42 inches high at the shoulder and I think there was a St Bernard that was over 300 pounds . I may resort to wild breeds but wild crossbreeds are outlawed in some states so it would be a last resort . There is also a wild dog called the Dhole that can jump 18 feet but i am told that they can never be tamed . eek

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#30188 - 07/11/08 11:12 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Volklet Offline
Chicken

Registered: 12/05/05
Posts: 108
Loc: Scotland
I have been using your Dog Calculator Henk - it is very good, but I can't work out how I mated an Isabella to a Wolfgrey and got two Black & Whites, one Dark Grey and three Saddlebacks?

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#30189 - 07/12/08 01:28 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Volklet,

heterozygotes is the answer.
irish spotting s^i is recessive,
saddle a^s is recessive to wolfgrey a^w
Dominant black K can hide the permissive wildtype allele k.

Like this:
http://home.hetnet.nl/~h.meijers69/kruisingHond2.html?mgt=A:a^s/a^s,B:b/b,D:d/d,K:K/k,S:S/s^i&fgt=A:a^w/a^s,S:S/s^i

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#30190 - 07/29/08 09:30 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
:rolleyes: I did find in a P.B.S. program on dog genetics that a genetist in Russia was asked by fur farmers to help them breed a tamer strain of foxes . He succeeded ;but at the 9th or 10th generations of breeding from only the tamest in each generation, the ears flopped down the colors and coat patterns changed (including a dalmation type pattern), and they began to bark (not a fox trait ) this was because the gene for tameness was close to the gene for these other traits .this may be why the "Giant White Sully" chicken was also so aggressive .THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR HELP.

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#30191 - 07/29/08 11:15 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
I think he crossed with little dogs...

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#30192 - 07/30/08 12:46 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Sigi Offline
Ruler of the Roost

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Holland
I though the Irish wolf dog is the biggest.


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#30193 - 08/04/08 08:36 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
just how big is the polar wolf ? height and weight please eek

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#30194 - 08/05/08 01:23 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
The largest of approximately 41 wild species of canids, gray wolves vary in size based primarily on geographic locality, with southern populations generally smaller than northern populations. Total body length, from tip of the nose to tip of the tail, is from 1000 to 1300 mm in males, and 870 to 1170 mm in females. Tail length ranges between 350 to 520 mm. Males can weigh from 30 to 80 kg, with an average of 55 kg, females can weigh from 23 to 55 kg, with an average of 45 kg. Height (measured from base of paws to shoulder) generally ranges from 60 to 90 cm.

see: http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/accounts/information/Canis_lupus.html

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#30195 - 08/05/08 03:02 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Norwegian Offline
Coop Keeper

Registered: 08/31/03
Posts: 523
Loc: Norway
Quote:
I did find in a P.B.S. program on dog genetics that a genetist in Russia was asked by fur farmers to help them breed a tamer strain of foxes .
Actually, it was a scientific breeding program that went over a number years to see what selection for "tameness" would result in. The issue of course, was early domestication of dogs.

See link (Pdf): An Experiment on Fox Domestication

and here: Early Canid Domestication:

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#30196 - 08/07/08 12:13 PM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
The Irish Wolfhound was the tallest breed for years at 36 vinches high at the shoulder . however the tallest living dog is a Great Dane at 42 inches at the shoulder. eek thank you all for your help . laugh

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#30197 - 09/05/08 08:47 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
As far as having enough breeds already and so many in shelters destroyed, they have been saying that for years, decades even; and there are many more breeds today than there were in 1970 when I wanted to start this project. Five million dogs a year are destroyed because of behavior problems. They picked the wrong dog for the wrong family. Dalmations have pretty spots, but they need to run 10 miles a day (not an apartment dog). If you can stop me, I would not be worth anything as a breeder anyway. If I could get an animal from a shelter that was in breedable condition and with papers when applicable, I would at least consider it.

I am looking for a male calico cat (only 1% of calico cats are male ). I have found 15 in different shelters and all refused to sell me one unless it was sterilized. "If I cannot breed them, I do not need them." That is my motto. I want progress from each generation toward a better breed, NOT JUST A PET!

I believe I could outdo Louis Dobberman in breeding the supper dog. If I had not been discouraged by people (including experts) such as Dr. Nixon, a world renouned geneticist in the 1980's, I may have already done so.

Thank you anyways, and thank you for all your help.

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#30198 - 09/06/08 01:30 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Henk69 Offline
Moderator
Classroom Professor

Registered: 02/13/06
Posts: 3208
Loc: Netherlands
Calico cat males are XXY. You probably know that.
That's not a healthy chromosome composition.

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#30199 - 09/11/08 10:09 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
They usually are XXY but there is also a "false male calico " that is auburn , orange and white that is not .

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#30200 - 10/10/08 10:01 AM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
Seedy Seeds Offline
Coop Cleaner

Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 240
Loc: Massachusetts
Actually even if XXY male calicoes are defective there are many breeds that could be called defective in cats : rag dolls , twisty cats . Even Siamese cats had crossed eyes and a kinked tail in the beginning . In the process of eliminating these defects they developed : Himalayan , Tonkenese, and Russian blue cats as a by product :rolleyes: . Besides for pure research purchases I would like to see if the very rare male calico could breed true .

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#30201 - 10/10/08 08:17 PM Re: Dog genetics forum?something like this
John Bro Offline
New Egg

Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 7
Loc: Canada
There is a difference between gross chromosomal abnormalities (such as an extra x chromosome, as in an xxy "male") and a homozygous recessive that has been selected for and eventually fixed (such as the other examples you give). An xxy male will not breed true - it isn't really even a true male.

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