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#33865 - 02/18/05 09:31 PM Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2895
Loc: Australia
I was just looking at some of the American hatchery Lakenvelder day-old chicks, eg

McKinney Hatchery:
http://www.mckinneypoultry.com/id118.htm

McMurray Hatchery:
http://www.mcmurrayhatchery.com/product/lakenvelders.html

Stromberg Hatchery:
http://www.strombergschickens.com/stock/large_fowl.htm
(can't really tell what the leg colour is in these

I realise these are hatchery stock, but still, found it interesting that some of the day-old chicks appear to have some pigment to the feet. The last chick photo at Feathersite, seems to have pigmented feet also (unless just the lighting):
http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGK/Lakens/BRKLakenvelder.html

The following is a UK Lakenvelder chick.
http://www.surrey.ac.uk/~cus1fb/pictures/lakchk1.jpg
This one has non-pigmented legs, but I've noticed one of the adult birds on the website has white legs, not slate
( http://www.surrey.ac.uk/~cus1fb/pictures/lakmale.jpg ).
Most of the others do have the slate legs though:
http://www.surrey.ac.uk/~cus1fb/fowl/pictures.htm

So not sure if all chicks have non-pigmented legs in this stock.

Anyone have Lakenvelders, and can you enlighten me on day-old leg colour in your stock?

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#33866 - 02/18/05 11:51 PM Re: Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
CJR Offline
Coop Master

Registered: 07/16/02
Posts: 8503
Loc: Montana
Don't know about Lakenvelders, but my little Dutch chicks legs hatch pinkish yellow and begin to turn blue during the first week, but are not hatched with blue legs. Since the color is layered, it may take a little while for the correct pigment to develop. CJR

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#33867 - 02/25/05 08:38 PM Re: Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't know about Lakenvelders either, but I've often wondered to what extent that day-old's leg coloring identifies leg color genotype.

Question: I have white marans (recessive white cc, sex linked barring, BB)that have males and females with identical pinkish/white leg coloring. Why doesn't the females have the darkly shaded front shanks which is so commonly seen in day-old cuckoo marans, due to sex linked barring on Id "inhibit dermal melanin"? These birds don't appear to have mottling or dominant white parents. ...and I hear that recessive white is not suppose to effect leg color, or does it?

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#33868 - 02/26/05 10:43 PM Re: Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2895
Loc: Australia
Thank you for the replies.

I was checking out these hatchery day-old chick photos, noting the leg colour of various varieties. The gold-laced, silver-laced, buff-laced, silver spangled varieties in Sebrights, Hamburgs & Polish, & the Fayoumis are supposedly ER (birchen) based. Therefore, the day-old leg/foot colour will more than likely be pigmented. The Lakenvelders are supposed to be eb (brown) based, so I was expecting these to be non-pigmented. I noticed the black-creasted white day-old polish chick at feathersite, also has a hint of pigment in the feet.
http://www.feathersite.com//Poultry/CGP/Polish/BRKPolChix.html

Anyway, was wondering if in the Lakenvelders (& Black Crested White Polish), whether the extra eumelanisers were affecting day-old leg colour in some lines, &/or whether some were ER based, not eb. There is also the idM (Massachusetts dermal pigment) gene, where day-olds have pigmented legs. So several possibilities.

Musaland, it is with leg colour genetics that I tend to find the most "exceptions" to common rules & to what is documented in "Poultry Breeding and Genetics". But even within this book, they note the variation. E.g. Millefleurs, Buff Mottled (with dominant white), etc, all have the mottled gene, yet blue/slate-legged, & I've seen photos of slate-legged Red Pyles (with dominant white) & blue/slate-legged Wheatens. Leg colour tends to be a polygenic trait, so I suppose no surprise there is alot of variation.

<<and I hear that recessive white is not suppose to effect leg color, or does it>>
With my birds, recessive white reduced the slate leg colour shade a little, in both the d'Uccles & Orpingtons, but not dramatically. I have noticed one of my white orp hens has lighter leg colour. She is Blue (Bl/bl+) also. The splash orps are lighter in leg colour again, so may be an acumulative effect. I segregated id+ in a roo from the Orp line, but they may be heterozygous (hard to tell in E & some ER lines, due to epidermal pigment). There is variation in expression of epidermal pigment with ER based birds. All my ER & sex-linked barred heterozygotes & hemizygotes (B/b+ or B/-) have non-pigmented legs as adults, in both my d'Uccles & Japs. No surprise with my Japs, as most ER non-barred have very little pigment in legs also, but the E or ER non-barred Black d'Uccles (id+) have very dark slate-black legs (including Black Mottleds). I did breed a couple of barred buff columbian (non-mottled) dUccle pullets last season, both with white legs (non-barred siblings -slate legged). So it doesn't appear to be just the combination of mottled & barred producing white legs in my barred d'Uccles, ie the barred gene the main difference.

I bred my first B/B mo/mo ER/? barred mottled cockerel, which at this stage is mostly white plumage, with a little barring. He probably will develop more barring as he matures, going through the heavy mottling stage. I'll post a photo of him with his brother (B/b+), to show the marked difference between B/B mo/mo & B/b+ mo/mo, as noted in the Hutt book, with Ancobars:
Hutt: Ancobars (p 211)

Heterozygous Barred, Mottled Blue (ER/? B/b+ mo/mo Bl/bl+)





Homozygous Barred, Mottled (ER/? B/b+ mo/mo)



There is a little difference at this stage in leg colour between the two. The B/b+ bird has some remnant epidermal blue along the scales, yet the B/B is paler.

Heterozygous Barred (B/b+)


* I expect he will lighten with age.

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#33869 - 02/27/05 08:58 AM Re: Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi KazJaps,
Thanks for the info. There is a possibility that my whites have mottled, which would remove the dark shading on female day-old chick's shanks. I might work on looking for that. My desire would be to have my Whites have sexable shank color as day-old chicks, like the Silver Cuckoos do. I don't know of any other breed that has this, unfortunately.

The issues about Lakenvelder's leg pigmentation is interesting. Determining causes of light or dark shanks gets complicated. There are just too many variables involved... e-locus, Id, I, momo, cc, etc. Hard to pin down just what is the major influencer there.

Then there's the additional issue of yellowish leg pigmentation, ww. Why do some day old chicks show a yellowish leg pigmentation which then develops into a non-pigmented leg color as they mature?

Does day-old chick leg color provide a special viewpoint into genotype as oppose to mature chicken's leg color? One example, sex-linked barring on Id shows the dark shading on shank fronts of B- as oppose to BB. This dark shading on B- seems to dissappear as the hen matures. What other genotype clues can be derived from day-old chick phenotypes?

I'm especially interested in (wW+). Does the yellowish shanks on day-old chicks indicate heterozyous autosomal white skin? Just a though.

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#33870 - 02/27/05 10:32 PM Re: Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2895
Loc: Australia


It sounds like you are referring to epidermal pigment, as found in E & ER (ie, dark shading in day-old chicks). The epidermal pigment will be expressed, regardless whether id+ or Id. All my Japs are Id. Most of the Jap ER lines have yellow legs, no (or very little) epidermal pigment in the roos, but some ER hens have very dark willow legs (epidermal pigment), others yellow or dusky yellow. For some reason the epidermal pigment is expressed more in the hens (ie sex-influenced). Probably tied up with the genetics of gypsy face (occurs more in hens) & plumage eumelanin enhancers (a connection with white plumage undercolour in blacks, etc to lighter legs & face). May be a hormonal influence. Ml (Melanotic) is a sex-influenced gene also, where heterozygote roos show less expression to heterozygous hens (a good example is solid black ER X BBRed e+ first crosses, where Ml/ml+ roos show more pheomelanin in hackles than hens).




Maybe an accumulative effect. The recessive white d'Uccles I had were genetically Black Mottled also c/c mo/mo (or possibly Lavender Mottled). These had the epidermal pigment as day-olds & dark blue/slate legs as adults. The epidermal pigment is one tool I use in determining the E locus in recessive whites (if without sex-linked barring). The only influence I've seen of mottling (mo/mo) on leg pigment, is if there is excessive white in foot feathers/down. Probably more to do with the modifiers distinguishing between Exchequers & good Mottleds, than the mottled gene alone (polygenic effect). Who knows, the yellow/mottled legs of Anconas may not be due to the mottling gene, as solid Black Leghorns have yellow legs also. I noticed yesterday, a Black or Grey ER Jap day-old chick with yellow legs, no epidermal pigmentation. It has alot of white in the down. A line of Black Mottled d'Uccles I had, produced very dark downed & legs day-old chicks, with very little white/cream- only on chest (adult plumage very good, small v-shaped mottling). The non-mottled siblings had solid black down. So whatever causes the differences in E & ER (non-mottled) down pattern (ie black/cream ratios), also influences day-old leg colour. Bill will probably know more on this, with his Black Pekins. I've never taken note in the day-old Japs, but it might be possible to sex day-olds in the darker ER epidermal pigmented hen lines. But I've got a feeling some of the cockerels may start with some pigment, gradually getting lighter with age.




Not that I'm aware of. I haven't noticed a way to tell in my W+/w d'Uccles (yellow skin a flaw I'm trying to breed out). CJR's Dutch bantams I assume are W/W white skinned, but have yellowish shanks as day-olds. I think this is mostly due to diet- carotenoids (eg corn, greens, marigolds, etc) & good health (some diseases influence skin colour, eg coccidiosis, etc). I remember a comment by a commercial free-range egg-layer farmer, saying it's not just the hen's access to pasture, but natural-light that influences egg quality. I think D Caveny may have mentioned previously that yellow skin phenotype may be produced in genetically white-skinned (W+/W+ & Y+ sex-linked white skin), by diet.

I came across a study on yellow pigment enhancers (eg for skin colour, yolk colour) recently at the Lohmann's website:

FACTORS WHICH INFLUENCE PIGMENTATION
http://www.lah.de/fachinfos/lohmann_info/englisch/l_i_24_article_4.pdf

There is a leg pigmenter (for yellow legs) product available here in OZ. The label reads similarly to the section in the above article, on importance of dietary nutrient balance. It's probably not well known to the average back-yarder that excessive amounts of calcium in the diet may reduce yellow pigment in skin & yolk colour (well it was new info to me until I read the label wink ).

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#33871 - 02/27/05 11:36 PM Re: Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
Anonymous
Unregistered


So you can see the female day-old's dark shaded front shanks on willow legs. Here's a pic of dark shaded front, yellow shanks on Dominikers
Feathersite\'s Dominiker Chicks .

Interesting theory on the dark down color/leg color on day-old chicks. It just seems that, with so much interest in sexable day-old chicks, that much information regarding this must be documented somewhere. A book written about sexing day-olds by feather color, shank front color, white head spots, eye stripe pattern, slow feather growth, etc. (and associated genotypes) would be very well received.

Regarding yellowish tints on day-old legs, I think that there is more to it than diet (but that "calcium influence" article is really interesting, thanks). I've seen cuckoo marans chicks from a trio with pinkish tints legs and also with yellowish tint legs. All grew up to have standard white legs. Why this yellowish tint occurs; I don't know. But some of those pullets are heterozygous white skin (I'm trying to eliminate the yellow skin genes from the line). Anyway, I'm always looking for shortcuts to identify wW+.

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#33872 - 02/27/05 11:37 PM Re: Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2895
Loc: Australia
Forgot to add this website on d'Anvers:

http://www.antwerpener-bartzwerge.de/

In the left column, click on the "bildgalerie" link, then the British flag, & varieties in English will come up in the right hand column.

There are good photos on various slate-legged varieties, eg Buff Mottled (Dominant White & mottled), Pyles (Dominant White), Millefleurs, Porcelaine (mottled) etc. There is some variation in leg colour with the Cuckoo hens, some white, some light slate. The solid Buffs also have slate legs, so maybe don't have the Gold Dilute gene (Di), which is known to dilute leg pigment. The Whites have dark blue/slate legs also (white-legged is preferred in the OZ & UK Standard).

p.s, whatever you do, don't "right click" "ctrl + C", "edit - copy", etc to copy links, etc while in the photo gallery. They have set up annoying cripples, that not only stop copy/paste from their website, but between all other programs you have open, ie not just from their website (until you close their website).

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#33873 - 02/28/05 12:12 AM Re: Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
KazJaps Offline
Classroom Professor

Registered: 08/30/02
Posts: 2895
Loc: Australia
<>

The following is an excerpt from the article:
Quote:
Although a mature hen lays one egg almost every day, the egg, and in particular the yolk, takes 15 to 21 days to form. The yolk mass grows by having new layers laid around it. These layers can be clearly seen in hard boiled eggs in the form of so-called concentric rings.
Due to this process, any change in the feedís pigment content and therefore any incorrect blend can be ascertained very quickly......

.......After a depletion period the birds were given a feed supplemented with 20 ppm of synthetic red pigment. Eggs were collected over a ten day period, the first egg at the start of the pigment supplementation of the feed. All eggs were then boiled and the colour of the yolk judged visually. A slight reddening of the yolk can clearly be seen as early as the second day after the addition of pigment, present as a narrow outer layer. From day 9 onwards, the yolk appears to have taken on a uniform colouring.
So you have to watch the diet, keep it uniform before laying & throughout the clutch, if determining whether a correlation between day-old yellow pigment to heterozygotes (W/w+). I hope you do find a correlation. It would come in handy. wink

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#33874 - 02/28/05 08:05 AM Re: Lakenvelder day-old leg colour
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by musaland:
[QB... A book written about sexing day-olds by feather color, shank front color, white head spots, eye stripe pattern, slow feather growth, etc. (and associated genotypes) would be very well received.
[/QB]
To answer my own question:
Caveny mentioned, in a past post, the Autosexing Annuals and the Autosexing Breeds Association. The books (or magazines) may be hard to find, from around 1969 as stated and earlier, but very interesting reads.

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